The merits of a Lock-back on a Tactical folder?

[AcridSaint]

Maybe my real point got lost in the sea of words above:

What tactical situations require ease of one handed closing?

Please provide the details, not some "there are many situations in life" round about answer.

 

[stabman]

There is not a Lock-back to be found.

Except for the Chinook 3, Manix, Mini Manix, Endura, Voyager, Espada, Native, Vaquero, Rajah...
Yeah, not a lock-back to be found.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

I am using it to learn how to build a Tactical Folders as did most new and experienced Tactical folder makers. Chapter 1, What is a tactical folder? states that though most locking mechanisms work pretty well my personal preference for a folding knife is the liner-lock. It is simple, reliable,and exceedingly strong. He goes on to state that a tactical folder must have a provision for rapid deployment such as a hole, stud or disc. At no point does he mention a thumb nick which requires two hands to open. Terzuola like most Tactical folder makers also does not make Lock-backs, only Liner/Frame-locks and he has been making them longer than any Tactical folder maker that I am aware of.

So are the things you are saying , are they your opinion or are you basing your opinion off of Bob's book , which is his take on what a Tactical Folder is ?

I have read the Terzoula book , great book for framelock folders , but that is what he makes and sells , so the book is geared towards framelock folders.

Does it say in there anywhere that lockbacks are inferior ? If so , please give me the page number.

I highly doubt you are going to change anyone's mind , though it would be nice if you answered Spencer's straight forward question.

For me , I don't think that just because something is an old design , that newer designs HAVE to supercede it performance wise. ( Can't change my mind on Colt 1911's either , diehard slabside user here )

Think of it this way , someone hands you a cup of coffee and you taste it and say " that's too hot " , while someone else (me) will drink it piping hot and not even notice it. Everyone has an idea , or vision of what something should be , in this thread it is a tactical folder.

Benchmade sells a Tactical Pen , just WTF makes it tactical ? Tactical is nothing more than an over hyped marketing term. The real tactical is located in the same place that the safety on a firearm is located...between ones ears.

I could have the Uber Duber Tactical Supreme XL Tactical one handed wonder folder in my hand , and it will be no more tactical than my Queen Mtn Man folder , why ? Cause I ain't a tactician with a knife.
I am fairly confident in my skills with both a handgun and a long gun ( as well as a subgun ) but I don't consider myself "tactical" with them in any sense.

Tactical = marketing hype buzz word.

Spencer...

maybe just call it " lokbactical " , though it don't matter what you call it , just let me know when mine is available. I have utmost confidence that it will not fail me.

 

[stabman]

The real tactical is located in the same place that the safety on a firearm is located...between ones ears.

THAT is the truth on this matter.:thumbup:

 

[naccibobacci]

Is your problem with me calling my knife a "Utility/Tactical"

Please its just a straight forward question.
No problem Here spencer only an opinion that you yourself solicited then took offense to. What good would this forum be if everyone just patted each other on the back all the time. A lock-back that can not be closed with one hand and a thumb nick that can not be deployed with one hand cripples a tactical folder. But, if I were you I would not give a damn what I thought and would make my knife how I saw fit.

 

[naccibobacci]

I reject the position that "tactical" is "an over hyped marketing term" or that a butter knife in the hands of the right man is a tactical knife. Like the whole development of tactical folders is some organized trick to sell expensive knives to wannabees and all you fellas in the know are sitting back snikering. Like many things that evolve knives have specialized. The branch of tactical folders have evolved to provide a knife designed for fighting. I believe the majority of us who are drawn to and carry them utilize them mostly for mundane, day to day cutting tasks but also feel that if hell were to break loose on the spot we also have them for fighting. Probably not pretty fighting or skilled fighting but fighting no less. That is what so many of the best tactical folder makers today keep in mind when designing and building there folders. How many of us own guns? How many of us have shot someone? Does that make you a wannabe or lessen the intended design and use of that weapon?

 

[naccibobacci]

Except for the Chinook 3, Manix, Mini Manix, Endura, Voyager, Espada, Native, Vaquero, Rajah...
Yeah, not a lock-back to be found.

It is my position that Spydercos are designed and marketed as utilities. Utilities.

 

[AcridSaint]

The Chinook was designed by that guy you don't know for that purpose you keep talking about. I guess it is a utility of sorts. The civilian was also designed for that sort of "utility".

Let's look at some of the Spyderco "utility" ad copy:

In the 1990s Spyderco was approached by a specialized branch of U.S. law enforcement about making a knife for their undercover agents. These plain-clothes LEOs found themselves in situations where they often could not carry a firearm but carrying a knife was not a problem. Most had no formal training in self-defense tactics or MBC but as a last resort could use a blade to protect or extricate themselves from a life-threatening situation. This was how the Civilian model came to be.

People keep bringing up specific knives that are tactical and lockback and you try so hard to dismiss them.

Glad to see you still can't answer my question about why you need to close a knife so abruptly. If this were a true tactical need then we wouldn't see so many fixed blade knives going into real tactical situations now would we? I don't think there are a whole lot of "operators" who spend hours daily sheathing their knives with speed, stealth and (most important) "efficiency". Maybe I'm mistaken and you can point some out to me.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

I reject the position that "tactical" is "an over hyped marketing term"

Feel free to reject it , it was just an opinion I shared.

I bet you would be surprised to find out how many agree that " tactical " is a hyped marketing buzz word vs those that feel naming something tactical actually means anything.

Again tactical is a how you use something , I fail to see how an object by itself can be tactical.

 

[bob7]

naccibobacci,
You're just trolling at this point. Please go back to your Short Bus Forum.

AcridSaint,
I had the need to close a spyderco endura quickly. I had just jumped out of a C130 aircraft, my chute had deployed, and I was trying to lower my rucksack and rifle on my lowering line. The shoestring tie down to lower the lowering line wouldn't budge so I pulled out the endura, cut the string, put the knife away, lowered the equipment, and then hit the ground using a F-ed up parachute landing fall.

bob7

 

[naccibobacci]

Ok, so you don't know who Keating is, that's fair. Especially for someone who appears to be speaking with authority on tactical knives. Earlier in this thread you said:

"Tactical knives are designed and intended for tough close quarters fighting as well as other hard use tasks."

Yet you have no knowledge of one of the foremost teachers of close quarters knife fighting. Ok, and our bone to pick with lockbacks is that they aren't easy to close? Really? That's it... hmm, wonder what CQB and hard use is going to require effortless closing of the knife.

You claim to have some knowledge that tactical knife makers are only using the framelock/linerlock design because it is superior to the lockback yet if I tell you I know several "named" makers and I would disagree I'm just showing off... I'll ask the Jones brothers this weekend if that's the only reason they do liner locks. Maybe Gerry will be out at the meeting (though I doubt it), if he is I'll ask him as well. Spencer and Gerry talk more than I do, so maybe he can convince him to come by and support your opinion.

You cannot address my question of why it is important to get the knife closed, nor can you make a coherent reply as to how "easy" on a lockback is "less easy" than a framelock. If I can deploy in the same amount of time, with the same "effort" then how is it less "efficient"?

My speculation may bore you, but your lack of defense only gives it merit.

Acridsaint your a real gem. You think you smell blood but it is really your own. It is easier to deploy a frame-lock than a lock-back. In the deploying of a frame-lock there is not the resistance just before engaging the blade to the fully open position that exist from overcoming the lock-back spring. This lock-back spring resistance needs to be overcome where the frame-lock actually provides momentum to the opening blade. This makes the frame-lock more efficient. as to specific circumstances where you would be required in a tactical situation to close your knife one handed? I can't think of a specific scenario and that's to bad for me 'cause I would really have liked to have jammed one down your throat. I do know that as a Carpenter and Mason I use my folder many times a day flipping it open and closed with one hand while holding something with the other. It can not be denied that A knife that can be closed with one hand is more efficient than one that requires two. To me this efficiency belongs in the camp of tactical folders. I'll give you a tie one this one because I know you like my point system. Good night all.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

It is easier to deploy a frame-lock than a lock-back.

that is your opinion , it is not a fact. It's all a matter of opinion.

Which is easier to shoot , a Glock , S&W 686 or a Colt Combat Commander ?
You can only answer that question for yourself , you can not answer it for anyone else.

 

[AcridSaint]

I'm sure you'd love to jam it down my throat :jerkit:

Everyone on this thread has told you that they can open their knives just as easily as the next person. You don't like the tension of the lock now? This is the gripe about lockback tacticals? I guess you haven't handled too many tactical liner/frame lock knives if you think they are all easy to open. Same goes for lockbacks if you think they are all under so much tension that you'd notice the difference. If saving 1K calorie of energy is the extra efficiency you need then even tactical carpentry may be too much effort for you.

Hey Bob7 - thanks for giving an example. I know there are some situations where one would like to be able to quickly close his/her knife, even tactical situations, but based on your one experience would you say that this need trumps lock strength, comfort, or any other factor? Also, did you happen to decide against ever carrying a lockback again because it was so inefficient when you closed it? I think I know the answers, just trying to spell it out for our troll.

Oh, and just because I don't like this guy I've emphasized some of the utility words Spyderco likes to use:

It is my position that Spydercos are designed and marketed as utilities. Utilities.

Barongs (sometimes referred to as Barungs) are short, wide leaf-shaped blades indigenous to the Moro Filipino people. Thick, curving belly angles downward, aligning the cutting edge with the wrist. Pronounced spine-cusp and choil indent give great control over the wide and stable blade for controlling vegetation and personal safety.

James A. Keating is a Master-At-Arms and acclaimed knife designer. He joined forces with Spyderco several years ago to develop a knife called the Chinook. The original design has since been refined, tweaked and upgraded several times and has a new name, the James Keating Chinook 3.

Like the original, the Chinook 3 is an ace in the field or as a martial arts knife where hard-use is a certainty. Lock strength requirements are higher for an outdoor or martial arts folder so the Chinook 3’s back-lock is one of the strongest found on any Spyderco folder.

In the Philippine Visayan dialect, the literal translation of the word Pikal means to rip. In the U.S. the term Pikal remains relatively new but a company called Shivworks is making headway in its introduction to the American market. Its English definition is twofold: It is a rising martial arts genre and the name of a Spyderco knife designed to accompany this art form. As a self-defense platform, Pikal is carried out holding a knife in reverse grip with the sharpened edge facing inward toward the user. Pikal’s objective is not flowing drills with your opponent but rapidly and effectively striking and surprising.

Fred Perrin is a Parisian custom knifemaker, a former French Army Commando and a world ranked martial artist. His Street Beat fixed-blade knife reflects all three influences. Handle and blade are roughly equal weight.

 

[AcridSaint]

It can not be denied that A knife that can be closed with one hand is more efficient than one that requires two.

Doesn't seem like anyone is arguing for closing with two hands:

often you can close a lockback one handed with your index finger. Once you have cut what was needed to be cut, you can take your time closing it with two hands.

I can close a lock back more easily with one hand than I can a liner lock. I do need the side of my thigh though.

Any Spyderco lock back i have i can open and close one handed

Well, I carried a knife for a long time before I ever knew what a liner lock was, I don't think time or two hands was ever a problem for me.

As Steven has said, depending on how it's designed, a lockback can be closed with one hand quite easily. It all depends on where the cutout is.

Not sure what hand acrobatics are required for the lockback, especially since the framelock requires rotating the knife's handle. And as I said before, it's quicker to close the lockback. Not by much, but still quicker and easier for me.

 

[Th232]

This lock-back spring resistance needs to be overcome where the frame-lock actually provides momentum to the opening blade.

What the deuce? How does a framelock provide momentum to the opening blade? If anything, the locking bar on a framelock is pushing to the side, and not aiding in pushing the blade open. A lack of resistance does not mean that it's providing momentum.

 

[SteelSlaver]

Having stayed away from this thread and having just read the whole thing I will make my judgments and award points. I am a make who has used knives all my life I am a 57 year old ex-Marine. I have opened them closed many and even used one to actually save my life. (lockback)

Naccibobacci, you are a close minded person who does not want an opinion other than your own. You also probably have zero real experience with tactical situations. Closing the knife is a very small concern, opening yes and thats mostly knowing your equipment. 0 points

If speed of opening and ease of closing is the main consideration liner and frame locks are not tactical because a button lock auto will beat either all too hell one handed. A balisong can beat either also. -10 points from liners

Many of the others have presented that a lock back is superior in the strength department, it is also a more positive lock less apt to be moved when twisting or jerking. Want to get real her OK. (like once its up thru the diaphragm or ribs into the heart and want to twist it to really open things up). What about a skull shot and you need to get it out in a hurry. In a real tactical situation the very last thing one needs is a failure. 20 Points for back locks

A nail nick is not much help with bloody or slippery hands, you can have a stud on almost any kind of lock. But a stud can also a hang up in clothing. 0 point.

Here is a tactical fact. Most people would rate the AK47 as superior to the bolt action rifle and the old M14. Yet, Carlos white feather and his spotter intercepted, attacked, killed the majority and held under cover till darkness a NVA PLATOON equipped with AK47s with a bolt action Remington and a M14. They used their equipment very tactfully and for their tactics their weapons were far superior to the numbers and equipment that the foes.

My point, anyone who actually knows real armed hand to hand combat could simply kill Naccibobacci with a "tactical" #2 lead pencil, even if Naccibobacci had his pick of knives. Its that simple. It isn't the lock its the man.

 

[SAR]

Is your problem with me calling my knife a "Utility/Tactical"

Please its just a straight forward question.
No problem Here spencer only an opinion that you yourself solicited then took offense to. What good would this forum be if everyone just patted each other on the back all the time. A lock-back that can not be closed with one hand and a thumb nick that can not be deployed with one hand cripples a tactical folder. But, if I were you I would not give a damn what I thought and would make my knife how I saw fit.

The only offense I take is that you talk at people and not to them.
If you really read my first post I do not solicit anyone's opinion, it is a post to show you what I am building.You see that quite a bit in my post because I will build what I like to build period.

Try not to get to wrap around the axle on terminology I have read plenty of accounts of "Men" in survival situations that die with a survival knife on there belt the tool did not fail they did!

This is a great thread lots of solid info if you read it in the right format

Thanks
Spencer

 

[thombrogan]

This is a great thread lots of solid info if you read it in the right format

Single malt or blended?

 

[naccibobacci]

AcridSaint,
I had the need to close a spyderco endura quickly.

bob7

Except for the Chinook 3, Manix, Mini Manix, Endura, Voyager, Espada, Native, Vaquero, Rajah...
Yeah, not a lock-back to be found.

What tactical situations require ease of one handed closing?

2. Why does a tactical knife need this "easy to close" feature you keep on about? What part of the "tactics" require this?

I don't think the efficiency or ease of closing is quite some important in a tactical folder.

I'm just curious, how exactly are you closing your lockbacks? E.g. for the mini Persian I mentioned earlier:

1) From sabre grip, pull thumb back and move index finger forward to hole (thumb moves around 2")
2) Press lockbar down, start closing blade with index finger
3) Slide thumb onto bolster, move rest of fingers out of the way and push blade the rest of the way in

Note that in step 3 (or pic 5), the knife is held between thumb and index finger, this sounds funny but actually works quite well and is rather secure for a closing operation. In the above pictures, I moved my fingers away much earlier than I usually would, usually the blade makes about a 60 degree angle with the handle before my fingers move.

The closest framelock I had was my XM-18, so I just used that for comparison:
1) Turn handle 180 degrees by (in my case) pushing thumb against spine, move index finger onto spine
2) Move thumb to lock, disengage it and push blade part-way closed
3) Move thumb out of the way and push the blade the rest of the way with index finger

Not sure what hand acrobatics are required for the lockback, especially since the framelock requires rotating the knife's handle. And as I said before, it's quicker to close the lockback. Not by much, but still quicker and easier for me.

For the sake of this discussion let's assume that Spydercos are Tactical-folders. My position is that the majority of Tactical Folder makers utilize the Frame-lock because of its strength and ability to close with one hand. You combat this by saying that Spyderco and Coldsteel offer tactical folders with Lock-back mechanisms. It was also pointed out that Extrema -Ratio offered some Tactical folders with Lock-back mechanism. Fair enough. What is interesting about all of these Tactical folders is that the makers found it necessary to move the Lock-Back trigger form the heel of the handle, where spencer places his, to the middle of the handle. Why after so many years of knife makers building their folders with lock-backs triggers on the heel of the Handle did these Tactical folder makers move the trigger towards the front of the handle? Maybe it is for the reason that TH232 Illustrated for us, so that these Tactical folders could more easily be closed with one hand.

 

[naccibobacci]

:

Originally Posted by Keith_H
"often you can close a lockback one handed with your index finger. Once you have cut what was needed to be cut, you can take your time closing it with two hands."
Originally Posted by raylaconico
"I can close a lock back more easily with one hand than I can a liner lock. I do need the side of my thigh though."
Originally Posted by Steven Penner
"Any Spyderco lock back i have i can open and close one handed"
Originally Posted by Th232
"As Steven has said, depending on how it's designed, a lockback can be closed with one hand quite easily. It all depends on where the cutout is."
Originally Posted by Th232
"Not sure what hand acrobatics are required for the lockback, especially since the framelock requires rotating the knife's handle. And as I said before, it's quicker to close the lockback. Not by much, but still quicker and easier for me."


Sounds like these Men have been practicing closing their Locked-back folders with one hand quite a bit. Not sure what your point is with this Acridsaint. Are you making my point for me?