The merits of a Lock-back on a Tactical folder?

[SAR]

Th232

Dude that is really awesome thanks for taking the time to explain that, way over the top but completely necessary.

Spencer

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

in technical terms ,

someone done been OWN3D...

thanks for the write up Th232 , well done.

 

[Th232]

Thank you SAR and JTW. However, in the interest of complete disclosure, I will say that I have made a mistake.

I just realised this on the train to uni, I only factored the bending moment into the weak points, and completely forgot about the normal and shear stresses. That's why you don't do this kind of analysis at night.

I can't be stuffed going through the full working at the moment (uni exams coming up), but I will say that while the framelock has a larger cross-sectional area at the weak point (22.5 mm^2 compared to 20 for the lockback), the shear stress on the framelock tips it over the edge. Also, if anyone is interested, look up the tensile strengths for steel and titanium. The numbers are quite interesting.

If anyone wants me to elaborate further, please say, but that said, I do have exams coming up so a reply might be a bit slow in coming.

 

[naccibobacci]

Guys, stop feeding the troll. All of the "questions" he has are answered within the thread.

Acridsaint, what are you doing back here? Couldn't help your self could you? TH232 very impressive though I had a hard time following much of what you said and I'm sure I'm not alone. I like Stabman's start much better. So the handle of the knife is placed in a vice and a hydraulic press places increasing pressure on the spine of the blade until the lock fails. Is it also possible that the blade is put into a vice and pressure is applied to the handle until the lock fails? This would better mimic real world application.

 

[AcridSaint]

It must be a compulsion. I never said I wasn't coming back though, just that I'm not answering the same questions over and over. You are a troll, maybe you don't understand what that is, maybe you don't like the title, but it's what you are.

 

[Th232]

So the handle of the knife is placed in a vice and a hydraulic press places increasing pressure on the spine of the blade until the lock fails. Is it also possible that the blade is put into a vice and pressure is applied to the handle until the lock fails? This would better mimic real world application.

It's entirely possible for the blade to be put in the vice and pressure applied to the handle, but mechanically it won't make any difference, since all that matters is the distance from the pivot and the force that's applied at that point.

Now that I think about it though, it's very possible that the handle is held on all sides, and not merely clamped in a vice, since if it were clamped, the pressure placed on the handles could affect the test. It'd be much more secure as well, since it'd eliminate the chance of the blade turning in the vice.

 

[SAR]

Thank you SAR and JTW. However, in the interest of complete disclosure, I will say that I have made a mistake.

I just realised this on the train to uni, I only factored the bending moment into the weak points, and completely forgot about the normal and shear stresses. That's why you don't do this kind of analysis at night.

I can't be stuffed going through the full working at the moment (uni exams coming up), but I will say that while the framelock has a larger cross-sectional area at the weak point (22.5 mm^2 compared to 20 for the lockback), the shear stress on the framelock tips it over the edge. Also, if anyone is interested, look up the tensile strengths for steel and titanium. The numbers are quite interesting.

If anyone wants me to elaborate further, please say, but that said, I do have exams coming up so a reply might be a bit slow in coming.

Dammit you are Fired

Spencer

 

[naccibobacci]

It must be a compulsion. I never said I wasn't coming back though, just that I'm not answering the same questions over and over. You are a troll, maybe you don't understand what that is, maybe you don't like the title, but it's what you are.

Seems like a technicality to me. Sense were passing out neat nicknames I'll call you Punk. That seems fitting. So Punk I don't recall you clearing up some of your most egregious statements. Like how it is not important to close a Tactical folder with one hand while you champion all those who testify how they can and do close their Tactical lock-backs with one hand. You also never tackled the questions as to why Tactical Lock-back folder makers like Spyderco, Coldsteel and Extrema Ratio found it necessary to move the trigger of their Tactical Lock-backs from the heel of the handle towards the front of the handle. For what reason did they do this? Then there is still that statement about how the prolific use of the Liner/Frame-locks on tactical folders by many great builders is due to them following the "Trend". Do you at least acknowledge that the two great makers, Terzuola and Reeves who have been using the Liner/Framelock for over twenty each, began the "Trend"? Anyways, good to have you back Punk.

 

[naccibobacci]

O.K. so the handle is clamped in a vise and and increasing amount of pressure is placed on the spine of the blade until the lock fails. With the exception of testing the lock I can think of no real world scenario where you would mimmic this type of action. For the sake of this debate say you are climbing steep rock and you get to a point where you either run out of pro or no pro will fit and you are about to peel off. In an act of desperation while holding on with one hand you flick your Tactical folder open with the other and stick it into a crack that fits your blade perfect, just sucks it in like a vise. All of the sudden you come of the rock and are holding on for your life from the handle of your tactical folder. I think this scenario could illustrates an unlikely but possible scenario that mimics how this test is conducted. The problem with a Lock-back in this scenario or any like it is that your fingers are pulling down on the exact trigger that will send you to your death.

 

[naccibobacci]

A better test would be to place your handle in the vise and press down on the edge of the blade. This better mimics how we really use our knives. Utilizing a Frame-lock in this scenario test the pivot bolt and the stop pin but not the lock. Utilizing the Lock-back in this scenario tests the pivot bolt and lock.

 

[AcridSaint]

The internet is a funny medium - you can call me just about anything you want and get away with it as long as the mods allow it. Another funny thing about the internet is that you have to be able to read to use many parts of it. So, until you prove to me that you can read, I'll just call you illiterate troll from now on.

First, I did not "champion" anyone for their ability to close their folders with one hand. What I did was point out that all of these people are capable of doing so when you're blathering on about how closing with two hands makes a tactical knife inferior. I never once agreed with you that it does make a knife inferior in a tactical situation, I simply made the point that these people could all do it with a lockback knife, thus making your point irrelevant.

Of all of the people who said they could close their lockbacks with one hand, only one gave any reason he needed to do so in a tactical situation. He did it with a lockback. You have yet to give one situation where this oh-so important feature is regularly used.

As for your question about why the manufacturers moved the lock, I don't have the answer. I've already said that I only mentioned one of those manufacturer's at all and I work for none. Maybe it was done out of convenience, sure it makes the knife easier to close with one hand without changing position. I've never denied that people may desire this functionality, I simply deny your overblown need for it.

Now, about my "statement" about the use of liner locks (this is where we prove you really can't read):

gained popularity with makers because they are fairly simple to make. Linerlocks are convenient and are rarely plagued with the "heavy" lock problems of many low-grade lockbacks. They also seem to be faster to mass assemble and have a "modern" look. Agree or disagree - I know many makers who can completely build a liner lock in a matter of hours.

Does that mean that every one is made for this reason? No. Does it mean that trend and convenience made them popular? Absolutely.

you keep overlooking the second part of that point - it is an easier to produce design. These locks are just easier to do.

There are some of my other statements for you to consider, illiterate troll. If these knives were not popular with buyers, few makers would would produce them. If they were equally as popular with buyers and twice as hard to make, the lockback would be more prevalent. The linerlock trend along with ease of production gave rise to the popularity we see today, spin how you like it. Call up these makers you keep speaking for and ask them to post here with their opinions.

 

[petah]

nuff said

 

[naccibobacci]

I'm back Punk. When we talk Liner/Frame-locks we are talking those of Ideal construction. There is inferior work to be found in the construction of both locks. If Liner/Frame-locks are easier to produce than Lock-backs, and this is only your opinion, why is it that the high quality custom makers are producing frame-locks and the mass produced, largely foreign made companies are producing the lock-backs? Anyone who has studied Terzuola book on Tactical folders knows how extensive, precise and time consuming the proper construction of a liner-locks is. You say the popularity of the Liner/Frame-lock is due to trend and popularity. There is a reason for this popularity. Lets compare two knives of the same construction, one standard lockback, one Frame-lock. Because of the space the lockbar and spacer occupies within the handle the lockback will house a smaller blade. This lockbar and spacer creates a "Well" which holds all types of debris, i.e. dirt, stones, lint, pennies, that could foul the locking mechanism. The space between the framelock slabs are open and much easier to keep clear. The latch on the lockbar needs to be received by a milled pocket near the area of the blade that houses the pivot. This area that is removed reduces the width of the area needed for the pivot. This either reduces the size of the pivot or reduces the size of the metal walls that surround it. Because no stock is removed from the Framelock the maker can use an oversize pivot bolt of retain more stock to house it. The Frame-lock can house a larger blade, it does not trap debris like the lockback and it can hold a larger pivot with more stock to house that pivot. A Framelock is easier to close with one hand and stop wasting your time with this "It is not important to close your folder with one hand" argument. It makes you look like a fool. We all want to close our folders with one hand. we practice it. Any time you are holding something with one hand and you need to cut it then get back to business it is necessary. It is the reason why these makers moved the lockback trigger forward.

 

[Tblock1]

Autos anyone? For me it's lockback all the way. I just got my first spyderco a week or so ago and love the lockback feel. For speed of opening I prefer the axis lock simply because I can flick the knife out easier using it, but to me the lockback feels much stronger. Oh and naccibobacci, you are an illiterate troll!:jerkit:

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

stop wasting your time with this "It is not important to close your folder with one hand" argument. It makes you look like a fool. .

If I am that concerned about needing total one hand operation , you can bet it is going to be a fixed blade and NOT a folder that I will chose to carry.

You have such a fascination with one hand folder operation , I wonder why....

:jerkit:

 

[AcridSaint]

Trust me, I'd never bother talking about one handed closing if you'd just shut up You are the one who pushed the issue. The last thing you did is "call me out" for "championing" one handed closing and after you requested that I explain this behavior you complain that I keep talking about it. Someone in this thread certainly does look like a fool.

You assume that all framelock folders must be open between the slabs, apparently you've never seen a knife which uses a spacer as a blade stop. You don't have to leave the scales open. Of course, this may not fit your personal definition of "best of breed" in framelocks. Since you're an internet authority we should all just leave it at that.

I'll let you get back to being a wannabe knifemaker/tactical handyman and stop "wasting your time" :jerkit:

 

[Tblock1]

The word would be "mall ninja" I believe.I can see naccibobacci using his one-handed "tacticool" operation to whip his knife shut after a fresh stealth kill, and complaining that the knife did not close fast enough so that he could go back to sneaking around.

 

[naccibobacci]

If I am that concerned about needing total one hand operation , you can bet it is going to be a fixed blade and NOT a folder that I will chose to carry.

You have such a fascination with one hand folder operation , I wonder why....

:jerkit:

Problem with a fixed blade Wylie is that there are many states that will not allow its residents carry fixed blade knives in public. That is the necessity of the folder. I remember your earlier comments that "no object is tactical" and that Tactical= a marketing hype buzzword. Your position screams, What are you a knife fighter? Your gonna use that 500$ tactical folder to scrape under your finger nails, that's what your gonna do. You could do that with an Opinel. In fact an Opinel in the right mans hand is tactical. I use a butter knife myself. That is an interesting comment coming from a man who likes run his mouth about his 1911. So let's turn this rational on you. That 1911 is a combat weapon Wyile. I'm very impressed you must be a real badass. Ever shoot anyone with it? It was designed to take down Philippinos high on opium during the Spanish American war. See any of those lately. That 1911 has a 9 round capacity and is semi-automatic. Is that necessary? You plan on taking on a drug cartel? Or maybe you just can't shoot worth a damn and want to increase your chances of actually hitting something. What, you have it for self defense? Well what is wrong with a zip gun or blackpowder? A zip gun in the right mans hands is deadly. I use a blackpowder myself. What are you doing with a Combat 1911 with an eight round clip, you a wannabe? Combat, semi-automatics with nine round capicity are marketing scams used to sell over priced combat weapons to Wannabees so they can run their mouths on chat forums about what badasses they are. No object is tactical? Really? Or maybe your just a rugged, independent American who realizes that life can throw some unexpected violent stuff a mans way and you want the best weapon available in case it does.

 

[naccibobacci]

The word would be "mall ninja" I believe.I can see naccibobacci using his one-handed "tacticool" operation to whip his knife shut after a fresh stealth kill, and complaining that the knife did not close fast enough so that he could go back to sneaking around.

Johnnie come lately, your pretty good with the insults now let's here your position on the merits of a traditional lock-back on a tactical folder. Or a nail nick on a tactical folder or on why Spyderco choose to move the trigger on its lockback forward. Do you close you knife with one hand? Do you think that a knife that can be closed with one hand is superior to one that must be closed with two? What is the reason for the wide popularity of the Liner/Framelock among todays best custom tactical folder makers? Do you agree that Acridsaint aka Punk sniffs his little sisters dirty underwears? These are the topics at hand.

 

[petah]

My goodness it never stops.