The merits of a Lock-back on a Tactical folder?

[naccibobacci]

"I wholeheartedly believe that the popularity of the liner/framlock has nothing to do with it's mechanical superiority and everything to do with trend. They gained a lot of momentum with buyers when they were new and and gained popularity with makers because they are fairly simple to make. Linerlocks are convenient and are rarely plagued with the "heavy" lock problems of many low-grade lockbacks. They also seem to be faster to mass assemble and have a "modern" look. Agree or disagree - I know many makers who can completely build a liner lock in a matter of hours."


What is interesting and ultimately week about this point is that it is the highly skilled Custom makers that are utilizing the frame-lock in their Tactical folders and the mass produced, low cost knife makers like Spyderco and Coldsteel who are utilizing the lock-back.

 

[naccibobacci]

I'm sure you'd love to jam it down my throat :jerkit:

And I have no doubt that you would let me.

 

[naccibobacci]

So are the things you are saying , are they your opinion or are you basing your opinion off of Bob's book , which is his take on what a Tactical Folder is ?

His and just about every other Custom Tactical folder maker out there.

 

[naccibobacci]

Is your problem with me calling my knife a "Utility/Tactical"


Please its just a straight forward question

Spencer

Nothing to say.....really

Spencer

Yes that is my problem and sense your big on answering straight forward questions answer these. Your previous Tactical folder, the 1911 TDT, constructed with a frame-lock with a thumb stud? Was it your position when designing this Tactical folder that the Frame-lock and thumbstud was the absolute best mechanism for deploying, locking and releasing the blade on this knife? Did you give "Nostalgia" as the reason for switching to a thumb nick and lock-back on this current "tactical folder"? Is nostalgia a yearning to return to the past, the exact opposite of looking to the future? So what is our problem? I am only agreeing with you. Sense we work so well together tell me this. As a respected maker of Tactical folders do you agree with the position put forth by almost everyone on this thread that the art of Tactical knife making is a marketing scheme used to sell overbuilt utilities to wannabees so they can look cool opening boxes and other mundane tasks.

 

[naccibobacci]

Having stayed away from this thread and having just read the whole thing I will make my judgments and award points. I am a make who has used knives all my life I am a 57 year old ex-Marine. I have opened them closed many and even used one to actually save my life. (lockback)

Naccibobacci, you are a close minded person who does not want an opinion other than your own. You also probably have zero real experience with tactical situations. Closing the knife is a very small concern, opening yes and thats mostly knowing your equipment. 0 points

If speed of opening and ease of closing is the main consideration liner and frame locks are not tactical because a button lock auto will beat either all too hell one handed. A balisong can beat either also. -10 points from liners

Many of the others have presented that a lock back is superior in the strength department, it is also a more positive lock less apt to be moved when twisting or jerking. Want to get real her OK. (like once its up thru the diaphragm or ribs into the heart and want to twist it to really open things up). What about a skull shot and you need to get it out in a hurry. In a real tactical situation the very last thing one needs is a failure. 20 Points for back locks

A nail nick is not much help with bloody or slippery hands, you can have a stud on almost any kind of lock. But a stud can also a hang up in clothing. 0 point.

Here is a tactical fact. Most people would rate the AK47 as superior to the bolt action rifle and the old M14. Yet, Carlos white feather and his spotter intercepted, attacked, killed the majority and held under cover till darkness a NVA PLATOON equipped with AK47s with a bolt action Remington and a M14. They used their equipment very tactfully and for their tactics their weapons were far superior to the numbers and equipment that the foes.

My point, anyone who actually knows real armed hand to hand combat could simply kill Naccibobacci with a "tactical" #2 lead pencil, even if Naccibobacci had his pick of knives. Its that simple. It isn't the lock its the man.

Closed minded? That would be one outlook or maybe you also like Mr. Golats position that I like to play devils advocate? Neither of which is true. This is my position. It is what I believe and what the evidence supports. So save your "SERMON FROM THE MOUNT" bit "Make" I can't be put on my heels. Also you write very well for a Gorilla.

 

[Destraal]

Also you write very well for a Gorilla.

Personal attacks are what show that you aren't really interested in sensible debate. You've shown that you don't want anyone else's real opinion unless it agrees with yours. So why don't you go troll somewhere else now?

 

[naccibobacci]

You can only make a framelock so strong, if the frame is too thick then it's unusable. In my opinion, a linerlock can be just as sturdy as a framelock.

I do honestly believe that trend and convenience has much to do with the making of liner lock knives. Does that mean that every one is made for this reason? No. Does it mean that trend and convenience made them popular? Absolutely. Trend is what sells things. If you don't believe that trends drive the custom and high-end production knife market you are sadly mistaken.

Acrid saint come out and play! I like this "Answer my question" game. Your playing too right? Answer me this?
Does Terzuola Exclusively make Liner/Frame-locks because he follows trends?
Does Chris Reeves, Blade Knifemaker of the year, exclusively make Frame-locks because he is a follower.
Do the men at Strider, Dwaine Carrillo and Crusader Forge exclusively make Frame-locks because the are trend followers?
Do exciting new Tactical knife makers like; Trisak, Burchtree and Willumson exclusively make Frame-locks because they wanted to utilize the lock-back but caved to the trend instead?
Was Spencer himself a trend follower when he constructed his 1911 TDT with a Frame-lock?
Is Antonanton paying a finders fee for a Framed locked Mayo because it was made with an inferior lock? maybe he'd pay more if it was constructed with a lock-back?
Why did Steve Tarani design his Tactical folder in conjunction with Strider and Buck Knives to Have a Liner-lock. Is Steve a Follower?
What about Attwood or Wilkins of Germany? Do they utilize the frame lock to satisfy a trend?
Maybe if these Makers were stronger willed they would have put lock-backs on their Tactical folders and we wouldn't be having so much fun!
What were these Makers thinking, putting a locking mechanism on a tactical folder that is structurally inferior to the lock-back? Are they trying to cut us or something? Also why did these makers put a locking mechanism on their Tactical folders that could so easily be closed with one hand? Why would all of us Tactical knife owners want a knife that can be closed with one hand when we could have one that we could close with two?
And why do so many people pay so much money for a Tactical folder when everyone knows that an Opinel or butterknife in a capable mans hand is Tactical?
And what's is up with the thumbstud and spydie hole when the thumb nick works so well? And ..........................................?

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

So are the things you are saying , are they your opinion or are you basing your opinion off of Bob's book , which is his take on what a Tactical Folder is ?

His and just about every other Custom Tactical folder maker out there.

once again , I could care less what makers call them , there is no way you can convince me that an object is tactical , so yes it is a marketing term. Tactical is an action , not an object.

I guess baseball bats are tactical too , and a street brick , and a crowbar.

As far as your comments about Spyderco and the like using the lockback , there are just as many low end companies using the framelock or linerlock , so that argument carries no weight.

I have linerlocks , framelocks , slip joints and lockbacks. Key is the ones I own are all quality made , and I doubt either will fail me , for using a knife as it is intended , as a knife.

Just as a handgun is for fighting your way to your long gun , perhaps the folder is just tool to use to fight your way to a fixed blade .


It is evident by your posts that you are borderline trolling at this point.:jerkit:

 

[AcridSaint]

OK, I know you're not worth the time to try and sort out all of your nonsensical replies. First and foremost - I will ignore all of your other writing errors (I'm no grammar Nazi), but if you say "your" instead of "you're" to me one more time I will not "play". You might also try to stop screwing up your quotes so that people can actually read the posts.

Next - You have been advocating since the start of this thread that the tactical folder must be able to close quickly or it will be crippled. How is it that you couldn't come up with a single reason to back up the claim? Now suddenly one guy had one situation and it's the staple of your argument. I'm sure there's been a soldier somewhere who needed a leather punch, but we don't put those on tactical folders. Give me a reason that he couldn't have use the knife and then discarded it. Also, did you even notice that he used a lock back?

You keep saying that the liner/framelock design is more efficient to close because you can do it one-handed. You also keep saying how important it is in a tactical folder. I pointed out that everyone on this thread can close lock back knives one handed, thus helping to disprove your point that frame/linerlocks are superior based on this mythical one-handed closing.

You've mentioned cold-steel when talking to or about me, let me set the record straight here - I never spoke of cold-steel knives. Regardless of what they use or don't use, I never spoke of them. Spyderco also uses liner lock knives, so I guess your cheap knives argument goes both directions. You can buy a cheap linerlock from just about every company out there.

You are apparently so offended by my saying this lock design was/is trendy (which is the truth) that you keep overlooking the second part of that point - it is an easier to produce design. These locks are just easier to do. Here is something to consider - a tactical liner lock knife has a price ceiling. If you could sell a knife for $600, would you rather spend 2 hours on it or 10? Lockback knives are not as convenient to make.

There are only so many names out there who can make anything and sell it. Most makers must follow trends to some extent. Are you really saying that all of these top makers would make the "best" knife regardless of what their customers want?

I will state AGAIN I am not against liner lock folders - actually I rather like them. I am not against framelock folders (I've got one I'm working on right now). I am ALSO not against lock back folders. You have yet to show me what cripples them as a tactical folder.

You want to modify your positions throughout this thread so I'm not going to address you on strength, lock position or nail nicks. You did not mention nail nicks "crippling" lockbacks in the first post, you did not qualify your post with "you can't talk about lockbacks that have moved the lock" and you keep switching between "the framelock is the strongest" and "I don't disagree lockbacks are strong enough" tbh232 has mentioned several times that many knife enthusiasts believe the locking mechanism on the lockback blade to be superior. You continue to sidestep his point.

You're not worth any more time. You're not going to listen to any opinions other than your own and you're going to keep whining and taking things out of context until people just give in.

 

[Th232]

I think this is the third time I've posted it:

From Sal Glesser on the Spyderco forum:

Hi Poodle,

We've gotten to the point where we can make most locks as strong as we plan for. The Lockback as seen on the Chinook (Manix & 83mm), the ball bearing, Compression and the new Stop-lock can be built into the Very Heavy Duty (MBC - 200 inch/lbs per inch of blade length) range. We select materials and dimentions to meet the requirement we sedt for the model.

We've not been able to get Walker linerlocks or "framelocks" into that range due to the long spring.......yet. But we're still developing.

I think most locks can be made to be strong and reliable if the manufacturer extends the effort.

sal

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24676

For transparency, that was posted in 06, and to date we still don't have any liner/framelocks that meet that rating. Lockbacks, compression locks, ball locks, yes, liner/framelocks, no.

Given the above, there are two theories:

1) Sal is incompetent. A man who has spent over 25 years in the knifemaking industry, has developed several new locks, and has designed many of them (and the lockback) to fall into their highest strength class. He has failed to do so with the liner/framelock. Incompetent? I doubt it.

2) Liner/framelocks have an inherent weakness, which Sal has also mentioned. Mechanically, it is a true statement. I have also offered this before, and the offer still stands, if you want, I can produce a qualitative mechanical analysis on why a lockback will, in the end, be stronger than a liner/framelock.

BTW, why use a liner/framelock?
1) They're good enough. Frankly, if something fails under 300 pounds of stress, I think you're going to be in much worse shape than the knife.
2) It's easier to put together. John, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the number of surfaces that have to be mated and aligned correctly on a lockback is much greater than that on a liner/framelock. Quicker to produce.
3) Less parts, therefore cheaper to produce.

None of which apply to which is stronger.

BTW, +1 on AcridSaint noting how you're constantly having to qualify things and switching POV.

 

[bob7]

AcridSaint, Th232, JTW, Jr.,

Good posts. Too bad they're written to a troll, but they are excellent posts.

naccibabble needs to get back on his meds.

bob7

 

[Lukthree]

these topics always make me laugh. which lock is better is a totally subjective thing based on each persons preferences and experiences.
someone in a tactical situation wearing gloves, or in wet/slippery conditions might want a different lock than someone not wearing gloves. there are lots of other variables

I will throw in my two cents though...

liner locks are no doubt one of the cheapest locks to build into a knife. a <b>cheap</b> liner lock may fail under unintended conditions (i.e. a spine whack or stabbing a hard object)

liner locks CAN be built to overcome their weaknesses, but that takes smaller tolerances in material and even better materials in some cases, which will drive the cost up and probably end up costing more than a cheap lock back which will offer the same durability

a cheap lock back may be slightly more costly to include in a folder design than a cheap liner lock however it will not fail (at least in my experiences)

about the whole quote from Sal Glesser...

spydercos lockback design is sturdy, dependable, and cost efficient, to produce a comparably dependable and sturdy liner lock would most likely cost more.

as for closing liner locks one handed... most lockback spydercos have a large ricasso, which enables you to depress the lock with your thumb and give the knife a short flick forward landing the dull ricasso on your index finger, then you can close the knife one handed pretty easily

discussing which lock YOU prefer and why makes sense

arguing about which lock is THE BEST is plain silly

 

[galadduin]

I see folders as easy to carry knives, no more. It is may be due to the very low crime rates in this particular area of the world. No one I know prefers any fast opening/closing systems if they are not durable as a fixed blade. The lock mechanism of AG Russel's design for example is one of the most durable designs that I know. I have one example of that, people here fall in love with the durability. But it is too hard to close it. But nearly impossible to see one fail...

So it depend to not just liking but the need and usage. If i were looking for a folder to conceal and stick it to someone I would prefer an auto...

 

[naccibobacci]

naccibobacci,
You're just trolling at this point. Please go back to your Short Bus Forum.

AcridSaint,
I had the need to close a spyderco endura quickly. I had just jumped out of a C130 aircraft, my chute had deployed, and I was trying to lower my rucksack and rifle on my lowering line. The shoestring tie down to lower the lowering line wouldn't budge so I pulled out the endura, cut the string, put the knife away, lowered the equipment, and then hit the ground using a F-ed up parachute landing fall.

bob7

Sort Bus? That's pretty funny Bob! What is even funnier is how while you were slapping your Homeboy Acridsaint one the back you were also assisting me in making my point, That there are times when it is necessary to close your folder with one hand. This point was also backed up by all of you in this thread who attested strongly that you can and do close your Lock-backs with one hand. Sounds like you've been practicing. Not only that but people like to close their folders with one hand. How do you explain the popularity of the Balli-song, a Phillipino "fighting" knife and one of the oldest folders out there, that was designed to be closed with one hand. See you on the short bus Bob.

 

[naccibobacci]

So Acridsaint you're throwing in the towel? Screaming "Uncle" just when I've got you up against the ropes? That doesn't surprise me. But, before you scurry off with Bob7 the sniff your little sister's dirty underwears answer me this. The two main positions that you defend in this thread have been that 1. it is not necessary to be able to close your Tactical folder with one hand and 2. that you champion all the members in this thread you attest that they CAN and DO close their Lock-backs with one hand. How do you reconcile these two positions?

 

[naccibobacci]

Acridsaint, I forgot your other position, That Bob Terzuola has been making the ATCF for 23 years and Chris Reeves the Sebenza for 21 years because they gave into the "Trend". When will these Makers learn?

 

[petah]

... But, before you scurry off with Bob7 the sniff your little sister's dirty underwears...

I admit I haven't been following this thread but this isSO uncalled for.... These people here all share the same passion and go well out of their way to help others out...

 

[naccibobacci]

This is a straight-up question. Why is it that when constructing their Tactical Lock-backs Spyderco, Cold Steel and Extrema-Ration found it necessary to move the Lock-back trigger from the heel of the handle to the middle?

 

[AcridSaint]

Either you're trolling you're illiterate. Folks who actually read this thread will know that the words you keep trying to put in my mouth (and we've already established that you want to put things in my mouth) are just as worthless as your position.

 

[SAR]

Maybe this thread should go to "Wine and Cheese" to give it more merit?

Spencer