The real skinny on S30V.

Originally posted by Professor
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We've already heard testimonials from S30V Seb users who say that edge retention is better than their older BG42 Sebs, and not a word yet to the contrary. Hmmm...

How about this professor - at 61 HRC it'd be even better than at 58 HRC ;) For the folding knife at least. Is it that bad or strange to ask for the improvement(s)? As everyone agree S30V is tougher than BG-42, I would assume that even at 61 HRC it's be still tougher than BG-42.
Ok, it's better, but it could've been even better...
 
Gator,

That is what I have gotten out of the whole thing as well. It seems to me they decided since it would be cheaper to work with OR FOR OTHER REASONS to heat treat it to a lower hardness than it OPTIMALLY performs at (at least as a folding knife steel) in terms of edge-holding and how fine an edge is obtainable to begin with. Am I thinking the right way?

JC
 
Great thread, lots of good stuff! I am a maker and user of S30-V. In my opinion it is the best balanced Stainless on the market. It is a marked improvement over BG-42 in my opinion and my limited testing. About the lower rockwell hardness, it is much easier to get a good finish on this steel at 58 Rc than at 61Rc, at least with the equipment and abrasives I use in my shop. I am running very thin edges (.010) on small knives at Rc61 and am not getting any chipping in normal everyday cutting. Bigger knives I am running S30-V at Rc 58 and getting great field performance. Destrutive testing shows S30-V to be quite a bit tougher than D-2, BG-42, 154. It holds an edge at least as good as S-60V at Rc 59 and is much tougher than S60 or S-90V. S90-V as has been mentioned is the cats butt for edgeholding though! I havent done all the testing I want to yet but at this point I wont be buying any more BG-42, ATS, or BG-42! I like it, I like it a lot! :)
 
Jameson,

That's pretty much what I think too. CRK stated that HRC choice was not related to grinding, I haven't seen that statement, but there's a message in this thread saying that. I don't want to question what CRK
says, it wasn't related, ok fine, they know better.

However, all the makers on this forums agree that optimum hrc for smaller blades would be above 60HRC. ejt said basically the same:
if you are not sure what jobs you will ask of the knife (cutting, prying, picking, chopping, you get the picture) then we recommend HRC 58+/-. If you are sure you only need edge retention (i.e. you know you will only be slicing or carving) then HRC 60+/- is OK. So we think unless you know you are in the latter category, HRC 58 is the best choice..

Not sure why it is surprising or upseting to anyone that lots of folks wanted optimum hardness in a folder like Sebenza. And it has nothing to do with bashing.

Even if majority of Sebenza users start reporting successfully chopping down the trees and prying open jammed car doors with their large and small S30V Sebenzas I'd still think that higher hardness would've been better, slightly ;)
 
Hey Rob, we may have disagreed a fair bit in the past, but for what its worth if you think its that good, thats good enough for me.:)
 
The Sebenza was designed as a working knife. If holding back the hardness a little improves the overall performance of it, then it's fine with me. Extreme edge holding isn't everything.

Paul
 
My S30V Sebenza has a 58-59RC rating. Anyone know why two numbers?
Does that work out to 58 and a half? At any rate the difference between that and 61RC is so slight I doubt if any but a very small percentage of the "experts" who weighed in on this thread could tell the difference. If they could they're wasting thier time messing around on the internet. If they know more than Chris Reeve they ought to be making knives. The world will beat a path to thier door! Meanwhile, the rest of us dummies will have to be content with our Sebenzas.;)
Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying all this, and learning a thing or two as well. Everyone's entitled to thier opinion. I just don't think it's worth getting your undies in a bunch over a couple of Rockwell hardness points. There I said it! I feel better now.
 
Originally posted by NRAlLIFER
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At any rate the difference between that and 61RC is so slight I doubt if any but a very small percentage of the "experts" who weighed in on this thread could tell the difference.
Not sure what is the exact number, I guess depends on the steel.
As I remember there was a post where someone mentioned 20% per HRC. Though it was about pure wear resistance, not the edge holding.
I couldn't find that post though. May be someone else remembers the same thing?
 
I'm not a steel expert and I'm not a hard user of small folders. I don't see the sense (or relevance) of trying to cut down a tree with small folder when a chainsaw would do a much quicker job. So here's the question to those of you that work with steel: If you had 2 small folders (blade size about 3"), one was S30V at 60-61 and the other was S30V at 58-59 and you didn't know which one was which, do you think that you could tell the difference? Or maybe how much wood could a woodchuck chuck......:confused: :eek: :rolleyes: :)
 
Paul, I agree that hardness isnt everything.

I want to add that CRK has much more collective knowledge than I do. If they are running their blades at 58 Rc there is a darn good reason for it. After all Chris was very involved in the design of this steel, and I am pleased to a benifit from his work with Crucible.

I think at CRK's 58/59 Rockwell, S30-V is a better steel than 154 or BG-42 at 60-61. That is solely my opinion. Bottom line is the consumer wins whether it be 61 or 59Rc.

NRALIFER, it is common to see the rockwell numbers like that. I do multiple hardness tests on every blade and it is common to see one test read 58, and the next 59.

Scott Dog, It would take a long time cutting the same materials, but yes, you could figure it out.

:)
 
Posted by Rob:
"I think at CRK's 58/59 Rockwell, S30-V is a better steel than 154 or BG-42 at 60-61."

Yes but would the S30V be EVEN BETTER at 60-61Rc as compared to 58-59Rc for a small blade where the extra toughness gained is, in my opinion, unnecessary? The way I see it we are gaining something that is nice to have (more toughness) yet might not need, at the expense of edge holding from the extra hardness. Let us keep in mind BG42 was fine at 60-61Rc and S30V is even tougher than BG42 at the same hardness.

"If they are running their blades at 58 Rc there is a darn good reason for it."

The question that we would all like to see answered.

Didn't mean to pick on you or anything Rob, I was just using what you said to make some points. :)
 
If additional toughness is what Chris wanted, it makes me wonder if he is getting very many chipped or broken BG-42 blades back under warranty. Many people do use their knives for inappropriate things and maybe that is the reason.
Frankly, unless the S30V at 58/59 needs to be re-sharpened constantly, I don't think I mind at all, a blade that is super tough. The people who have S30V blades don't seem to be complaining about a lack of edge holding.
 
Originally posted by ejt
Sorry for the previous long ramble about S30V development & history. I realize the real thread here is about performance, not history.
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Dang, that was a great post - you didn't have to edit out the history, as it still ultimately pertained to the topic. Came back to re-read and it was gone :(
 
Originally posted by marcangel
When I ask a maker... what he thinks of it, and the reply is, "It's a pain in the ASS to work with!" I respect that. The whole point I'm trying to make is, I don't think that the dividend is there. We're talking about knife blades folks, not a freaking lunar module! D2 is a great steel, for a Tool and Die Maker, not Sam the Butcher! Try and sharpen D2 to a razor edge (by hand) after it's been rounded. When you're finished, post a reply. I should be collecting Social Security by then.
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I don't know what YOU sharpen with, but I have NO problem with sharpening Paul Bos treated D2 (in several applications), using bench stones and a Spyderco sharpmaker. That included reprofiling the edge on one of them. D2 is no problem to sharpen.
 
My experience with CRK and after meeting and talking to Chris at a couple of knife shows, I believe that when Chris makes a decision on something like this, he does so with a lot of thought. I'm no expert at making knives or the properties of different steels. I trust Chris to make the right decision, I think that too much is being made of the rockwell hardeness. I mean your only talking about 2 points. Trust Chris, he knows what he is doing. He's betting his livelyhood on this. Chris and the people at Crucible think that the steel performs better at 57-58 and I think that they are probabably right. But that's just my $.02.
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Therein lies the rub (in bold). Chris' concern is primarily his livlihood (yep, bet on it; same as every other craftsman). If it can be done another way (different steel at lower Rc) as well but with less expense, then it is a better business decision to do it the new way. I have heard from several makers that BG42 (in its earlier incarnations, at least) suffered from more impurities, and more scrapped blades, during the creation of the knife. That means loss of money. If the purity of BG42 has gone up, then I bet the cost / pound has increased as well. If one can switch to S30V (at a comparable price) and grind it as easily at a lower Rc (but not at a higher, optimum, Rc), with less scrap, then the profit margin is better. So, grind it at the lower Rc, maintain the status quo on blade performance, increase your profit margin, and everybody's happy. Well.... except the ones that know that S30V could be a better blade at a higher Rc.

Now, I guess all of that sounds like I'm bashing CRK, but I don't mean it to sound that way. The man (and company) make great knives. And I hope to someday afford a Sebenza. And am looking at a One-Piece purchase, too. But "just trusting" doesn't work for me.

I've already got one blade in S30V, and it is at Rc 59. But it is a big, 7 inch blade (8, if you include the hilt/choil area). And it will be used for chopping and other pretty heavy duty use. Rc 59 makes sense for it. Rc 58 for a small tactical folder is, to me, suspect. It hints to another reason for going to S30V but going softer.

Orrrr.... I suppose I can expect my big blade to shatter the first time I chop hard wood with it.
 
Thats what we have all been waiting for. Email them this page via the link on the bottom.
JC
 
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