The Original 0777

Status
Not open for further replies.
I wrote about similarities of ZT 0777 to Dmitry SiDis knives in overall appearance, here at Kershaw Knives / Zero Tolerance a couple of month ago. And was giving a link to russian forum guns.ru to the thread with pictures of SiDis knives. It not looks like a copy of any specific knife of his but overall shape lines look like one of SiDis knife, lock bar like another, clip like third..


Have a look please. Especially the shape of the handle..
Some photos of SiDis knives -
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003281/3281285.jpg
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003277/3277124.jpg
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/004250/4250056.jpg
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/004289/4289471.jpg
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003280/3280496.jpg


Here the thread in russian
http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/5/626540.html
 
Pizis said:
I wrote about similarities of ZT 0777 to Dmitry SiDis knives in overall appearance, here at Kershaw Knives / Zero Tolerance a couple of month ago. And was giving a link to russian forum guns.ru to the thread with pictures of SiDis knives. It not looks like a copy of any specific knife of his but overall shape lines look like one of SiDis knife, lock bar like another, clip like third..


Have a look please. Especially the shape of the handle..
Some photos of SiDis knives -
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003281/3281285.jpg
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003277/3277124.jpg
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/004250/4250056.jpg
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/004289/4289471.jpg
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003280/3280496.jpg


Here the thread in russian
http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/5/626540.html
Click to expand...

And so he shows up wanting no $$ but some sort of homage as the creator of the design? The similarity is about as close as a lemon to a pineapple IMO. He may be the world's nicest guy - I don't know - or not, but this is the ZT 0777 and doesn't look like that knife he displayed at all to me.
 
cziv said:
And so he shows up wanting no $$ but some sort of homage as the creator of the design? The similarity is about as close as a lemon to a pineapple IMO. He may be the world's nicest guy - I don't know - or not, but this is the ZT 0777 and doesn't look like that knife he displayed at all to me.
Click to expand...
I do not know..but I see some similarities in shape. I think not like lemon to pineapple but like lemon to orange for sure:)
 
I dunno they do look alittle alike


6046851259_74f36735d9_b.jpg

3277124.jpg

NU8AX.jpg
 
Thanks for sharing Pizis, and I would tend to agree with you after looking at your pics. ...It's pretty obvious from your pictures that there are definite influences between more than one of the SiDiS designs and the Kershaw.

4250056.jpg

BladeShow2011AwardKnifeFrontBacksmall.jpg

00148c3p.jpg
 
Last edited:
A couple of the the images that you posted are very rough looking by comparison to the very refined ZT 0777. Blade shape is different hunks of metal in places I couldn't begin to understand why? Pivot looks different but I can't it's internals. I can't tell which is the MT and which one is Dmitry's claim?

I made my post based on the knife he entered the discussion with below. I just looked at the other links and a couple of them are vaguely similar, the others aren't "to me." These aren't IMO.

00148c3p


3281285.jpg


3280496.jpg
 
It does look like there was an influence, but mostly because they both have a very different design from the usual folding knife. There aren't that many knives with that exact type of wharncliffe-ish blade profile, so it's easier to see the similarity between these two knives. There are a lot of simple, more conventional designs that look similar, but no one thinks they're related. Look at knives like the Al Mar SERE vs. the Emerson CQC-15. I'd think that they have a lot more in common than these two knives do.

The MT, however, is clearly a copy.
 
^ good point!
I think the cqc11 and the sere are an even closer example.
 
Thanks for the reply Los Angeles.
I'll digest this in and out, maybe do a bit of research, but this was definitely helpful.

btw you mentioned you don't see a stop in Dmitrys design.
I would think that a frame attached "below" the scale would be protected from overextending "above" the scale.
What I am getting at is that even though the stop may not be clearly indicated, it may actually be there by design.

As for this part.
Los Angeles said:
If there are screws in the sub frame lock design, they are hidden. They might not be there at all.
Click to expand...
The screws for the sub frame lock in the 0777 are under the pocket clip as far as I've seen.
 
MacXL said:
Thanks for the reply Los Angeles.
I'll digest this in and out, maybe do a bit of research, but this was definitely helpful.

btw you mentioned you don't see a stop in Dmitrys design.
I would think that a frame attached "below" the scale would be protected from overextending "above" the scale.
What I am getting at is that even though the stop may not be clearly indicated, it may actually be there by design.

As for this part.

The screws for the sub frame lock in the 0777 are under the pocket clip as far as I've seen.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your response and the location of the screws. Seems counter intuitive that they would be way over there, but I don't see them anywhere else, so it makes sense.

I think in the russian design the thin part of the lock bar is exposed. Everything above that is what moves, and none of it comes close to the frame. since everything under the scale does not move, the scale does not provide a stop.

But in the 0777, the thin flexible part of the lock bar is not exposed - it's under the scale somewhere. That means that a part of the lock bar is moving under the scale and the scale can act as a stop.

I hope that makes sense.
 
I also would like to add that there is a HUGE gap between "influenced by" and direct commercial copying. In the legal sense, in the creative sense AND in the moral sense being influenced by someone else's work is a far cry from copying directly.

Think of it like music.

There were a lot of bands that sounded just like Van Halen. They borrowed the sound and the way Eddie Van Halen played guitar solos. They dressed similarly and made videos and a lot of them sold a lot of records. But did they play the exact same songs? Did they just go around playing Hot For Teacher and pretend that they wrote it? No. they wrote their own music, even if it wasn't as good.

Nirvana borrowed a lot of their ideas from the Pixies. And fate would make Nirvana the superstars and make the Pixies just this band that a lot of people have heard of but not many have actually heard. Did Nirvana copy the pixies note-for-note? No. They wrote their own songs. But the influence was tremendous.



OK, so now that I see more of Dimitry's designs, I can believe a scenario that the designers at kershaw/ZT may have been influenced by the sweeping lines and the geometry of this far-away knifemaker. There are a lot of similarities, for sure.

But they didn't copy him note-for-note. They didn't trace. They seem to me to have written their own songs.

By contrast, what Microtech has done is just go around playing "Hot for Teacher" and telling everyone that they've never heard of Van Halen. Which is obviously total crap.
 
And sorry for a three-post break in etiquette, but I just want to say once again that Dmitry's designs are very cool. Good job, sir!
 
My name is Jim MacNair, and I headed up the ZT 0777 project.

I would like to address the statements that have been made concerning the design of the 0777. First off, I’d like to be clear that any similarities between this knife and SiDiS’s work are unintentional. We went through lots of design concepts for the 0777, and the knife continued to evolve throughout the design and prototyping process.

Some have suggested that this design was influenced by several of SiDiS’s designs. I am familiar with SiDis’s work, and I’m sure his style has been an influence. I also believe that we have similarities in our style of design. However, it’s important to note that there were many things inside and outside the world of knives that influenced the design of the 0777.

Influences play an important role in the design process, and designing knives is no exception. Designers would love to say that every design was inspired by a suspension bridge or a cool motorcycle, but oftentimes it is as simple as sitting around sketching. The images that come out of our heads have a lot to do with what we see – and people in this industry see a lot of knives. Many makers are influenced by their peers, and many will even say so. There are thousands and thousands of folding knives out there, and plenty of them share similarities. Most designers will recognize an outright copy, but sometimes it can be difficult to tell if we are letting our influences show too much.

At KAI, we work very hard to make sure our products don’t look too much like designs from other makers and companies. Originality is very important, and generally, it is the more difficult road. Kershaw / ZT have been known for a particular look for a long time, and as you may see, that look is gradually changing. The R&D group has been given directives from the top to come up with original designs, mechanisms, and overall concepts. Originality and innovation are key to our continued success as an organization. We believe that the Echelon, the Knockout, and the Burst represent examples of our innovations in styling and function. I still believe the 0777 stands as its’ own design.

Thank you,

Jim
 
jimmer_5 said:
My name is Jim MacNair, and I headed up the ZT 0777 project.
I would like to address the statements that have been made concerning the design of the 0777......................
Click to expand...

Thank you for your clarification Jim. Influences do play a huge part in the design process and often some of the greatest "designs" are a fusion of other ideas. You took a look at the frame lock and came up with the 0777. Yours is a unique design and one you can be proud of.

I feel that the crux of this thread is that Tony Marfione/Microtech did intentionally and deliberately copy the 0777 for the purposes of financial gain and spite. Of that there can be no doubt.
 
jimmer_5 said:
My name is Jim MacNair, and I headed up the ZT 0777 project.

I would like to address the statements that have been made concerning the design of the 0777. First off, I’d like to be clear that any similarities between this knife and SiDiS’s work are unintentional. We went through lots of design concepts for the 0777, and the knife continued to evolve throughout the design and prototyping process.

Some have suggested that this design was influenced by several of SiDiS’s designs. I am familiar with SiDis’s work, and I’m sure his style has been an influence. I also believe that we have similarities in our style of design. However, it’s important to note that there were many things inside and outside the world of knives that influenced the design of the 0777.

Influences play an important role in the design process, and designing knives is no exception. Designers would love to say that every design was inspired by a suspension bridge or a cool motorcycle, but oftentimes it is as simple as sitting around sketching. The images that come out of our heads have a lot to do with what we see – and people in this industry see a lot of knives. Many makers are influenced by their peers, and many will even say so. There are thousands and thousands of folding knives out there, and plenty of them share similarities. Most designers will recognize an outright copy, but sometimes it can be difficult to tell if we are letting our influences show too much.

At KAI, we work very hard to make sure our products don’t look too much like designs from other makers and companies. Originality is very important, and generally, it is the more difficult road. Kershaw / ZT have been known for a particular look for a long time, and as you may see, that look is gradually changing. The R&D group has been given directives from the top to come up with original designs, mechanisms, and overall concepts. Originality and innovation are key to our continued success as an organization. We believe that the Echelon, the Knockout, and the Burst represent examples of our innovations in styling and function. I still believe the 0777 stands as its’ own design.

Thank you,

Jim
Click to expand...


Very nicely said Jimmer. A wonderful job on the 0777, it has generated a ton of interest and a lot of drooling in the knife world.

Dave
 
Yeah, I've been wearing one of my Grandsons bibs from the first time I set eyes on the 0777. Hope I can take it off before summer roll's around.
 
I never thought the lock was even in the debate.
Does this lock use a coil spring like the Microbar lock?

Hope this knife shows up soon! Have not seen it since June at Blade. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top