The real skinny on S30V.

I think many people here may be underestimating S30V significantly. Some makers here on forums have said its wear resistance is superior to d2 and toughness rivalling, or even exceeding a2. All with very high corrosion resistance.
If early reports are true, this newly devised steel specifically for cutlery industry is not marginal but significant advance.
Remember, crucible refused to put this out until they felt they "did it right", they were supposed to have it out this time last year but would not put out publicly until they believed they had credible product. Idea for S30v is to produce "stainless" steel that compares favorably with alloy tool steels for performance.

Regards,

Martin
 
Marcangel,

Never claimed your masters was in anything but physics. No need to be testy, I think you got the gist of what I was trying to say, just wondering why you came at me like that? No need to take that condescending tone with us, everyone without the monies and/or desire to earn a masters degree is in no way beneath you. Thats what I got out of your tone bro, sorry for upsetting you.

JC
 
You kids try and behave while I'm out of town, if this keeps up somebody's feelings might get hurt. Don't make me seperate you two!:rolleyes:
 
My thoughts on S30V:

I am very thrilled about S30V. I got my first knife with an S30V blade about a month ago and it has performed better than any steel I have owned. A friend of mine is a well known knifemaker and he has started using S30V. I went to his shop a couple of weeks ago and he had a fixed blade in S30V and a fixed blade in A2 and he and I chopped the A2 steel blade in half with the S30V blade. Now, there was some damage to the edge of the S30V blade, but you should have seen what it did to the A2 blade. It was truly amazing. That S30V is some tough stuff. I have used mine alot and haven't had to touch it up yet. Just my .02cents worth.

I am glad that CRK is using it in their knives. Keep up the great work guys!
michael
 
This has gotten out of hand and I apologize. My personal feeling remains unchanged regarding S30V. I had the opportunity to do some "hacking" on dead grasses last night with both the small BG-42 sebbie. After 5 clumps of cutting, the sebbie was dulled and needed a touch up. So, I thought what the hell, out with the mnandi. 5 clumps later, it wouldn't shave anymore either. (The grass is really tough ornamental stuff). The mnandi was a bit easier to bring back with a 204 sharpmaker. The S30V was also a little easier to clean up. That was the extent of my side-by-side cutting trial. Time and other opinions will tell and I don't doubt that the debate will continue.
 
Lets put this to bed! I have a BA in English, so what! Edgeumacation and other stuff count for very little on this group, the proof is in the pudding.:)

On a more serious note, S30V is slightly tougher, slightly more stain resistant and slightly...:rolleyes:

Its a better material and it won't cost a penny more for us to buy a Sebi with S30V over a BG42 model.

How much better is BG-42 over ATS-34? I can't tell a big difference, heck hardly any at all. The point is even a small barely noticable improvement is a step forward and any step forward at no extra cost is nothing to moan about.

Its better, live with it.:)
 
Sorry for the previous long ramble about S30V development & history. I realize the real thread here is about performance, not history.
 
Ejt...

Yes, thank you very much for the history and other pertinent info. :)

Question: As far as knife blades are concerned, is there an optimal RC hardness performance-wise for S30V?

The reason I ask is that there are varying opinions on whether CRK should "up" their current 58RC hardness on their S30V blades to 60-61RC. Personally, 58RC's doing me right in every aspect of edge retention, "resharpenability," etc. Just wanted to know what your thoughts were on this specific matter...

Thanks again!

Professor.
 
Even if S30V is only a little better than BG-42, it's still better.
Plus, it doesn't cost us one extra penny; so what should we be complaining about?

Jeff
 
I can't really speak to the lower RC issue that prompted this thread. However, I've recently been working and playing with an S30V knife at 60 RC (not a CRK) and have been very impressed by the steel. This is already a long thread so I'll spare the details; but suffice to say that my S30V fixed has shown virtually no wear at tasks that have worn and "micro-chipped" my Sebenza, and even my Dozier D2 canoe knife. (All three have very similar, keen, convex edges.)

BG42 in the Sebenza is a great steel -- can't go wrong with it, really -- but S30V has significantly higher wear resistance, edge strength, and toughness, in my experience.

My belated .02 --

Glen
 
Thanks EJT, I recently purchased a S30V Large Sebenza. It feels good to have my decision validated after spending all that dough. I've just discovered "bladeforums" recently and am very impressed. Where else can you get the informed opinions of all these folks, not to mention someone connected with the Crucible Factory.
I've carried the knife everyday for the past month and have cut melons, grapefruits, boxes, opened letters and cut a two-by-four in half (because it was there). It's been touched up twice with an Arkansas stone. It holds an edge better than any knife I own with the possible exception of a forged carbon steel Randall that once gutted a large Mulie and a Pronghorn and still shaved my arm.
I'm in the Army Reserves and will give you all the benefit of a more rigorous shakedown after a few weeks in the field this summer.
That is, if my unit doesn't get the nod for a more extensive opportunity to test our "metal" first.
 
From what i have heard from Rob, Kit and Jerry, 60/61 is the hardness for smaller blades, and i guess 58/59 for Large stuff. I have some kitchen knives at 60/61 from Paul Bos, and these things cut wickedly. Still had a bitey edge after cutting in the kitchen for 90 minutes. Much better than me D2 stuff :) 60/61 for smaller blades and kitchen knives, maybe high 50's for large camp knives and swords and stuff. the 58/59 on smaller blades is sacrificing the properties of S30V, IMHO.
 
Originally posted by Taz
the 58/59 on smaller blades is sacrificing the properties of S30V, IMHO.
Click to expand...

I find it rather unfortunate that Chris is staying so quiet on this. If he prefers 58/59, I'd love to hear why he chose this. I'm not doubting that his ability to correctly decide hardness is vastly superior to mine, it's just that as a user of his knives, I'm interested. I don't like hearing "that's what I picked because it's better" and then silence. Part of the fun of this hobby is understanding the decisions made.
 
Because hardness is often the only property that users of hardened steel can measure, it is often used as the only measuring or comparing criteria. Unfortunately, it is only one of many properties to be considered for performance. Even more unfortunately, because many people are only aware of this property, a common perception is that "harder is better". We design our steels to be used over a range of hardnesses, depending on the combination of properties desired. I'll offer some further comments shortly (unfortunately gotta work too!), but for now, let me just say that for a hand tool like a knife, we think using a steel a little lower than its maximum possible hardness is nearly always a good idea. This would apply to nearly all the fancy high alloy heat treated steels commonly used for knives. Film at 11 -
 
So what's the maximum working hardness for S30V?
What's optimal?

I'm thinking of getting a large Seb, in S30V this time, for a beater, and toughness w/corrosion resistance is the big plus. I'll take ease of resharpening/repairing damage over super edgeholding in this instance, but am planning to order a custom (maybe two-if I become convinced it will hold up to heavy chopping better than A2, and at an Rc that doesn't sacrifice too much strength, and wear resistance) in this steel soon, too, but am unsure what Rc to have them done at.
 
(Edited for brevity)

A simple recommendation is if you are not sure what jobs you will ask of the knife (cutting, prying, picking, chopping, you get the picture) then we recommend a little more conservative hardness, like HRC 58+/-. If you are sure you only need edge retention (i.e. you know you will only be slicing or carving) then higher hardness ,may be better, maybe HRC 60+/-. The "best" hardness depends on your expectations for the blade. This would apply to most steels and most kinds of tools. So we think unless you know you are in the latter category, HRC 58 is an all-around choice. And in fact, if you really want maximum wear and are willing to give up toughness, we do still offer the S60V & S90V.;)
 
It isn't because too much wear resistance is lost that people have commented about the lower hardness of S30V, it is well known that wear resistance is dominated by carbide content and dispersion, not the hardness of the steel itself. However, wear resistance does not equate to edge holding in a knife when used by people on ordinary materials.

On a lot of materials, the edge will roll long before it has significantly worn. In those cases strength, and therefore hardness, becomes critical and you can see significant drops in edge holding even with just a one point loss in RC. This is on "soft" materials like cardboard, ropes etc., it is also not using the knife like an "axe", we are just talking about normal slicing and whittling.

For some data, see example edge holding comparisons done by Wayne Goddard, or Phil Wilson, to name a couple of knifemakers that are familiar here, or Alvin Johnson, Mike Swaim etc., I have also seen the same thing. A drop from 60-62, where many custom knifemakers are putting the steel, to ~58 is a pretty big change indeed.

Lots more information can be read on the forums on a parallel issue which is Spyderco's dropping of 440V (S60V) to ~55 RC. Despite its much greater wear resistance, its edge retention is lower than many of the lower grade steels because they are ~3-5 RC points harder.

The other obvious question would be why did Reeve drop the RC on S30V when it is supposed to be inherently much tougher than BG-42. Even if the S30V was left at the same RC, it should have an improved toughess and this was never a frequent complaint I read about the Sebenzas. The obvious conclusion is that the BG-42 Sebenzas were far too brittle, so much so that not only was it necessary to use an inherently tougher steel, but the RC had to be dropped as well.

-Cliff
 
Well this has certainly been informative. Would you then reccomend different heat treat for different blade types? I doubt anyone would be "chopping" with a mnandi or an umfaan (but you never really know).
Since these smaller "gent's knifes" are used as slicers, wouldn't a higher Rc hardeness benefit the user in terms of edge retention? I'm intentionally leaving the small sebbie out of this because YOU can use that as a "chopper".
 
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