the lock fetish

To me a knife is a tool, and I want to have a tool that will get the job done in the safest way possible, therefore I carry a lock blade knife. I use it in the same manner I would "any" folding knife with special attention paid to where the sharp edge would end up if it accidentally folded.
But I have to say, I am surprised at the thinly veiled amount of sneering going on for those that like a little extra safety when using their knives.
<----- SNIP ------->
Over the years I have cut myself with knives and all manner of other tools as well. Now I am damn picky about the tools I buy an will spend the extra money for worthwhile safety devices on them. I want the safest piece of gear I can get and I never buy junk. Period. That includes knives.
Well put Robert, and on that note I would like to hear from those of you that have actually had a lock blade fold up on you which brand and model it was, and whether it was your fault or the knife's. I would like to see a sort of "Hall of Shame" for these special knives.
For the record I have "never" had a lock blade fold on me accidentally, but I believe in buying quality for any item that is capable of causing me harm. ;)
-Bruce
 
CRKT folder was what got me, and it was my fault. I certainly hope that no one thinks I am sneering at lock blades, I have a few myself, traditional style and the "black tactical" kind, both of which I like and use. What struck a chord with me was Carl's observation that some folks (including me in my previously mentioned incident) don't learn and rely on a lock when they are doing something that they shouldn't, and in my case I knew better. We go to great lengths to teach Scouts how to properly handle knives, and some parents undo that training because they once had a slipjoint close on them accidentally. So have I, and I am sure most everyone here has too.

My comments relate to my experience with boys who haven't had that slipjoint experience, and then rely on a cheap gas station lock knife to allow them to do something they shouldn't, and then we're off to the hospital. Also, I am sure the reason many Scout Council camps disallow fixed blades because some Scouts did something dumb and managed to hurt themselves, so to keep insurance premiums to reasonable level (these are Scouts we're talking about here, they're learning about blades and fire and firearms among other things :D), they forbid their use.

I would rather a Scout learn the limits of a slipjoint, which teaches that a knife is a cutting tool, not a poking, stabbing, hacking prybar. And I have seen a cheap lockback let go, the boy involved was lucky.
 
Well put Robert, and on that note I would like to hear from those of you that have actually had a lock blade fold up on you which brand and model it was, and whether it was your fault or the knife's. I would like to see a sort of "Hall of Shame" for these special knives.

I've had an Emerson mini A-100 fold after tapping a wine bottle with the spine. Came as a surprise; I've never had any other locking knife close on me that I can recall.

There's something that I don't think anyone's mentioned yet: a lock allows some additional design freedom with the knife.

For example, a blade hump with jimping on a Spyderco allows you to push down and forward on the top of the blade with your thumb to dig into a cut, which can be really convenient&#8230; but the lock and choil are the only things stopping it closing when you do so, because you're exerting exactly the kinds of forces that are intended to close a slipjoint.

And my T-Mag makes it very clear that that is the case &#8212; it bends like a wet noodle when you try that, even though the shape invites it, because the magnet is like a weak slipjoint. The choil makes it kinda safe, but only barely. Not a hard-use knife! :D

I suspect this is why traditional folding knives don't have jimping or humps like that, and locking knives and fixed blades do.
 
SNIP limits of a slipjoint, which teaches that a knife is a cutting tool, not a poking, stabbing, hacking prybar.

Don't say that on the Becker or Busse forum. Yikes!!

Junk tools are just that, junk. They have no value. They get people hurt, they are a waste of money, and they can make one feel as if they have a real tool in their hands inspiring a false confidence in the junk piece. Not just talking about knives, here.

At Christmas I bought my 13 year old nephew a new knife for Boy Scouts and general camping, and saw that he had bought himself a cheap liner lock folder that should have been beat to pieces with a hammer to keep anyone from using it. I made him promise me: No more cr@p knives. I told him if he wanted dangerous junk, he was on his own and I wouldn't buy him another piece of cutlery. He was surprised, but I think he understood.

And Bruce, as far as seeing a quality locking knife fail, I personally have never had that happen. I thought I had worn out a favorite old Browning lockback when I couldn't get it to secure properly after a few years of use, but it turned out I had a large gob of lint in the blade notch. A minute with a toothpick and it was good as new.

I have seen a lot of the gas station/junk sporting goods knives fail, (as in most of them) but never have I seen a Buck, Schrade, Kershaw, Browning, Queen or any others of that caliber fail.

Robert
 
Most alleged lock-failure on traditionals must be as a result of spine-whacking or other ridiculous antics. When people do that they may as well save time and stab themselves directly.:D

I wouldn't touch a Traditional liner lock that has no backspring as well. Böker's Copperliner has this arrangement and it's lethal.:eek::thumbdn:
 
I've had an Emerson mini A-100 fold after tapping a wine bottle with the spine. Came as a surprise; I've never had any other locking knife close on me that I can recall.

My Fox linerlock folder (Italian brand) folded easily while tapping it against tabletop. Therefore I treat it the same as a slip joint. Can't see the point making a locking knife this flimsy, it is an accident waiting to happen.

Propably I will just demolish it. Bad choise. I know this maker has also good knives, but this one was not one of those.
 
And Bruce, as far as seeing a quality locking knife fail, I personally have never had that happen. I thought I had worn out a favorite old Browning lockback when I couldn't get it to secure properly after a few years of use, but it turned out I had a large gob of lint in the blade notch. A minute with a toothpick and it was good as new.

I have seen a lot of the gas station/junk sporting goods knives fail, (as in most of them) but never have I seen a Buck, Schrade, Kershaw, Browning, Queen or any others of that caliber fail.

Robert

Robert, the knife that I saw the immediate bloody aftermath of failure, was a Buck 110 folding hunter. The knife was laying there closed on the floor in a nice little puddle of blood with the severed index finger of the young fool who thought it was a chisel. The knife was not that old, and seemed to be in good shape. However, being pushed past the point of abuse, it let go. They say that seeing something first hand is a great teacher. It was something I will never forget.

I'm glad that you've never seen a quality knife fail. Count yourself lucky that you've never had to pack a still warm human body part in ice so the EMT's could take it with the victim to the ER. But ti's foolish to think that they will not fail if abused, and unfortunately, the limits of human stupidity can be quite low. If the foot pounds of torque on the back of a blade exceed the pounds of force put out by the lock spring, and there is any wear or dirt in the lock, then you have a situation for failure. It does happen. I once saw a family member toss a old Case swing guard hunter into the bay because it had gotten worn to the point that it was dangerous. The blade would fold like a slip joint at any pressure on the spine.

I don't think it was any accident of fate that in the old days, the lock blade never was very popular among working class like the jacks. Plain old slip joints were the rule of the day. The barlow was certain one of the kings, and there were teardrop jacks, harness jacks, sleaveboard jacks, and many more. They had lock backs around. They had them in the 1800's. So then why were they never as popular as the slip joints? It seemed like if a pocket was not enough, a "hunting knife" was brought out and used. Most of the old catalogues had tons of jacks, but relatively few locking blade knives. But they had "hunting" knives.

I won't argue that a good lock on a blade makes the knife safer. Of course it does. But...I think if one is introduced to knives with a lock blade, and never has to learn good knife handling habits, that person is at a disadvantage, and even may be an accident waiting to happen if something fails. A little wear on the corner of a locking bar, a little lint in the notch, anything, and you have a lock that will fail. I think this is why in the old days, a pocket knife was just that; a pocket knife. It wasn't a stabbing weapon, zombie slaying tool, survival knife, or any other teenage fantasy thing like now. I read some of the posts in the general section and it's too sad to be laughable, how many young guys now think thier super duper ninja tactical knife is some kind of excalliber. They have unreal expectations, and the manufactures seem to encourage this mindset with outrageous claims in advertising. The days seem long gone that a father sits down with his son and gives him his first knife, and shows him how to safely use it. Now the kids learn from video games and knife magazines that are really worthless. With no fatherly influence, or grandfather, scout master, too many kids are believing what they see and read. This, combined with the miracle locks that are advertised with barbell weights hanging from them, are a recipe for a future disaster to some kids fingers. But that's the knife market now. Manufactures are in the business to make money, and I guess the real world has little to do with business. But there is just no way, any lock on a knife, is going to put it anywhere in the neighborhood of being as safe as a fixed blade. No way. If someone is concerned about a knife folding, then just stay away from a folding knife. But if all you want is a cutting tool for the pocket, and not a staying, prying, poking, zombie slaying wonder blade, then a slip joint pocket knife is fine. There must be a reason they have been popular for hundreds of years. But it's a free country, and we can make our own choices. But they have to be educated choices not driven by advertising from people who's sole interest is making money.

Carl.
 
I don't think it was any accident of fate that in the old days, the lock blade never was very popular among working class like the jacks. Plain old slip joints were the rule of the day. The barlow was certain one of the kings, and there were teardrop jacks, harness jacks, sleaveboard jacks, and many more. They had lock backs around. They had them in the 1800's.

I'm not so sure. This could be a matter of economic cost and local culture. My understanding of the history of the Spanish Navaja was that it was commonly carried in that culture in that time. My understanding is also that a part of the appeal of the Navaja was it's dual use as working knife and concealed weapon. We should not sanitize the popularity of the Buck 110, or current EMT/tactical knives in the same way. Sales of the Buck 110 were as much driven by biker gangs and the military as they were workers. The Spyderco knife made a huge hit among EMTs who could justify a knife for rescue but who not allowed to carry guns. Useful to have a scary looking weapon when entering a situation before police back up. And the general US market is definitely marked with larger concerns of self-defense and concealed weapons. Just look at the pop up adds on this site.

Regarding the cost issue, my understanding of the etymology of the term "jackknife" is that it is related to the older English term "jackleg" - referring to low wage workers who could only afford inexpensive in adequate tools leading to shoddy work. Jackleg meant, roughly shoddy or crooked or untrustworthy.


Most of the old catalogues had tons of jacks, but relatively few locking blade knives. But they had "hunting" knives.

I think a part of the larger US cultural shift towards city life is a general disfavor of fixed blade knives. I suspect it goes even deeper in the US and suspect that every day carry of fixed blades disappeared from EDC use as agricultural culture displaced frontier culture during the expansion westward. Hence, fixed blades became synonymous with "hunting knife" for a while and folding knives like cowboy knives and sodbusters appeared.

I won't argue that a good lock on a blade makes the knife safer. Of course it does. But...I think if one is introduced to knives with a lock blade, and never has to learn good knife handling habits, that person is at a disadvantage, and even may be an accident waiting to happen if something fails. A little wear on the corner of a locking bar, a little lint in the notch, anything, and you have a lock that will fail.

These are all really good points. One thing I keep in mind is that different designs fail in different ways. It's practically impossible for a collar lock (like Opinel) to fail catastrophically short of breaking the knife outright. They *CAN* fail with warning if the lock ring begins to creep around to the open position. In contrast, both lockbacks and liner/frame locks can fail catastrophically with little or no warning. In terms of general robustness and safety, I rate the designs as follows:
1) collar locks (e.g. Opinel)
2) lockback (e.g. Buck)
3) Liner/frame locks (e.g everybody and their uncle)

My beef with liner locks is my tendency to bump them.

But there is just no way, any lock on a knife, is going to put it anywhere in the neighborhood of being as safe as a fixed blade. No way. If someone is concerned about a knife folding, then just stay away from a folding knife. But if all you want is a cutting tool for the pocket, and not a staying, prying, poking, zombie slaying wonder blade, then a slip joint pocket knife is fine. There must be a reason they have been popular for hundreds of years.

I think this is a bit overstated as an either or.

I group my use of knives into 3, not 2 groups.

LIGHT, SIMPLE CUTTING - a slip joint or friction folder is fine for this and often preferred owing to the fast open/fast close. I often use my Opinels without the lock engaged for this reason.

STABBING, PRYING, CHOPPING - This is hard work that I'll only attempt with a fixed blade. I totally disagree with the assertion that knives shouldn't get used as a prying tool, btw. So did/does the Army, hence the design of the Ka-Bar. It's a utility tool.

HARD USE - This includes cutting out sapplings, clearing out gardens, working in my shop, cutting down boxes. In this case, I know better than to abuse the knife as a pry bar because it's a folder. But, I'm also working long enough and hard enough that I might get sloppy and bump a blade hard enough to close a non-locking knife. This often happens when cutting out brush. I get the blade stuck and twist it a bit to get it out. Dangerous with a slip joint, not so abusive that will cause a locker to fail. In this mode, locking knives are safer, at least to my mind.
 
Robert, the knife that I saw the immediate bloody aftermath of failure, was a Buck 110 folding hunter. The knife was laying there closed on the floor in a nice little puddle of blood with the severed index finger of the young fool who thought it was a chisel. The knife was not that old, and seemed to be in good shape. However, being pushed past the point of abuse, it let go. They say that seeing something first hand is a great teacher. It was something I will never forget.
Thanks Carl, And sorry to hear about that poor fellas bad luck. "But" IMO using the knife as a chisel falls squarely under the category of abuse and or stupidity.
A good lock blade also requires a bit of preventative maintenance, or at least the occasional inspection to insure that it's still working properly. You wouldn't drive your car through town with suspect brakes would you?
midnight flyer said:
Junk tools are just that, junk. They have no value. They get people hurt, they are a waste of money, and they can make one feel as if they have a real tool in their hands inspiring a false confidence in the junk piece. Not just talking about knives, here.
I remember when my Dad was alive having this same conversation with him. He was really happy with the price he had got on a cheap socket set. When I grumbled about the poor quality, he said it was only to keep in the car for emergency use, to which I replied allow me to describe the emergency. OK, your car throws a fan belt 50 miles from anywhere, but you have your emergency set of tools with which you can fix the problem. You are trying to loosen the half inch nut to make the adjustment but the emergency tool is so cheap that it slips off the nut and you crack your knuckle splitting it wide open. You are now bleeding profusely and the car still isn't fixed so you can drive somewhere to get help. Now you have an emergency. All my Dad could say at this point is you're right. ;)
-Bruce
 
just tested my newish buck 110 to see how strong the lock is by tapping the back of the blade on a old tree stump, and it closed! now the blade has even more play, I'm going to send this piece of junk back. is this normal?
 
Samon, how new?

In a word, no, it is not common. Buck is fanstastic in terms of warranty work and will make it right, no doubt.

There has been discussion about some QC issues at Buck over the past year or two, possibly linked to their move to their Idaho plant. There is a thread regarding vertical play issues in the Buck sub-forum currently. It has the attention of both the head Buck's customer service and QC. You might want to repost your experience there.

Note, a part of this depends on how hard you struck the blade. It is possible to dent the part of the blade that engages with the lock. Possible to dent the lock itself. Possible to damage the pivot bushing. Possible to damage the pivot pin. Also possible to introduce lateral wobble. I've had 3 relatively recent Buck lock backs develop vertical play from hard straight cutting. I suspect they are using softer bushings to give a smoother action, but that's entirely speculation on my part. Buck is investigating and I'm hopeful we'll hear from them soon.
 
Thanks Carl, And sorry to hear about that poor fellas bad luck. "But" IMO using the knife as a chisel falls squarely under the category of abuse and or stupidity.
-Bruce

My point exactly!

If the young idiot in question had not had a sturdy, invincible in his mind, Buck knife, would he have risked such behavior? No. If he had a slip joint pocket knife, he never would have been tempted to abuse it in that manor. Just before lunch, when he was seen doing this, he was told to knock it of. His answer was, "It's a Buck knife!" as if that excused everything. He didn't heed the warning and just after lunch he chopped off his index finger by being stupid. He went out on a limb because he had faith that his Buck knife would not fail him. He paid a heavy price for his stupidity in both pain and loss of the job. After he got out of the hospital, he was fired for violating shop safety rules, so he lost a good job as well as any chance of a reference for future employment.

I can only wonder how many people have been cut because a lock failed. Too many people put too much faith in devices. A lock on a blade does not make up in the long run for bad knife handling habits. If every young boy got a slip joint as his first pocket knife, I think there would be less accidents. Liner locks are a big one for failures, but lock backs fail on occasion as well. Yes, they need some preventive maintenance for lint removal and such. But unfortunately it's human behavior to take things for granted after a while. Honestly, how many of you do a walk around on your car before you get in and drive off? Check to see if the brake lights and turn signals are working? Really? Most of us take it for granted that everything is okay and pull off soon as the engine is running. Same with knives, guns whatever, we get lax after a bit.

If your cutting brush and you are worried about bumping a knife blade hard enough to close it, you're using the wrong tool. Again, if you are beyond the light everyday common tasks of a slip joint, then why not use a sheath knife? In the garden or any heavy duty use, I've become a huge fan of the mundane red handle Swedish mora number 1. The 10 dollar puuko design is about as fool proof as you can get, rugged construction, and a free swinging scandinavian style sheath that the knife just drops back into as easy as it pulls out. Can be pulled and used while wearing heavy work gloves, and no joints at all to fold or gather dirt and debris.

People can use whatever they want, it's a free country. But there's just no way I see a lock on a knife as much of an advantage in real world use unless we're talking risky negligent behavior and bad knife handling practice. But then, lets face it, a great deal of the locking blade knives are marketed as weapons. As you said, lets not sanitize the histoy of the Buck knife. So many times I see the post, "What's the best knife for self defense" or "I may need that knife if someone gets on me" type of posts. If we're talking weapon, then it's a whole other subject, for a whole other forum. I guess it's a sign of the times, and I'm dating myself, but in my younger day, a knife was seen as strictly a punk's weapon. To a large degree, that is still my view in general. If I need a wean, a knife does not figure much into things. To me, a knife is a working tool, and a couple of blades in one small package does most of what I need to do best. Slip joints have the unrivaled advantage of having a couple different cutting tools in a single package.

Carl.
 
just tested my newish buck 110 to see how strong the lock is by tapping the back of the blade on a old tree stump, and it closed! now the blade has even more play, I'm going to send this piece of junk back. is this normal?

Nature is not on your side. When you tap the back of a lockback gravity overcomes the spring and unlocks the knife. The knife is not failing. The blade tap came into being for testing linerlocks, it is useless for lockbacks.
 
Nature is not on your side. When you tap the back of a lockback gravity overcomes the spring and unlocks the knife. The knife is not failing. The blade tap came into being for testing linerlocks, it is useless for lockbacks.

maybe, but the blade has loads of play, out of the box it had enough to make me weary of abusing it. Now after a light and I mean not enough to break a nut tap it closes. Maybe the knife pro's won't call this a fail, but I do. The buck knife is known for being a tough old girl that will last, mine certainly isn't doesn't feel like that. Maybe it's faulty? My guess is, and so is the supplier I justr ang who said they will return it for repairs/replacement. Not only did it have lots of side play but there was a 1mm or so gap in the back slab/spring section. This was also said by the supplier to be a fault. The knife now has more side play and a flimsy vertical play that is just unacptable ina ny knife costing this much (£50). Not to mention the poorly finished/uneven edge grind..

Samon, how new?

In a word, no, it is not common. Buck is fanstastic in terms of warranty work and will make it right, no doubt.

There has been discussion about some QC issues at Buck over the past year or two, possibly linked to their move to their Idaho plant. There is a thread regarding vertical play issues in the Buck sub-forum currently. It has the attention of both the head Buck's customer service and QC. You might want to repost your experience there.

Note, a part of this depends on how hard you struck the blade. It is possible to dent the part of the blade that engages with the lock. Possible to dent the lock itself. Possible to damage the pivot bushing. Possible to damage the pivot pin. Also possible to introduce lateral wobble. I've had 3 relatively recent Buck lock backs develop vertical play from hard straight cutting. I suspect they are using softer bushings to give a smoother action, but that's entirely speculation on my part. Buck is investigating and I'm hopeful we'll hear from them soon.

*It was a christmas present! Hmm.. with any luck I will get a replacement without any blatent issues as I hear their custer service is top notch. I just hope that I do get a keep as I love the style, history and feel of the buck110.

I also noticed an increased blade play after cutting up fire wood with it, particularly side play but also vertical and this was a little confusing at the time.

*back to the OP, I think a lock knife is a poor compramise for a fixed blade, it doesn't offer the same security and I'd go as far as to say leads people into a false sense of security and potential harm in certain cases. I'd much rather have a decent slipjoint where I know it's closing/work limits, and use something more substantial for rough work i.e a fixed blade knife.
 
I'm glad you brought this up A.G. ;)
Nature is not on your side. When you tap the back of a lockback gravity overcomes the spring and unlocks the knife. The knife is not failing. The blade tap came into being for testing linerlocks, it is useless for lockbacks.
It's called "Kinetic energy" created by a mass in motion that is suddenly stopped, ie, by said stump. Tapping on the back of the blade will force the lock mechanism to travel the same direction as the blade was traveling before impact.
If any you guys are not familiar familiar with the term, look it up. It might just be an eye opener. The rest of you may just consider this a form of Black Magic. :)
-Bruce
 
I've had some really tough, rock solid folders. All kinds of different locks. I have never had reason to abuse them to the point that they could break on me. They are meant for cutting. I've used my fixed blades for batoning, used firesteels on them and carved sticks etc, but I have never abused them.

That's why I can never wrap my head around Cliff Stamp, Lynn Thompson or Vasilli. Why break a knife just because you can? A knife is not supposed to chop cinderblocks. If you are chopping cinderblocks with a knife, someone that cares about your safety and the safety of others should come over, ask to see the knife, and smack you about the head ala the Gibbs Slap. NO, you can't get it back.

I have started using my "other" folders like my slipjoints. Surprised it took me this long. When that lock or spring fails, do you want YOUR fingers to be in the way?
 
just tested my newish buck 110 to see how strong the lock is by tapping the back of the blade on a old tree stump, and it closed! now the blade has even more play, I'm going to send this piece of junk back. is this normal?
This is almost signature-worthy. ;)
 
One hand opening locking folders are incredibly handy. They are much easier to bring into use than a slipjoint, they are easier to carry than a fixed blade (in public anyway). Well made liner locks are extremely durable and can be used when the situation calls for it, for things a slipjoint just cant do. The very nature of their construction means they can be opened with one hand, either with a thumb or flipping motion. Any problem I have seen with a liner lock, ball lock or slide lock type folder was because it a cheap foreign made junk. Well made liner locks, like Hinderer, or Strider are extremely strong. So to me, locking folder and traditional slipjoints are apples and oranges comparison. I like both. I like traditionals MUCH more but I have a couple dozen very well made locking folders that I carry in conjuntion with my traditionals when I camp or hike etc. I also have a number of fixed blades but they are more difficult to carry, its just a fact.
 
maybe, but the blade has loads of play, out of the box it had enough to make me weary of abusing it.
Then you should have sent it back immediately.
Did you buy it online, or at a brick and mortar store?
-Bruce
 
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