The reality of wilderness animal attack and carrying firearms

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dan-g said:
...HERES THE QUESTION TO OTHER FORUMITES. Am I a weine for clinging illogicaly to my firearm. Before anwsering please state if you own guns or not,
since this will heavly influnce your replie.
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I sure wouldn't want to rely on my knife/walking stick if a hungry mountain lion was attacking me, or especially my kids. A pack of feral dogs/coyotes/wolves would also need more medicine than a stout stick. This is why I carry a Glock 10mm for this purpose. I have a knife(knives) with me as well, and pretty much always a walking stick, but I have no need to go toe to toe with any attacker -- that's why we have tools!

From the credible sources I've been able to find, shooting a large bear is probably not going to be your best means of self-defense. Bears don't die quickly, and being calm enough to make an accurate hit on a bruin charging at high speed is just not something I want to count on. Rather, the high scoville bear spray available seems to do a pretty good job of deterring bears. If in big bear country, I'd back the spray up with a .500 S&W or a .45/70 with Garrett hard cast bullets.

My wife didn't care for my guns when we first got together, but as the years have gone by she's gotten to appreciate them much more. I still can't get her to go shoot, but she's glad that I am armed when we hike/camp/etc.
 
I live in Washington and own a cabin in the forest. I spend alot of time in the woods. Probably 15-20 week ends a year. Wehave lots of cougars, cyotes, bears, dogs, and people. My good friend on the swat team tells me the dogs are the most common danger. I never go un-armed (3" .357 covers everything but bears). Bears are not very likely. The few bear attacks I am aware of ended with a dead bear from a .357. I lived in Alaska for 4 years. For big bears (yes I met a few) NO handgun will work. According to the Alakaskan game department no one who ever came in contact with a grizzly (i.e. made physical contact) ever preserved their life with a handgun of any caliber. Yes hunters have taken bears with hand-cannons. The recommended minimum was 12 guage or .338 mag. 45-70 in a marlin guide gun with garret or other max loads also work adequately.
I also own (and carry) bear spray (not human peper spray).
Final point, in 50 years in the woods in Washington I have NEVER seen a bear or cougar. We have been involved (with scouts) with criminals, dogs, and crazy people. In 30 years as a scout master I have had several dads (all LEO) who would not let their sons go on the hike/campout if noone was carrying.
 
Ron Athay said:
I lived in Alaska for 4 years. For big bears (yes I met a few) NO handgun will work.
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I feel quite comfortable with my 454 Casull. It's taken plenty of bear.


Ron Athay said:
According to the Alakaskan game department no one who ever came in contact with a grizzly (i.e. made physical contact) ever preserved their life with a handgun of any caliber.
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That was ever reported to them. ;) :D
 
Magnussen said:
Alvaro...

Spray doesn't work with jaguars, tapirs and pecaris?.... I would think that if it breathes has eyes and any sense of self preservation (which excludes crocs and rutting moose) that spray would be effective.

Rick
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I have heard it doesn't work on cougars either.

Just a quick observation on the statistics on gun verse spray, I would take it with a grain of salt.
As a hunter I know many hunters that carry a bear tag just in case, even if not hunting bear. I know of a couple of instances (1 first hand) where a bear that was aggressive was simply shot then tagged and never reported.
I also no of circumstances where a gun was used to chase off a bear and it wasn't reported.

However unless I am hunting or plan on plinking I rarely pack a gun while hiking, camping etc. I live in bear and cougar territory,and have been bluffed charged by a grizzly once.
I think it is a personal choice, however I also believe if you carry a gun you must be proficient with it or you shouldn't be carrying it.
At least bear spray is more forgiving then the un-trained
 
Ron Athay said:
Final point, in 50 years in the woods in Washington I have NEVER seen a bear or cougar. We have been involved (with scouts) with criminals, dogs, and crazy people. In 30 years as a scout master I have had several dads (all LEO) who would not let their sons go on the hike/campout if noone was carrying.
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If this comes off like I am calling you a liar, forgive me because that is not my intent.
I live in BC (south cast) and I have seen dozens (easily over a hundred) bears throughout the province.
We have had a bear population explosion since the 1980's, I am just curious where in Washington you live, because I was under the impression that Washington was in a similar situation to BC

I've only seen the a$$ end of a moving cougar twice in my life, and was stalked by a lynx once
 
I have to admit, not spotting a bear in 50 years does seem odd. But then again I literaly have black bear in my backyard so my veiwpoint might be jaded. It was under my impresion that norcal,oregon, washington, and all of BC, had a very bear friendly enviroment. I have never seen a mountain lion though but I have ran into a few lynx. (Most of my info about Canada comes from my Grandma, who lives in BC. At some point I might even move to Canada. After 6 more years of school it would be really nice to move the family to someplace like BC. Who knows what America will be like in 6 years, but I do know the construction field has crashed and my two contractors licences are barly worth the paper there printed on).

ON a seprate note, there apears to be quite a S&w340pd following. makes sense, 13oz of .357 can really making packing it on a hike easy. Compared to a 46oz 686 or a 27oz glock 10mm. I shoot 180grn hot bear rounds through my 22oz snubie and some 158grn gold dots pretty regularly. So, im not worried about the bloody hand from the 13oz but im 6'3 240ibs and work on houses all day long. (I cant prove it but logicaly using a hammer and hand tools all day long really seems to increase your recoil resistance, it certainly beefs up your forearms).
 
Note to self,

Lion hunt tomorrow... leave bear spray at home.

[youtube]N5DnHcu-u7k&feature=related[/youtube]
 
I don't currently own any firearms. I used to own ALOT of firearms.
I used to carry a .44 in the woods. I think you are just fine carrying a .357 in the woods and if I were you I wouldn't sweat the "feeling" of being odd amongst your survivalist freinds. The FACT of the matter is that if you were faced with a survival situation, your .357 would be a better food getter than their knives and such. Albeit a noisier one. But Heck, if you manage to bag a deer you guys eat well for awhile rather than making do with a squirrel or two here and there.

I think you're just fine carrying your piece in the woods with you.
 
For those who do not believe, added clarification. My cabin is just south of Mt. St. Helens near the west side of Gifford Pinchot. Most of my hiking is in groups. I have been very close to bears twice (a few feet?) without seeing them. I did smell one. Ugh. The last one was finally confirmed by the state patrol to be a rouge grisley down from "up north". Some loggers dispatched it in quite. Our cabin group has 256 cabins. We have had three cougar atacks (two dead stuffed cougars) and many bears have been taken. However, I have not seen a bear or cougar in the wilds of Washington. My good or bad luck? I hunt deer and elk every year and always buy a bear and cougar license. I have seen brown bears and black bears in the wild on the Kenai Pennisula. The brown bear I saw was known to the park rangers (their estimate at 1600 lbs). Sorry, for that bear I stand by my statement of NO handgun would do. Even a big rifle would seem in-adequate.
 
I live in Eastern Idaho, just southwest of Yellowstone. I used to live just east of Glacier National Park and the Bob Marshall wilderness complex. I spend a lot of time in grizzly bear country and favor bear spray as the primary protection against bears. I also carry a pistol or revolver, primarily for dealing with human threats. Today I carried the .44 while out fishing with my five year old.

The idea that the "outdoor pros" generally carry handguns rather than bear spray is ludicrous. There are all sorts of outdoor professionals around here and they overwhelmingly carry bear spray in the backcountry. Hunting guides probably favor handguns but they are in the minority.
 
Hmmm.

I'll have to remember that Alaskan brown bear have built up an immunity to bullets fired from the 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh, and the 460 and 500 S&W. They just won't work as proclaimed by the Alaskan Fish and Game.

Things really are TOUGHER IN ALASKA.
 
I'll respond to the OP 1st and add notes afterward.

While i own/have owned firearms most of my life, i've become an advocate for using a hard-core, bear-grade pepper-spray in my wildlife defense armory. While i've never used pepper-spray against a wild predator (i have used human-grade pepper-spray against large, angry dogs very successfully), i've watched more than a few videos and read fairly bias-free accounts where bear-grade pepper-spray was employed (successfully and not-so-successfully). I am now more convinced than ever before that it is absolutely essential to have a hard-core, bear-grade pepper-spray cannister in my kit.

Something that must be a guiding fact is that an antagonist can cover short distances very quickly - often times faster than most defenders can respond depending on the distance. Also, the attacker has the advantage of choosing when the attack is on - sometimes this is instantly other times when we're looking the other way. While a handgun can be deployed very quickly in the appropriate carry-mode and in the direction of the assault, firing it accurately is another story altogether. Unfortunately, most handgun users do not regularly/adequately train for rapid, accurate deployment of their handgun and even more so altering the direction of fire from that deployment.

Carry-configuration of a firearm is of extreme importance b/c in wildlife vs human confrontation the advantage is usually initially on the side of the attacker (as in almost all situations). We soft-skinned humans can get pretty tore up very quickly and the attacker (linx/cougar/feral canine pack/bear) is usually more OK with some physical pain enroute to their dinner enabling them to continue the fight to our great injury.

A firearm (unless already in-hand) simply will not be sufficiently accurate nor speedily deployable nor able to deliver adequate immediate stopping force in a quick attack to make it my one and only defense tool. To believe otherwise is a gross over-estimation of ability (of the user or the weapon) or under-estimation of the assailant. I've known LEOs from coast-to-coast (LA County to DC Metro) and a couple of them are truly remarkable marksman who've been in fire-fights. By their own admission, their 'on-street' accuracy was much, much lower even than in stress-induced, heated time-sensitive training/competitions. These are folks who use their side-arm every week and have done so for years. On-street accuracy was much lower than situational. That said, they're all alive and some have been involved in shooting armed assailants.

However, a pissed-off bear or cougar is likely to be on us before we get 2 or 3 rounds in their rear-end. Thats where an overwhelming, all-encompassing pain platform like a hard-core bear-spray can eliminate their ability to continue the attack. It removes their ability to see straight, to breathe and it disrupts their equilibrium. While theres a high risk the user will also get a dose, at least we KNOW what the source is so we can continue spraying - continue the fight.

It's my opinion to construct a multi-tiered defense against assailants. The first tier is avoidance/mitigation of agression. The 2nd is hard-core, bear-grade spray in an 'easy, immediately available' carry-configuration. The 3rd tier - i don't know if i'd be able to employ it given the actual duration/magnitude of the attack - would be a handgun and/or big-ass knife. To me, relying on just one line of defense is lunacy.

Honestly, if i were hiking in bear country i'd be lugging one of these babies!!!

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895SBL.asp

OK maybe not, but the bear-grade spray with my Trailmaster as backup is a minimum!!!
 
I carry bear spray when I go out into the backwoods. I don't worry an overly large amount about "two legged predators", and bear spray combined with my Ontario SP-6 fighter is more than enough to take care of them, despite never having a problem more than a teenager angry because he was busy with his girl when I walked by :)


Where it really comes in handy is a pack of angry dogs. You would have to be a godly pistol shot to drop a pack of six dogs as they come running at you before they reach you, especially if they cam from cover. Sure they may reconsider after you miss the first few shots, but a lovely cloud of bear spray is a handy persuader.

I shoot merely for the fun of it, and have no real training in tactical shooting. I don't simply have the skill or training to draw from a concealed holster and fire accurately and quickly in a stressful situation.

Packing an 8lb (unloaded) 45-70 is colossal overkill unless I plan of hunting a grizzly bear. If I needed to pick a gun to survive with, I would take my 10/22, or a Henry Survival rifle. I would replace monster rifles like that Marlin 45-70 with bear spray.
 
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I was more joking about the .45-70 - sorta ;)

The bear-spray and TM would be the more likely carry with a glock 29 10mm full-power never far away ;)
 
I would carry my Glock 21 -or- S&W Model 66 plus bear spray.
For around the Tennessee region i tote my S&W Model 642 airweight with an extra five rounds on a speed strip for protection against people.I'm not worried about the bears here.

Sad thought here.
If there were any dangerous game in England. Those poor suckers would have to resort to a garden shovel or bar stool.LOL
 
Hey major007,

I completly agree with you. You seem to have a very acurate concept of shooting during stress. I have multiple stories from friends invoving calls that escilated to shooting. One of my friends had trained himself to thripple tap then reholster his duity wepon. On a call that turned bad him and my another budy of mine were forced to fire. He proceded to empty his wepon by firing three rounds then rehostering and imidiatly pulling his gun and firing three more. he had no idea this is what he was doing and wouldent have know if ken wouldent have told him.

Another one of my friends was on a call and had to fire what he thought was a few rounds, he later found out he had emptied his entire 22rnd monster mag and hit nothing.

I personaly havent had to shoot at anyone but have been shot at and I certainly think my abilitie to return fire would be greatly diminished, espesialy after bieng shot in the leg.

Most people are uterly over confident in there shooting abilitie. when I was a reseve officer we used to train at the sheriffs department training center. the stories that keep circulating seem to always have a similar vien, "I wish I could have shot that guy but I couldent get to my weopon". These are offecer who visit the range very regularly.

Now if you think about an animal that can close much faster than a human, you really need to change the magic gun thesis, into a more realistic whats in my hand and how can I use it to back off the attack to get to my weopon.

I still think the best deterent is awarnes of your surondings. Also when im going on a few day hike I get into this very quite place where, all my sense's are hightened and its the main reason I love hiking is getting my head cleared. In this mental state ive walked past deer,mosse,elk,racoon,bear, and lynx. Each animal has given me the same response, an acnowliging look and the we have both parted ways. This is a untagible phenominon and I have been hiking with men who cant shut up and relax and they have no idea what im takling about with this state. Others people im assuming like magnus have gotten in this grove with me and we become a party, moving through the woods. This mental state reminds me of a very primitive mindset, that is possibly instictual to humans very relaxed and watchfull.

If you want to make fun of my "native mindset", please dont. It the main reason I love the outdoors. i get to reconect with my natural state. This reset helps, flush out the horible noise crashing through my head. You can only take so much mind numbing crap, like lady ga ga, or tv, or whatever... before you need a mental enima.
 
One of my favorite quotes, "You dont need a gun very often, but when you do, you need it REAL bad". Of course, all the other advise is valid. A gun doesn't do any good if you don't have time/reason to draw it.
 
Another aspect, growing up in Wisconsin where just about any kind of gun toting is illegal... animals suffering from rabies, chronic wasting disease, etc become blood crazy and violent. I don't know about you, but I don't care if it's a freaking squirrel-if it's foaming at the mouth I don't want to even take the chance. I'm not sure even bear spray would dissuade a rabid animal from attacking you.
 
Ron Athay said:
The recommended minimum was 12 guage or .338 mag. 45-70 in a marlin guide gun with garret or other max loads also work adequately.
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What's the difference in a 420 gr. bullet fired out of a 45-70 Marlin rifle at 1600 f.p.s. and a 440 gr. bullet at 1600 f.p.s. from a .500 S&W with an 8" barrel?
 
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