The merits of a Lock-back on a Tactical folder?

[AcridSaint]

Hey Spence - a well known name in the knife world told us at one of our meetings "Tactical is just a nice word to sell 'user' knives". I don't want to get any feathers ruffled, but if you make a hard using knife that can withstand "tactical" applications like... cutting... then I think you're using the right name.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

In regards to SAR knives, if Spencer isn't qualified to say what he considers a tactical folder I dont know anyone who is.... I have many opinions on tactical knives and have learned to keep them to myself for the most part on this or any other forum. Arguing about tactical folders is like arguing about who would win a super hero fight. 100% speculation in most cases. All it seems to do is ruffle feathers.

EDIT to say: On that note a sincere apology to anyone I have offended in any tactical or other charged post topic on this forum. If we all thought the same our knives would be boring.

 

[naccibobacci]

I'm just curious, how exactly are you closing your lockbacks? E.g. for the mini Persian I mentioned earlier:

1) From sabre grip, pull thumb back and move index finger forward to hole (thumb moves around 2")
2) Press lockbar down, start closing blade with index finger
3) Slide thumb onto bolster, move rest of fingers out of the way and push blade the rest of the way in

Note that in step 3 (or pic 5), the knife is held between thumb and index finger, this sounds funny but actually works quite well and is rather secure for a closing operation. In the above pictures, I moved my fingers away much earlier than I usually would, usually the blade makes about a 60 degree angle with the handle before my fingers move.

The closest framelock I had was my XM-18, so I just used that for comparison:
1) Turn handle 180 degrees by (in my case) pushing thumb against spine, move index finger onto spine
2) Move thumb to lock, disengage it and push blade part-way closed
3) Move thumb out of the way and push the blade the rest of the way with index finger

Not sure what hand acrobatics are required for the lockback, especially since the framelock requires rotating the knife's handle. And as I said before, it's quicker to close the lockback. Not by much, but still quicker and easier for me.

A Persian is not representative of a standard Lock-back and clearly not the standard Lock-back on Spencer's design. No points. To close a standard Lock-back with one hand you have to catch it with the back of your pinky or ring finger, not comfortable, or flip the knife and depress with your thumb, increased chance of dropping. As far as your argument that rotating one's Frame-lock 1/4 of a turn to close it constitutes acrobatics, I disagree.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

you seem to be interested in arguing more than getting real knife makers input on a subject. My advice would be to go buy what you want.

"No points." You cannot both moderate and participate in a debate. You are obviously biased towards your own argument. If we do not have trouble closing our lock backs then there is nothing for you to disagree with. The Spyderco Chinook is a very successful lock back that was a good enough seller to have 3 versions to date. Obviously alot of people like them.

 

[naccibobacci]

I thought he was looking for ammo to win an argument with SAR.

I have no beef with Spencer. I respect his work. He asked for opinions on his design and I gave it. I do disagree with calling a knife with a thumb nick and lock-back a Tactical Folder. I also disagree that a thumb nick and Lock-back is the most efficient mechanisms to open and close a knife. So far there is not much support for this position within this thread but I will point to the fact that almost exclusively todays finest tactical knife makers, from Yuna, Burchtree, Strider, Maciej Szczerbiak at Crusader forge and even this years Blade knifemaker of the year, Chris Reeves utilize frame and liner locks. There is not a Lock-back to be found.

 

[naccibobacci]

In regards to SAR knives, if Spencer isn't qualified to say what he considers a tactical folder I dont know anyone who is.... I have many opinions on tactical knives and have learned to keep them to myself for the most part on this or any other forum. Arguing about tactical folders is like arguing about who would win a super hero fight. 100% speculation in most cases. All it seems to do is ruffle feathers.

EDIT to say: On that note a sincere apology to anyone I have offended in any tactical or other charged post topic on this forum. If we all thought the same our knives would be boring.

This forum is designed so that we can offer our opinions. I don't think anyone is arguing. This is a debate. There is nothing wrong with ruffling some feathers. Also did you qualify your statement with; "On that note a sincere apology to anyone I have offended" my wife thought that was especially funny.

 

[thombrogan]

Not to mention life is way to short to get in a hissy fit over something as trivial as this.

It gets more hysterical in any kind of forum. At least we're not discussing politics, religion, or self-defense. :foot:

What have I really learned from all this is to be very carefull how you label a knife design, you have seen the very last time I will use the seemingly volatile word "Tactical"

I do hope you'll reconsider. If you stop using every word that sets off an internet panic, you'll end up a mute in no time. And then the mutes will get upset.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

I don't think anyone will deny that frame locks are the most common lock type on tactical knives. However the Chinook that I mentioned has outsold every maker you mention, even though I don't normally compare production to custom, the numbers do speak to people view of the lock type.

Second there are thousands of people who don't think anything with a liner lock should be called a tactical either. So now we are left with only one lock option for tactical folders? Tactical knives are 99% of the time never used for tactical purposes and even if they are the comfort and speed with witch the owner can deploy the knife is all that matters as it will be there life on the line. I would bet I can open my old case carbon bladed slipjoint faster than a lot of people can open there thumb studded tactical knives becuase I am intimately familiar with it. Life is about choices and I think that having lockbacks in the tactical realm is a good option for people who like the lock style.

As for thumb nicks your original post said nothing about them. If you don't like SAR's folder dont buy one. If you are angry he called it a tactical knife then get over yourself. There is no laws or rules about what we call our knives. If you are implying that he is doing people a disservice to people who need a tactical knife then you should fault them for not knowing what features they want in there tactical knife instead of just buying one and assuming the lock/opening type will work for them. I'm out of this discussion, I for one would love one of Spencers folders. If this whole post is about how you do not think these things are acceptable then maybe you should just say so and if you want people to believe you know your stuff maybe you should qualify what experience you have in knife fighting. If it's just a matter of you trying to "prove" it's "untactical" and you get to decide the merit of knife makers opinions I have no interest. I don't mean to sound jaded but your replies to peoples opinions just seem standoffish.

 

[naccibobacci]

Hey Spence - a well known name in the knife world told us at one of our meetings "Tactical is just a nice word to sell 'user' knives". I don't want to get any feathers ruffled, but if you make a hard using knife that can withstand "tactical" applications like... cutting... then I think you're using the right name.

I categorically disagree with this statement. Tactical knives are designed and intended for tough close quarters fighting as well as other hard use tasks. Weather or not anyone uses them for this purpose is another matter.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

This forum is designed so that we can offer our opinions. I don't think anyone is arguing. This is a debate. There is nothing wrong with ruffling some feathers. Also did you qualify your statement with; "On that note a sincere apology to anyone I have offended" my wife thought that was especially funny.

No, I added the last statement as a sincere apology since I know in previous discussions on tactical knives I have "ruffled peoples feathers". Since first starting to visit this site I have come to see it as a place where people with the highest level of skill and artistry share openly with us newer makers what may have taken them years to learn. When I come here now I go out of my way not to offend anyone as I value this forum and the people on it. If you wish to "ruffle feathers" and debate then that's fine for you. I still feel that your "no points", you answer didn't appease me attitude uncalled for. If this is a debate as stated then your title should have said please debate, not asking for opinions. Also as I stated it is silly to think you can champion a debate topic and moderate the same debate. Im out of this thread.

 

[naccibobacci]

I don't think anyone will deny that frame locks are the most common lock type on tactical knives. However the Chinook that I mentioned has outsold every maker you mention, even though I don't normally compare production to custom, the numbers do speak to people view of the lock type.

Second there are thousands of people who don't think anything with a liner lock should be called a tactical either. So now we are left with only one lock option for tactical folders? Tactical knives are 99% of the time never used for tactical purposes and even if they are the comfort and speed with witch the owner can deploy the knife is all that matters as it will be there life on the line. I would bet I can open my old case carbon bladed slipjoint faster than a lot of people can open there thumb studded tactical knives becuase I am intimately familiar with it. Life is about choices and I think that having lockbacks in the tactical realm is a good option for people who like the lock style.

As for thumb nicks your original post said nothing about them. If you don't like SAR's folder dont buy one. If you are angry he called it a tactical knife then get over yourself. There is no laws or rules about what we call our knives. If you are implying that he is doing people a disservice to people who need a tactical knife then you should fault them for not knowing what features they want in there tactical knife instead of just buying one and assuming the lock/opening type will work for them. I'm out of this discussion, I for one would love one of Spencers folders. If this whole post is about how you do not think these things are acceptable then maybe you should just say so and if you want people to believe you know your stuff maybe you should qualify what experience you have in knife fighting. If it's just a matter of you trying to "prove" it's "untactical" and you get to decide the merit of knife makers opinions I have no interest. I don't mean to sound jaded but your replies to peoples opinions just seem standoffish.

Now Mr. Golat I am offended. There are a "Thousand people" who believe that anything with a Liner-lock should not be considered a tactical knife? That I did not know. Speak up. Show your faces.

 

[thombrogan]

The knife cuts and won't bend in a breeze and the lock doesn't fold and fail at the slightest provocation: it's a tactical folder. The pocket clip (drilled for lefties, too, I see....) makes it more accessible. The craftsmanship, the blade and lockbar steel, the titanium scales, and the carbon-fiber pocketclip make it high end. If some other maker; or several other makers ("argumentum ad populi" is a goofy argument); make their high-end tactical folders differently, this is still a high-end tactical folder. It is what is and doesn't rely on being one of many to be what it is.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

All you have to do is search for threads concerning the safety and strength of liner locks with the word tactical and you will find hundreds of such posts. I do not agree with there opinion just as I do not agree with yours about lock backs. You will find me in many of these posts saying that a well designed and made liner lock is plenty strong and secure enough for a SD knife. The point is a lot of people have opinions on "tactical" knives but we all know what opinions are like.

 

[AcridSaint]

Ok, firstly, I agree that you cannot both moderate and participate in your "debate", thus you cannot award points.

Secondly, I wholeheartedly believe that the popularity of the liner/framlock has nothing to do with it's mechanical superiority and everything to do with trend. They gained a lot of momentum with buyers when they were new and and gained popularity with makers because they are fairly simple to make. Linerlocks are convenient and are rarely plagued with the "heavy" lock problems of many low-grade lockbacks. They also seem to be faster to mass assemble and have a "modern" look. Agree or disagree - I know many makers who can completely build a liner lock in a matter of hours.

Third - the statement was not mine, it was said to me by a writer for Tactical Knives Magazine. I don't know if a person who writes about tactical knives for a living has any more perspective than an authority on BF.

There are a few things that make up a tactical knife and I wouldn't say "easy to close" is high on the list. If you want a "true" tactical you use a fixed blade knife. If you want a "tactical folder" you use what you're comfortable with that works within your "tactical" profile. These are heavy use knives, nothing more, if you don't believe a lockback can handle that use then fine, most people will disagree with you.

James Keating happens to be one of the modern "authorities" on knife combat and (as far as I know) the only video he has on "tactical" folders is for the lockback Spyderco Civilian. He's also the guy that designed the chinook.

You have your opinion, but it seems a lot of people don't agree with it.

 

[SAR]

I have no beef with Spencer. I respect his work. He asked for opinions on his design and I gave it. I do disagree with calling a knife with a thumb nick and lock-back a Tactical Folder. I also disagree that a thumb nick and Lock-back is the most efficient mechanisms to open and close a knife. So far there is not much support for this position within this thread but I will point to the fact that almost exclusively todays finest tactical knife makers, from Yuna, Burchtree, Strider, Maciej Szczerbiak at Crusader forge and even this years Blade knifemaker of the year, Chris Reeves utilize frame and liner locks. There is not a Lock-back to be found.

B I N G O.....

Spencer

 

[naccibobacci]

No, I added the last statement as a sincere apology since I know in previous discussions on tactical knives I have "ruffled peoples feathers". Since first starting to visit this site I have come to see it as a place where people with the highest level of skill and artistry share openly with us newer makers what may have taken them years to learn. When I come here now I go out of my way not to offend anyone as I value this forum and the people on it. If you wish to "ruffle feathers" and debate then that's fine for you. I still feel that your "no points", you answer didn't appease me attitude uncalled for. If this is a debate as stated then your title should have said please debate, not asking for opinions. Also as I stated it is silly to think you can champion a debate topic and moderate the same debate. Im out of this thread.

No Mr. Golat please don't go I still need to know what exactly this means "I still feel that your "no points", you answer didn't appease me attitude uncalled for". Anyways. So most of the seven people who posted don't agree with me. I'm good with that. I do know that 99% of the tactical folder market does. Spencer you took offense to my position. That surprises me. The smiley faces in your thread didn't hide that. Cool knife and I agree with your decision to not call it a Tactical Folder. Well you Fellas' just take offense to quick for my blood. Later.

 

[Destraal]

It's a personal preference thing, there is no right answer, why are you looking for one?

 

[naccibobacci]

Ok, firstly, I agree that you cannot both moderate and participate in your "debate", thus you cannot award points.

Secondly, I wholeheartedly believe that the popularity of the liner/framlock has nothing to do with it's mechanical superiority and everything to do with trend. They gained a lot of momentum with buyers when they were new and and gained popularity with makers because they are fairly simple to make. Linerlocks are convenient and are rarely plagued with the "heavy" lock problems of many low-grade lockbacks. They also seem to be faster to mass assemble and have a "modern" look. Agree or disagree - I know many makers who can completely build a liner lock in a matter of hours.

Third - the statement was not mine, it was said to me by a writer for Tactical Knives Magazine. I don't know if a person who writes about tactical knives for a living has any more perspective than an authority on BF.

There are a few things that make up a tactical knife and I wouldn't say "easy to close" is high on the list. If you want a "true" tactical you use a fixed blade knife. If you want a "tactical folder" you use what you're comfortable with that works within your "tactical" profile. These are heavy use knives, nothing more, if you don't believe a lockback can handle that use then fine, most people will disagree with you.

James Keating happens to be one of the modern "authorities" on knife combat and (as far as I know) the only video he has on "tactical" folders is for the lockback Spyderco Citizen. He's also the guy that designed the chinook.

You have your opinion, but it seems a lot of people don't agree with it.

Whoa, I almost missed this one. Acridsaint do I have you straight, That the great tactical folder makers of today are utilizing the Liner/Framelock because it is a trend? That the Blade knife maker of the year Chris Reeves or Maciej Szczerbiak who I consider the maker of the best tactical folders out today utilize Frame-locks not for there mechanical superiority but because it is trendy. Thats heavy man. Anybody else agree with that? No I don't think anybody does. These Master knife makers and many more utilize the Frame-lock because of its mechanical superiority and efficiency. Spencer himself said that he utilized the Lock-back on this knife out of "Nostalgia" That's cool, but nostalgia is looking to the past which is the same as not looking to the future.

 

[naccibobacci]

It's a personal preference thing, there is no right answer, why are you looking for one?

Just curious what you Men thought.

 

[AcridSaint]

You can only make a framelock so strong, if the frame is too thick then it's unusable. In my opinion, a linerlock can be just as sturdy as a framelock.

I do honestly believe that trend and convenience has much to do with the making of liner lock knives. Does that mean that every one is made for this reason? No. Does it mean that trend and convenience made them popular? Absolutely. Trend is what sells things. If you don't believe that trends drive the custom and high-end production knife market you are sadly mistaken.