The plague of S30V and S35VN

[omaha-beenglockin]

Have a heck of a time keeping my Manix II's sharp----my PM2 stays pretty sharp----just bought a Presidio II auto last night in S30V and haven't used it enough to have an opinion on Benchmade's version.

So at this point, I'm having mixed feelings on these steels.

I do know I can get VG-10 and 154CM incredibly sharp---so not really wanting to move on from those steels.

 

[BellaBlades]

Sometimes I feel toothy S30V and 154CM have seen thier days.
However.
A well treated S35VN CPM154 and D2 are welcome on my EDC. I dont need anything beyond that. But PD1 and M390 are dreamy.
Then I look at my AFO II with 154cm. I carry it on duty and for utility. I thrash on it and rarely sharpen it. I would trust my life with it.
So maybe this "issue" is mostly just in our heads and some folks just dont know how to sharpen a knife.

 

[bhyde]

If "they" were, then S30V, S35VN, CPM 154 and CPM 3V are failures at what they were "intended" for: Hard to sharpen for the first 3, and yet all 4 lose their apex stability with astonishing ease (I still marvel at how they managed that): The apex instantly grabs the nail on one side after any kind of impact-type contact with any type of wood, sometimes grabbing the nail even after just slicing thin cardboard (Gerber S30V)...

Maybe a really steep micro-bevel would perform a miracle, and stabilize the "wobbly apex syndrome", revealing a truly wear-resistant edge, but the trouble is a 20 dps main bevel (40 degrees total) should not require a micro-bevel going up in the 30s (a whopping 60 degrees total) when some of the older and less glamorous steels stabilize their apex even below the 20s.

The reality is the entire concept of Crucible Particle Metallurgy was never intended for knives: Most CPM steels were solely intended for industrial use, and knives were just an add-on when they realized there was a more "mainstream" market with an insatiable hunger for novelty.

There is nothing "scientific" about knife use, so they knew they could push any outrageous claim based on industrial data, and claim it applied to knives... It obviously doesn't. There were many CPM steels before any that were "intended" for knives, and perhaps they work well enough... For industrial use...

I remember the hype surrounding CPM steels when they were announced in knife mags in the mid-1990s: It went even beyond the ATS 34 lunacy, for those who remember the heydays of that: They were literally claiming this new "process" would make other knife steels obsolete. I kid you not. Hard to reconcile these claims with how poorly this stuff actually works, which, for apex stability, is about on par with low-end sub $30 Chinese Kershaws, or no name brand generic "440".

Maybe the crooked apex does cut longer than a low end Kershaw: After all, probably entire empires were won with rolled edges... That doesn't mean I have to like this on my knives.

Gaston

You better start providing some proof of your claims to these magazine articles. Currently, you just swing in, drop a deuce on the carpet and walk out the front door and never return after dropping said deuce.
For what it's worth, there are a great many materials that find tangential uses after they are developed. CPM's being one of them. Saying that they were developed for industrial use and not realizing that there are a great many things that CUT in an industrial setting is ludicrous.

Tick tock- better find those articles...

 

[Cursum Perficio]

If "they" were, then S30V, S35VN, CPM 154 and CPM 3V are failures at what they were "intended" for: Hard to sharpen for the first 3, and yet all 4 lose their apex stability with astonishing ease (I still marvel at how they managed that): The apex instantly grabs the nail on one side after any kind of impact-type contact with any type of wood, sometimes grabbing the nail even after just slicing thin cardboard (Gerber S30V)...

Maybe a really steep micro-bevel would perform a miracle, and stabilize the "wobbly apex syndrome", revealing a truly wear-resistant edge, but the trouble is a 20 dps main bevel (40 degrees total) should not require a micro-bevel going up in the 30s (a whopping 60 degrees total) when some of the older and less glamorous steels stabilize their apex even below the 20s.

The reality is the entire concept of Crucible Particle Metallurgy was never intended for knives: Most CPM steels were solely intended for industrial use, and knives were just an add-on when they realized there was a more "mainstream" market with an insatiable hunger for novelty.

There is nothing "scientific" about knife use, so they knew they could push any outrageous claim based on industrial data, and claim it applied to knives... It obviously doesn't. There were many CPM steels before any that were "intended" for knives, and perhaps they work well enough... For industrial use...

I remember the hype surrounding CPM steels when they were announced in knife mags in the mid-1990s: It went even beyond the ATS 34 lunacy, for those who remember the heydays of that: They were literally claiming this new "process" would make other knife steels obsolete. I kid you not. Hard to reconcile these claims with how poorly this stuff actually works, which, for apex stability, is about on par with low-end sub $30 Chinese Kershaws, or no name brand generic "440".

Maybe the crooked apex does cut longer than a low end Kershaw: After all, probably entire empires were won with rolled edges... That doesn't mean I have to like this on my knives.

Gaston

 

[SW-EDC]

Funny, now that M390 is out..or the latest "magic steel", all these others don't seem to matter to some. Sad.
How HARD, do some really use their knives?

 

[gadgetgeek]

I wonder if one of the "problems" with these higher end steels is that you can get a really big burr, that is actually pretty stable under light use? I wonder, can something like 35vn hold a measurably larger and more durable burr than something like 1095 or aus-6 which while they do burr, don't as much?
Biggest single thing that has changed my knife use, was going from stones only to strop finishing with green. I use the lee valley stuff, but whatever works. As good as I think I am, I'm still free-hand, and that will cause a burr kinda no matter what. It might not be easy being green, but it sure makes for sharp edges.

 

[Wunderbar]

I recently read a post here from a Kershaw Rep saying that 14C28N will dull quicker than $30V but hold a razors edge longer. My personal experience with $30V is on my Microtech UMS. Very hard to sharpen but it could be caused by a wide edge.

 

[James Y]

If "they" were, then S30V, S35VN, CPM 154 and CPM 3V are failures at what they were "intended" for: Hard to sharpen for the first 3, and yet all 4 lose their apex stability with astonishing ease (I still marvel at how they managed that): The apex instantly grabs the nail on one side after any kind of impact-type contact with any type of wood, sometimes grabbing the nail even after just slicing thin cardboard (Gerber S30V)...

Maybe a really steep micro-bevel would perform a miracle, and stabilize the "wobbly apex syndrome", revealing a truly wear-resistant edge, but the trouble is a 20 dps main bevel (40 degrees total) should not require a micro-bevel going up in the 30s (a whopping 60 degrees total) when some of the older and less glamorous steels stabilize their apex even below the 20s.

The reality is the entire concept of Crucible Particle Metallurgy was never intended for knives: Most CPM steels were solely intended for industrial use, and knives were just an add-on when they realized there was a more "mainstream" market with an insatiable hunger for novelty.

Gaston

Both S30V and S35VN were specifically formulated for knives. You would know that if you knew what you were talking about. I have no experience with CPM154 and 3V, but I've had no trouble sharpening either S30V or S35VN. Have you ever thought that the only "failure" regarding these steels is your lack of sharpening ability?

Jim

 

[midnight flyer]

Being a knife nut, of course I keep an eye on new models, and always look to see if I can find the next new knife I can fall madly in love with (until the next thing comes around). It's the nature of the beast when it comes to collecting.

**** SNIP ****

Am I the only one seriously fed up with these steels flooding the market?

The good news is that all you need to do is wait a few months and another "super steel" will come out, or some maker/manufacturer will "rediscover" some older steel. Some folks will hate the new steel, compare it to their favorite and declare it a fraud. Others will love it and be ready to repurchase all their favorite knives in that steel, spending many hundreds to do it.

All manufacturers have to have something to sell. What better way to satisfy the demands of their public than to deliver a new steel? Take a favorite model, put in the "latest and greatest" and get even more miles out of it. And while the industry is buzzing its new baby, it is a perfect time to deliver a new model.

We certainly benefit from this "innovation" in steel technology, but as much as anything it seems to be smart marketing to wring a few more dollars out of knife model by declaring that two ounces of one metal is worth $150 more than the same knife with the same blade that has a "lesser" steel. No doubt these newer steels perform better in many instances, but I think the margins/marketing tell the tale.

So hang on. We should have the newest, latest and greatest after the Christmas/end of year inventor supplies are depleted.

Robert

 

[Climb14er]

Two of my favorite knives, EDC... and I also have S90V, M2 and 1095 for carry... are Spyderco S30V. Absolutely zero issues what so ever with this steel.

 

[stabman]

Today, a fancy new machine that costs over $100000 showed up at the lab.
It was in 4 boxes, strapped to pallets, and we had to get them loaded on a cart that was smaller than some of the pallets.
The straps needed to be cut to free them from the pallets (these are the moments knife nuts live for! ).

So, I pulled out my new Spyderco Military with fluted titanium handles, and cut all the straps.
It has S30V steel; according to a certain "expert" on this forum, it should have "micro-rolled" the edge, blah, blah, blah.
It did nothing to the edge, because oddly enough, steel is harder and more wear resistant than plastic...or cardboard (perhaps that's why most knife companies make blades out of steel...hmmm...).

I even used the suggested high-tech diagnostic tool of my thumbnail...heck, I used both of them.
There was no damage to be detected.

So, you can believe a non-existent magazine article and Youtube "experts", or you can believe the experience that comes from using your own knives.
I think I'll just keep using knives, even ones made out of (gack!) CPM steels.

 

[jbmonkey]

You better start providing some proof of your claims to these magazine articles. Currently, you just swing in, drop a deuce on the carpet and walk out the front door and never return after dropping said deuce.
For what it's worth, there are a great many materials that find tangential uses after they are developed. CPM's being one of them. Saying that they were developed for industrial use and not realizing that there are a great many things that CUT in an industrial setting is ludicrous.

Tick tock- better find those articles...

i cant stop laughing at your analogy. so true. well said, Sir. well said.

 

[Wowbagger]

I wonder if one of the "problems" with these higher end steels is that you can get a really big burr, that is actually pretty stable under light use?

There is a range of burs . . . . from, on one end of the spectrum, my M4 which is for all practical purposes a non existent bur. I mean I sharpen and I see a little glint but ignore it and just sharpen, going through a few grits and when I am done there is zero bur and the thing is hair whittling.

On the other end of the spectrum on say A2 or some of the other steels, especially the stainless variety, the bur that I get is this super thin (think gold leaf thin) thing that would barely hold up to anything more than a breath of air on it. Holding up to any actual cutting with it is unthinkable.

To eliminate those whispy thin, gold leaf like, burs . . . a couple light, short passes going against the edge (edge leading) followed by some edge trailing and the edge is ready to rock and roll. All on the stones. The right stones for the particular alloy; just depends on what I am sharpening.

I have zero use for any kind of strop.

One of the advantages of the Edge Pro or other guided system . . . precision of angle producing super minimal bur and "cross hairs" accuracy to eliminate it.

 

[Planterz]

Today, a fancy new machine that costs over $100000 showed up at the lab.
It was in 4 boxes, strapped to pallets, and we had to get them loaded on a cart that was smaller than some of the pallets.
The straps needed to be cut to free them from the pallets (these are the moments knife nuts live for! ).

So, I pulled out my new Spyderco Military with fluted titanium handles, and cut all the straps.
It has S30V steel; according to a certain "expert" on this forum, it should have "micro-rolled" the edge, blah, blah, blah.
It did nothing to the edge, because oddly enough, steel is harder and more wear resistant than plastic...or cardboard (perhaps that's why most knife companies make blades out of steel...hmmm...).

I even used the suggested high-tech diagnostic tool of my thumbnail...heck, I used both of them.
There was no damage to be detected.

So, you can believe a non-existent magazine article and Youtube "experts", or you can believe the experience that comes from using your own knives.
I think I'll just keep using knives, even ones made out of (gack!) CPM steels.

So, no "wobbly apex syndrome"?

 

[Danke42]

Today, a fancy new machine that costs over $100000 showed up at the lab.
It was in 4 boxes, strapped to pallets, and we had to get them loaded on a cart that was smaller than some of the pallets.
The straps needed to be cut to free them from the pallets (these are the moments knife nuts live for! ).

So, I pulled out my new Spyderco Military with fluted titanium handles, and cut all the straps.
It has S30V steel; according to a certain "expert" on this forum, it should have "micro-rolled" the edge, blah, blah, blah.
It did nothing to the edge, because oddly enough, steel is harder and more wear resistant than plastic...or cardboard (perhaps that's why most knife companies make blades out of steel...hmmm...).

I even used the suggested high-tech diagnostic tool of my thumbnail...heck, I used both of them.
There was no damage to be detected.

So, you can believe a non-existent magazine article and Youtube "experts", or you can believe the experience that comes from using your own knives.
I think I'll just keep using knives, even ones made out of (gack!) CPM steels.

Tell me they call it the "Stab Lab".

 

[halden.doerge]

So, no "wobbly apex syndrome"?

I think you mean "clogged apex."

 

[PoorUserName]

Wish i could afford S30V or S35VN, 100$+ knives are beyond me, Ordered my first 440C for $14, Most of my knives are Mora max price $35 for my Mora Force.

 

[midnight flyer]

Wish i could afford S30V or S35VN, 100$+ knives are beyond me, Ordered my first 440C for $14, Most of my knives are Mora max price $35 for my Mora Force.

This is a terrible thing to say, and I hope you won't think poorly of me. Before I was enlightened by this site by all the things wrong with the knives I bought, the steels they were made of, and the style of knives themselves, I lived in a happy ignorance using 440C and its relatives. Back 40 years ago I remember that I thought I had climbed the top of the mountain with my large Browning folder made from 440C. It worked all day long on a construction site, went on picnics, barbecues, and hunting/fishing trips as the only large folder I owned.

I learned how to hand sharpen correctly as a kid by looking at the instructions that came in my buddy's Buck knife. Every edge was a convex edge. You couldn't watch a movie in the mirror edge (because it wasn't there!) nor were there all the fancy contraptions sold now to make sure you put the same edge on your knife that the group tells you to use.

I have all manner of popular steels, super steels, etc. I find I pay less attention to the actual steel (unimpressed with the S110V on my Kershaw Shallot) and look at the function of the knife for the practical use I will put it to. And since most of the people I know are afraid to use their super high end knives (really...? Send them in for a "spa treatment"?) for much more than man jewelry I don't listen to any BS about the steels in my knives. At this point in my life I can buy and carry what I want.

So... what would be on deck for Fall? I have an old CASE that is in 1095 that I bought sometime around 1976 that I love. The shield is worn mostly smooth, two of the rivet heads have fallen off, and the scales that were a lovely ruby red when I purchased it are now dirty leather brown. The steel is so soft (55 Rockwell!) I used to touch it up on the job site with worn out 600gr wet and dry sand paper. Love that knife, it is an old trooper. We have quite a history. Yet even then, there were better steels on the market, but that was the best I could afford.

Buy a knife you like, a knife you will use, a knife of some quality. You will find that you prize that knife much more than a knife bought simply for the bragging rights you might have from some "upper end" steel.

Robert

 

[PoorUserName]

My next knife is a Kershaw Grinder, I love the shape of the blade even though it`s only 5cr14, It`s price in the US, lowest $16, Lowest in UK, $33

 

[gadgetgeek]

Wish i could afford S30V or S35VN, 100$+ knives are beyond me, Ordered my first 440C for $14, Most of my knives are Mora max price $35 for my Mora Force.

That's not a problem, Get yourself a Spyderco Native 5LW, 85$ new, and if you keep looking in the exchange, you should eventually find one. Great mid-size folder, really good value for what you pay.