The Original 0777

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presz said:
23052-1.jpg

BladeShow2011AwardKnifeFrontBacksmall.jpg


Looks like they are related. ;)
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SiDiS said:
Hi guys!
I've always liked Kershaw knives for their originality and quality. I was very puzzled when I saw the 777 model.

I should say that I do not have the one model of the knife, which could be inspired for creating 777, while lines look very familiar.

Also, I was surprised when I saw the locking system 777. The fact is that in December 2008 I put on the big Russian forum "guns.ru" pictures of my knife with a my new locking system which I called "modified frame". "Subframe" is identical to my locking system. Honestly I do not know what to think.
It's a picture of "modified frame"

00148c3p


I tried to contact Kershaw through the options available on the site for possible cooperation, but received no response
I'm not a frequent visitor to the forums and I'm glad I found this topic.

Thaks, Dmitry
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Lets be clear Dmitry
...Are you taking claim to this ?
 
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Dmitry, can you describe the benefits of splitting the frame lock design into two pieces in your design? What problem were you solving and what benefits does your design have over the Reeve frame lock?
 
bigmark408 said:
IMO, your frame lock looks much like the original frame lock design that has been replicated un-countable times.
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It may be similar to the classic frame lock, but there is important structure: light carbon/G10/... frame and titanium/steel framelock as separate part.
 
Los Angeles said:
Dmitry, can you describe the benefits of splitting the frame lock design into two pieces in your design? What problem were you solving and what benefits does your design have over the Reeve frame lock?
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I like the lightweight knives and framelock. So I combined a lightweight carbon frame and a titanium bar of the framelock :)
 
Los Angeles said:
It's made of two materials joined together, one material for the scale and one for the lock bar. I think that he's claiming "ownership" of the idea of joining the two together in this manner, but I'm waiting to hear confirmation from the designer on this point.
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Understood now .... IMO, this doesn't justify what MT has done .... MT has a long reputation for these kinds of acts and it's no secret.
 
SiDiS said:
It may be similar to the classic frame lock, but there is important structure: light carbon/G10/... frame and titanium/steel framelock as separate part.
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So you admit that yours is a modification of the original framelock .... ZT has also modified the original design at a higher level.

MT's design (IMO) appears to be a direct copy.... (with all due respect)how does your claim justify what MT has done ?
 
I don't think he's talking about Microtech in any way. But since Microtech copied 99% of the 0777 design, if Dimitry has any kind of intellectual property rights to a two-piece framelock concept, it would surely cover both companies.

Unfortunately, due to complexities in international IP laws, he might not have much to do. The 0777 was the first introduction directly to the American market. A claim that a similar lock bar style was posted on a russian website in the russian language MIGHT be enough to prevent Kershaw from enforcing a patent on that specific idea. But I don't know what patents kershaw has pursued in regards to the 0777.

I will say that the simplest patent to get (and hardest to enforce) is the American Design patent. This is a patent that covers the SHAPE of an object, rather than it's functional invention. My experience in IP suggests that if Kershaw did file for a design patent on the SHAPE of the 0777, they've got MT dead-to-rights. Since the two-piece frame locks are different shapes between Russian design and the 0777, the russian design would not be seen as anticipatory.

If, however, Kershaw is pursuing a utility patent - a patent on the functional invention - of the two-piece lock bar itself, Dimitry's design could be problematic.
 
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It seems that ZT modification is the similar as mine physically.
I do not know what Tony wanted to say, making the project X
 
Dmitry has been a member here for some years....this thread is his first posts.... I am just asking him to be clear on what he is looking for here.

ZT has gone as far as getting a trademark....i don't see any malice on there behalf.
 
I'm not trying to earn easy money on KAI Corp.

My interest in this theme is simple: I do not want to conflict with the Kershaw / ZT in the future, working on the knife with my "modified frame" and will be more then pleased if my primary authorship is indicated.

And I'll be happy if in the future I could work with Kershaw or ZT :)

PS: I apologize for my English - it is not my native language:)
 
Dmitry could we see more pictures of your knives in another thread? I'm very interested in your work. Sorry to go off topic of this thread.
 
Awesome, Dmitry! BTW. I think Kershaw worked their asses off to get the patent on the subframelock before the 2011 Shotshow. They did it so they could reveal the Knockout at the show. Reference; Nutnfancy boot review from SHOT 2011.
 
cziv said:
I saw them in sales and for sale pictures and have read simiar threads about their problems. Over $3k for that plastic POS is a luxury for rich guys I guess, I'd want to storm their headquarters and get a refund myself. Well, not really I'd probably get shot by Microtech thugs. :mad:
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Yeah. If anyone wants an AUG badly, they could hold out for the new imports:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/05/30/steyr-aug-us-sales-will-continue/

Odds are they'd still be pricey, in which case I'd rather get a MR556 or SCAR.
 
SiDiS said:
I'm not trying to earn easy money on KAI Corp.

My interest in this theme is simple: I do not want to conflict with the Kershaw / ZT in the future, working on the knife with my "modified frame" and will be more then pleased if my primary authorship is indicated.

And I'll be happy if in the future I could work with Kershaw or ZT :)

PS: I apologize for my English - it is not my native language:)
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If all of this is true, then the irony is that you may end up needing Kershaws permission to use your own invention.
For in todays world, it doesn't matter who invents stuff, it only matters who patents it.

But not to judge prematurely, can we get a comment from KAI on how the SubFrame lock was invented/developed?
Any influence from Dmitris knife?
 
MacXL said:
If all of this is true, then the irony is that you may end up needing Kershaws permission to use your own invention.
For in todays world, it doesn't matter who invents stuff, it only matters who patents it.

But not to judge prematurely, can we get a comment from KAI on how the SubFrame lock was invented/developed?
Any influence from Dmitris knife?
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Its Sunday, might want to at least let the guys show up at their desks.
 
MacXL said:
If all of this is true, then the irony is that you may end up needing Kershaws permission to use your own invention.
For in todays world, it doesn't matter who invents stuff, it only matters who patents it.
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This is not correct.

In the United States, if someone came up with an invention prior to the issuing of a patent, then the patent is not valid. It requires lawyers to get there, but there we are.

In certain european countries, your first-to-file-takes-the-prize scenario is true, but not in the U.S.

I see many bold differences between Dmitry's "Modified Frame Lock" and KAI's "Sub-Frame Lock". Most notable is that Dmitry's design doesn't seem to have a stop for over extension, where the KAI design takes advantage of the two-piece construction to provide a stop. The modified frame lock design is joined with two screws. If there are screws in the sub frame lock design, they are hidden. They might not be there at all.

A common example when teaching kids about how patents work is to use the chair:

Someone builds a stool and describes it as a thing you sit on that has a seat and four legs.
Someone else sees that stool and adds a back. This person gets a new patent - for a stool WITH A BACK. His patent does not cover the stool, just the back.
Someone else sees the stool with a back and adds two curved rails to the legs. Thisperson gets a patent too - for a stool with a back with ROCKERS. The rockers are the invention. This new invention does not cover the seat, the legs or the back, those were invented by others. The new invention only covers the rockers.

- - - -

When considering how the patent system works, It's easy to see that the only similarity between the modified frame lock and the sub frame lock is the two-piece construction. How they are joined, where the lock bar bends, the addition of a stop feature and many more are very different between the two. KAI would then patent the things that are different and site Dmitry as "prior art" - in other words, "he took a stool and added a back to it and called it a chair. We invented a ROCKING chair."
 
Inlaying a lockbar into an all carbon fiber knife was done a long time ago. It hasnt been taken to the beauty of Kershaw's 0777 but it has been around at least since 2000 as far as I know.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...LES?highlight=carson+carbon+fiber+inlaid+lock

Third post down from Walt Welch. That was posted in April of 2000.

As far as trademarking a name (Sub-Frame Lock) or getting a patent on it's design, I think those are 2 completely different animals. IMO you would have seen Patent Pending on the proto's if that was the case.

Suffice it to say Kershaw has been around a looooong time. They either have lawyers on staff or on retainer. They have spend millions defending there products. So if this was a patentable item (Sub-Lock Bar or the knife design) I am sure they would have done that before the knife was released. Reading between the lines I think Thomas may just waiting to hear from the other company's owner before he makes any more statements?

With all that being said I do hope Kershaw looks into Dmitry's knives for possible future knife collaborations.
 
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