The merits of a Lock-back on a Tactical folder?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Look at Extrema Ratio's folder line-up. The MPC, Fulcrum, and Nemesis models are all lockbacks.

Maciej Szczerbiak who I consider the maker of the best tactical folders out today utilize Frame-locks not for there mechanical superiority but because it is trendy.
Click to expand...

I owned a Trident/Crusader VIS-01T and while it's a solid knife when open and locked, getting it there is an exercise in patience. I would not want to bet my life on a knife that takes so much effort to open--which is one of the reasons I sold it. Another is that it is horribly uncomfortable to grip sans gloves. The strength of that knife is not through any particular design innovation. It is simply a sandwich of the biggest, thickest pieces of titanium and S30V one can procure without custom ordering anything.
 
OK, I will answer I am out. What I mean is that your statement "No Points" makes it sound as if you don't consider his point of view valid. It is ok to say that his argument doesn't sway you into changing your opinion, but to say "No points" implies that there is a contest and that he is losing to you. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean to be dismissive of people but when you respond in such a way it certainly seems that way. If you ask for people for there opinions its usually best not to immediately dismiss there input.

I suspect that like myself you enjoy playing the devils advocate. Debate online is fun but I have learned that I must be careful online to make my intention and attitude understandable since we are dealing only with written word and peoples intention and demeanor can only be guessed at when reading there posts. I'm 100% behind you not liking lock backs or thumb nicks on a SD knife but do think it is more personal choice and comfort level than a fact of knife making or what constitutes a tactical knife.
 
Last edited:
It's pretty clear you weren't looking for what anybody thought, unless it was to agree with you.

This would seem to boil down to an argument of semantics, but your multiple posts about Spencer lacking any forward thinking seem like a slap to me.




Spence, maybe you should avoid marketing your lock-back to the armchair/keyboard knife ninja fighters association of the internet....and just sell them as hard use utility knives :)
 
Tactical: for use in tactical/combat zone operations.
Utility: for use in a variety of hard-use cutting situations.
Self-defense: for use against up-close life-threatening attackers.

"Tactical" has come to cover all of these. There is no dictionary definition that addresses our requirements because we constantly change and upgrade what we mean and how we go about it.

Slipjoints worked well for all these applications for many years. I have a Toothpick with a 4" blade that would do a great job on all 3 categories: tactical, utility, and self-defense. Would it look good on a movie set? Probably not. I tend to keep it down where people get to see what's been cut, not how I cut it.

When it comes to the do-it-all knife I regularly carry, it's a rotation: Sebenza framelock, Boker M-Type framelock, Spydie Military linerlock, and Spydie Chinook III lockback. Two of them tip-up and two tip-down. I know them all and don't hesitate when I open them.

Tactical has nothing to do with the knife and everything to do with the user: his needs and his abilities. The knife is the tool: well-made and comfortable in his hand, it's a winner.
 
naccibobacci said:
A Persian is not representative of a standard Lock-back and clearly not the standard Lock-back on Spencer's design. No points. To close a standard Lock-back with one hand you have to catch it with the back of your pinky or ring finger, not comfortable, or flip the knife and depress with your thumb, increased chance of dropping. As far as your argument that rotating one's Frame-lock 1/4 of a turn to close it constitutes acrobatics, I disagree.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I thought we were using the common definitions in this forum. At the moment, it is representative of a standard lockback among quite a few production companies. That said, if that's your definition of a lockback, then I agree on that.

naccibobacci said:
Whoa, I almost missed this one. Acridsaint do I have you straight, That the great tactical folder makers of today are utilizing the Liner/Framelock because it is a trend? That the Blade knife maker of the year Chris Reeves or Maciej Szczerbiak who I consider the maker of the best tactical folders out today utilize Frame-locks not for there mechanical superiority but because it is trendy. Thats heavy man. Anybody else agree with that? No I don't think anybody does. These Master knife makers and many more utilize the Frame-lock because of its mechanical superiority and efficiency. Spencer himself said that he utilized the Lock-back on this knife out of "Nostalgia" That's cool, but nostalgia is looking to the past which is the same as not looking to the future.
Click to expand...

I shall restate from Sal Glesser on the Spyderco forum:

Hi Poodle,

We've gotten to the point where we can make most locks as strong as we plan for. The Lockback as seen on the Chinook (Manix & 83mm), the ball bearing, Compression and the new Stop-lock can be built into the Very Heavy Duty (MBC - 200 inch/lbs per inch of blade length) range. We select materials and dimentions to meet the requirement we sedt for the model.

We've not been able to get Walker linerlocks or "framelocks" into that range due to the long spring.......yet. But we're still developing.

I think most locks can be made to be strong and reliable if the manufacturer extends the effort.

sal
Click to expand...
http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24676
 
AcridSaint said:
You can only make a framelock so strong, if the frame is too thick then it's unusable. In my opinion, a linerlock can be just as sturdy as a framelock.

I do honestly believe that trend and convenience has much to do with the making of liner lock knives. Does that mean that every one is made for this reason? No. Does it mean that trend and convenience made them popular? Absolutely. Trend is what sells things. If you don't believe that trends drive the custom and high-end production knife market you are sadly mistaken.
Click to expand...
Said the spider to the fly. No I don't believe that these Makers are utilizing Frame-locks on there Tactical Folders because they think it is trendy. I believe that they utilize the Frame-lock because they believe it to be the strongest most efficient and easy to close lock for Tactical folders. The trend of Frame-locks on tactical Folders developed because so many makers and buyers found this to be true. The Numbers of Frame-locked tactical folders compared to Lock-backs speak for themselves. But enough of this, we have the Man right here to shed some light on this issue, Spencer himself. Spencer developed a very successful tactical folder with a colt break-down tool. He like the vast majority of tactical folder makers utilized a Frame-lock for this knife. Spencer what was your reason for this? Did you consider the Frame-lock trendy or mechanically superior for use in tactical folders. When you switched to a lock-back for this knife was it do to a revelation in the lock-backs superiority or to throw a nostalgic twist. What types of locks will your tactical folders of the future carry?
 
Dustin Golat said:
OK, I will answer I am out. What I mean is that your statement "No Points" makes it sound as if you don't consider his point of view valid. It is ok to say that his argument doesn't sway you into changing your opinion, but to say "No points" implies that there is a contest and that he is losing to you. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean to be dismissive of people but when you respond in such a way it certainly seems that way. If you ask for people for there opinions its usually best not to immediately dismiss there input.

I suspect that like myself you enjoy playing the devils advocate. Debate online is fun but I have learned that I must be careful online to make my intention and attitude understandable since we are dealing only with written word and peoples intention and demeanor can only be guessed at when reading there posts. I'm 100% behind you not liking lock backs or thumb nicks on a SD knife but do think it is more personal choice and comfort level than a fact of knife making or what constitutes a tactical knife.
Click to expand...
Mr, Golat welcome back. It wasn't the same without you. I do consider debate a contest and I still give no points to TH232 for referencing a Persian with a lock-back half way up its spine. It is my position that the use of a Lock-back with a thumb nick cripples a tactical folder and the fact the the vast majority of tactical folder makers, Spencer himself included, utilize Liner/framelocks on their tactical folders speaks to this position.
 
Ok, we need to get some things clear here - I don't favor one or the other. I am a fan of both frame/liner lock knives and lockbacks.

I am in quite close contact with several makers with "names" in the tactical folder world. I've not heard one of them say "I only make frame/liner locks because they are superior to lockbacks". One of these people is good friends with Spencer and my teacher is the same guy who taught him how to do linerlocks. I know why my teacher makes them and he doesn't need any propaganda to sell them.

I want to ask some direct questions, since you seem to be picking and choosing:

1. What do you say to Keating designing both lockback and liner lock knives and having his only folding knife training video designed around a lockback? Do you not respect him as an authority on the subject of knife combat or is it just that we're not talking about knife combat?

2. Why does a tactical knife need this "easy to close" feature you keep on about? What part of the "tactics" require this?

We have already established that easy to open can be had in a lockback. I'll go on to say that even a lockback with a nail nick can be easy to open, if it's designed well and you know your knife.

What are you doing with your tactical that a lockback will fail on? Hammering with the spine of the blade? Perhaps you're expecting to do a whole bunch of knife blocking with it?

I'll make two not-so-wild speculations here:
1. You're not here to get opinions, just here to confirm your own (sorry, I know it's not an original idea in this thread)
2. You only make frame/linerlock folders and thus you have a vested interest in their continued popularity/esteem.
 
naccibobacci said:
I do consider debate a contest and I still give no points to TH232 for referencing a Persian with a lock-back half way up its spine.
Click to expand...

And the rest of my post, directed at you stating that a framelock is mechanically superior, and I quote a man who's been in the knife industry for over 25 years, has developed several new locks?

Edit: Just to add, I'm a second year mechanical engineering student, and in my latest mechanics course got a distinction (around 10% of students get a distinction or above). If you wish I can go into a qualitative analysis of why a lockback will be mechanically superior to a framelock based on the modes of destruction that are most likely to occur.
 
Last edited:
Tactical knives are 99% of the time never used for tactical purposes and even if they are the comfort and speed with witch the owner can deploy the knife is all that matters as it will be there life on the line.
Click to expand...

Well said. So many worry about if the knife is tactical or not. What are people doing who are so worried about using it as a tactical knife , what are their tactics anyways ? :)

It is my position that the use of a Lock-back with a thumb nick cripples a tactical folder
Click to expand...
naccibobacci , perhaps you can tell us what experience/credibility you have that would
persuade us to further examine your views ?

Ever go looking at a single makers work , and think , dam I like their knives but wish they offered a model in a ( insert linerlock , framelock , lockback or slipjoint ) ?
I dont think Spencer was saying the he felt the lockback was the be all , end all.
It is yet another design/pattern/style he can offer to his customers. Some makers find their style/model that sells and are happy with that ( nothing wrong with that ) , others keep adding to their lineup until they have something that may appeal to all markets.

Which is what Spencer did. And I applaud him for it , and I am dam glad he made this one. It is just what I was looking for. So he used the word " tactical " with it , big flipping deal , get over it.

No object is tactical , not until picked up and put to tactical use by an individual. Granted someone in the MIL or LEO may have the need to use a knife in a tactical manner , but the average Joe , sorry I don't see it.

I see them as knives , I don't consider them tactical at all. If I have to call anything tactical , it will be my 1911. ;)
 
I can get my friction folder swiftly open and closed with one hand (it's not so loose it comes open or closed against my will though)... my fingers all gripping the knife lightly, my thumb swings the blade out and pivots the knife into a gripping position. ...and unless I wanted to beat someone over the head with the spine, it wouldn't close.

There's some more maker's input for you, I have no hard-set feelings one way or another enough to argue about such things. I always take new information as a chance to correct my misconceptions, not as an attack on what I know. :D I just wanted to throw in a point for old technology. :thumbup:
 
bluejaunte said:
Look at Extrema Ratio's folder line-up. The MPC, Fulcrum, and Nemesis models are all lockbacks.



I owned a Trident/Crusader VIS-01T and while it's a solid knife when open and locked, getting it there is an exercise in patience. I would not want to bet my life on a knife that takes so much effort to open--which is one of the reasons I sold it. Another is that it is horribly uncomfortable to grip sans gloves. The strength of that knife is not through any particular design innovation. It is simply a sandwich of the biggest, thickest pieces of titanium and S30V one can procure without custom ordering anything.
Click to expand...
Aaron, I looked at Extrema Ratios line. Interesting line of knives and interesting point. They are in the minority of tactical knife makers to utilize the Lock-back. They also position there Lock-backs in mid-spine not at the but of the knife like SAR. Crusader Forge not your knife? A better example of my point would be Terzuola. Everybody respects Bob Terzuola. His book "The Tactical Folding Knife" is often endorsed in this forum. I am using it to learn how to build a Tactical Folders as did most new and experienced Tactical folder makers. Chapter 1, What is a tactical folder? states that though most locking mechanisms work pretty well my personal preference for a folding knife is the liner-lock. It is simple, reliable,and exceedingly strong. He goes on to state that a tactical folder must have a provision for rapid deployment such as a hole, stud or disc. At no point does he mention a thumb nick which requires two hands to open. Terzuola like most Tactical folder makers also does not make Lock-backs, only Liner/Frame-locks and he has been making them longer than any Tactical folder maker that I am aware of. Acridsaint maybe Bob started this trend you keep talking about.
 
Is your problem with me calling my knife a "Utility/Tactical"


Please its just a straight forward question

Spencer
 
AcridSaint said:
Ok, we need to get some things clear here - I don't favor one or the other. I am a fan of both frame/liner lock knives and lockbacks.

I am in quite close contact with several makers with "names" in the tactical folder world. I've not heard one of them say "I only make frame/liner locks because they are superior to lockbacks". One of these people is good friends with Spencer and my teacher is the same guy who taught him how to do linerlocks. I know why my teacher makes them and he doesn't need any propaganda to sell them.

I want to ask some direct questions, since you seem to be picking and choosing:

1. What do you say to Keating designing both lockback and liner lock knives and having his only folding knife training video designed around a lockback? Do you not respect him as an authority on the subject of knife combat or is it just that we're not talking about knife combat?

2. Why does a tactical knife need this "easy to close" feature you keep on about? What part of the "tactics" require this?

We have already established that easy to open can be had in a lockback. I'll go on to say that even a lockback with a nail nick can be easy to open, if it's designed well and you know your knife.

What are you doing with your tactical that a lockback will fail on? Hammering with the spine of the blade? Perhaps you're expecting to do a whole bunch of knife blocking with it?

I'll make two not-so-wild speculations here:
1. You're not here to get opinions, just here to confirm your own (sorry, I know it's not an original idea in this thread)
2. You only make frame/linerlock folders and thus you have a vested interest in their continued popularity/esteem.
Click to expand...
Acridsaint, I come from a hard days work, my family begging for my attention and you send me homework? Well, O.K.. I am very impressed that you are in contact with several "Makers with names". You should have told me this earlier and I would have attempted to not ruffle your feather. I like direct questions so I would be happy to play along.#1. I don't know who Keating is. #2. A tactical folder should be able to be opened and closed with one hand because there are several times in life, some that could be critical, where one hand is all that is available. Your point that a lock-back with a nail nick can easily opened with one hand may be true but it is not the most efficient method. far from it. #3. I don't have and have not stated any doubts of the ability of lockbacks to withstand the pressures of even extreme knife usage. My issue with them was they are awkward to close with one hand without flipping and possibly dropping them and that Frame-locks were a better option. As far as your "not so wild speculations", They bore me.
 
Ok, so you don't know who Keating is, that's fair. Especially for someone who appears to be speaking with authority on tactical knives. Earlier in this thread you said:

"Tactical knives are designed and intended for tough close quarters fighting as well as other hard use tasks."

Yet you have no knowledge of one of the foremost teachers of close quarters knife fighting. Ok, and our bone to pick with lockbacks is that they aren't easy to close? Really? That's it... hmm, wonder what CQB and hard use is going to require effortless closing of the knife.

You claim to have some knowledge that tactical knife makers are only using the framelock/linerlock design because it is superior to the lockback yet if I tell you I know several "named" makers and I would disagree I'm just showing off... I'll ask the Jones brothers this weekend if that's the only reason they do liner locks. Maybe Gerry will be out at the meeting (though I doubt it), if he is I'll ask him as well. Spencer and Gerry talk more than I do, so maybe he can convince him to come by and support your opinion.

You cannot address my question of why it is important to get the knife closed, nor can you make a coherent reply as to how "easy" on a lockback is "less easy" than a framelock. If I can deploy in the same amount of time, with the same "effort" then how is it less "efficient"?

My speculation may bore you, but your lack of defense only gives it merit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top