The Rule of Fours

[Gadgetaholic]

You can't fix stupid, unfortunately.

There IS a cure - it comes with a free Darwin award.

IMO, the first principal need after water is shelter. It gets cool at night almost everywhere and you need, hell, you must have, some sort of cover above you to retard body heat radiation into the night sky, protect you from rain and snow, etc.

I think radiating heat isn't so much of an issue - you will lose heat MUCH faster to convection. Clearly in cold weather shelter from wind/rain/snow will have a high priority if you want your body to work well enough to get yourself out of the bad situation.


The only time I have been in a true life or death survival situation I was in a car upside down in a creek that was filling with water. My priorities were obvious - I had more than enough water (much much more) and shelter or food wasn't an immediate concern. I was only worried about air to breath and I didn't want to test how many minutes I could hold my breath. I knew I needed to get out of the car and at least have my mouth/nose out of the water and the faster the better. I couldn't open the car door enough to easily get out, but I got far enough out to breath, at that point the risk of death receded and I re-evaluated my priorities. I was not going to be hyperthermic for a while (many minutes at least) so I relaxed a bit and decided that my immediate concern was to finish squeezing out of a barely open car door - I managed to free myself and walked off to find assistance.

Before I had my head and shoulders above water when I was submerged and holding my breath I was terrified and if I had panicked at that point I would not be here typing this today - but I had a determination to live and I acted as sensibly and logically as I could. I would suggest that in any survival situation you should always evaluate the possible courses of action and make the best decisions you are able to - THAT is what will save your life!

 

[SouthernCross]

....I think radiating heat isn't so much of an issue - you will lose heat MUCH faster to convection.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that conduction is the most effective form of heat transfer



Kind regards
Mick

 

[Gadgetaholic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that conduction is the most effective form of heat transfer

Funny, but I was under the impression that convection was. Take wind chill for example - perfect example of convection reducing your temperature faster than anything.

But regardless - you want to avoid heat loss in cold weather because numb hands or numb brain messes up your survival skills and that could cause a flow on effect which puts you in more jeopardy.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

This thread is proof as to why so many people are scared to even talk to "wilderness people".
Nobody can agree on anything.

Hell, from what I seen, some of us can't even discuss it calmly...let alone agree on things...

I started coming here because I started back in college and couldn't get out as much, or teach as much as I wanted (haven't taught a class in almost a year. taught only one last year. took down my website.). I enjoy looking at the pictures and reading the posts of you guys who ARE able to get out there and do it.

I think maybe it's time for a break from these forums. Maybe hit the books a little bit harder, or something else.

Watching people argue over something as meaningless as a number, to a point of insulting each other on a routine basis has gotten old.

Keep up the good pictures and write-ups, gents.

 

[koyote]

I seem to remember Tom Brown saying once that whenever he got in trouble in the wild it was due to his not adhering to his priorities. I think his in order of precedence is: Shelter, water, food, and fire.
Also, wasnt there a general rule for loss of blood? Does it fit this rule or not?

I think (I should go look it up, but I'm being lazy) that the order for Tom Brown is:

Attitude
Shelter
Water
Fire
Food.

Which is sort of where I was hinting at with the desert survival recap- Shelter in the desert- as an example case- can result in much more water conservation (conserving what's already in your body) than just slamming another gallon of water and wandering around in the full sun.

 

[smersh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that conduction is the most effective form of heat transfer



Kind regards
Mick

Funny, but I was under the impression that convection was. Take wind chill for example - perfect example of convection reducing your temperature faster than anything.

But regardless - you want to avoid heat loss in cold weather because numb hands or numb brain messes up your survival skills and that could cause a flow on effect which puts you in more jeopardy.

I think you're both right -- and there's really not much disagreement here. If you get damp and/or sweaty in the cold, wind chill convection is a killer; if you take a plunge in an icy lake, conduction to the frigid water will kill you even quicker. Much of the time, multiple cooling forces are in play.

This is an interesting site in this regard:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/thermo/coobod.html#c1

 

[DOC-CANADA]

I think radiating heat isn't so much of an issue - you will lose heat MUCH faster to convection. Clearly in cold weather shelter from wind/rain/snow will have a high priority if you want your body to work well enough to get yourself out of the bad situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that conduction is the most effective form of heat transfer

Kind regards
Mick

Funny, but I was under the impression that convection was. Take wind chill for example - perfect example of convection reducing your temperature faster than anything.

But regardless - you want to avoid heat loss in cold weather because numb hands or numb brain messes up your survival skills and that could cause a flow on effect which puts you in more jeopardy.

This is a good example of how you can disagree with somebody, WITHOUT INSULTING THEM!!!!

A discussion forum would be a pretty boring place without some disagreement. The problem lies in insulting people that you disagree with.

It would behoove us all, to look upon each other as brothers-in-spirit and conduct ourselves accordingly.

Doc (stepping down off his soap box).

 

[mymindisamob]

This is a good example of how you can disagree with somebody, WITHOUT INSULTING THEM!!!!

A discussion forum would be a pretty boring place without some disagreement. The problem lies in insulting people that you disagree with.

It would behoove us all, to look upon each other as brothers-in-spirit and conduct ourselves accordingly.

Doc (stepping down off his soap box).

:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[dawsonbob]

This is a good example of how you can disagree with somebody, WITHOUT INSULTING THEM!!!!

A discussion forum would be a pretty boring place without some disagreement. The problem lies in insulting people that you disagree with.

It would behoove us all, to look upon each other as brothers-in-spirit and conduct ourselves accordingly.

Doc (stepping down off his soap box).

You so infrequently step up on your soapbox, yet you're one of the few people who generally make sense standing atop one. I never mind when you climb up, Doc. Not at all.

 

[PayetteRucker]

Before any contributing members consider jumping ship for greener grass, please consider using the ignore button on those whom you find unpalatable. It is a breeze of fresh mountain air.

If you have never done so, give it a shot. First remember the spelling of the offender. Second scroll to the top of the screen and hit the "User CP" button (put mouse arrow on words "user cp" then hit your left mouse button. Your user control panel will come up. On the left side of the screen is several options. Half way down is an "edit ignore list" button. Left mouse button click that. Next type in the PayetteRucker's name and hit enter, as an example. Then enjoy the silence.

You can also report bad posts. There is an exclamation point next to the post number. Hit that and type reason for the report (example attacking another member, foul language, etc.).

lol, do I really come across as that huge of an asshole? I'm definately opinionated but I don't think I've ever made a personal attack on anyone here. I think where 99% of the issues come in are what's lost in translation via communicating primarily via internet... alot of stuff gets lost in translation. I don't care how long you've known a person online, you simply can't claim to know them until you spend time with them face to face.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I think where 99% of the issues come in are what's lost in translation via communicating primarily via internet... alot of stuff gets lost in translation. I don't care how long you've known a person online, you simply can't claim to know them until you spend time with them face to face.

But most of us aren't going to get to know each other face to face.
One of my best friends online lives on the other side of the planet.

Be extra careful not to alienate: re-read what you write before you post. It's pitiful when we talk about the same kinds of experience but manage to make others feel their experience doesn't count. Make it clear -- no walls of black text -- paragraph paragraph paragraph!

We just trashed this thread because so many people posted without understanding what the original poster clearly said, and efforts to explain it got ignored too. Instead the tone turned to "I disagree so you don't know what you're talking about."

* ****** **** ****** *

Personally, my experience online suggests that the people who don't get what you're saying, but feel the right to be aggressive about, are never going to be a useful part of your conversations. "The less they know, the louder they know it."

Put them on ignore! Page down past what they write! Go on quickly to the good guys and let the conversation be with them.

 

[Iboschi]

But most of us aren't going to get to know each other face to face.
One of my best friends online lives on the other side of the planet.

Be extra careful not to alienate: re-read what you write before you post. It's pitiful when we talk about the same kinds of experience but manage to make others feel their experience doesn't count. Make it clear -- no walls of black text -- paragraph paragraph paragraph!

We just trashed this thread because so many people posted without understanding what the original poster clearly said, and efforts to explain it got ignored too. Instead the tone turned to "I disagree so you don't know what you're talking about."

* ****** **** ****** *

Personally, my experience online suggests that the people who don't get what you're saying, but feel the right to be aggressive about, are never going to be a useful part of your conversations. "The less they know, the louder they know it."

Put them on ignore! Page down past what they write! Go on quickly to the good guys and let the conversation be with them.

We seem to be in agreement of late! I like this trend.

Great communication requires effort. Some people don't think they ought to take the time and energy to really connect with others. Those that do take the time and energy to effectively translate their thoughts into writing are some of our most positive contributers. I thank them for that.

 

[Bushman5]

I guess my view on survival "rules" & "guidelines" is there is no point in them, because EVERY situation is different. Add in everyones unique physical and mental coping differences on top of that, coupled with weather, time of year etc etc etc etc and its impossible to assign (or go by) "rules" or " guidelines".

Thats what i was trying to explain in my original post. Sorry if it came across diferently. feel free to ignore me, its not going to bug me

 

[Iboschi]

I guess my view on survival "rules" & "guidelines" is there is no point in them, because EVERY situation is different. Add in everyones unique physical and mental coping differences on top of that, coupled with weather, time of year etc etc etc etc and its impossible to assign (or go by) "rules" or " guidelines".

Thats what i was trying to explain in my original post. Sorry if it came across diferently. feel free to ignore me, its not going to bug me

Without going into to much detail here I would like to disagree with this concept. Knowing what your own personal limitations and capabilities are is advantageous, and yes we are all different. Each situation is also different. However, guidelines are designed to give people a general way of understanding something without having to be an expert, or having advanced knowledge on a subject. Even with advanced knowledge some guidelines hold true. The principal of guidelines for the purpose of our discussion is intended to provide a safety buffer for people. Is that a terrible thing? If you're David Blane and can hold your breath for 18 minutes, that is great! Suggesting it isn't a general rule that most people will suffer severe trauma from more than a few mintues without air, would be irresponsible though. In summation: I think we can all agree that guidelines have benefits.

 

[PayetteRucker]

No, it's not a terrible thing, but some people on these forums are past that point where general guidelines are needed. I think it's good for them to be able to discuss above and beyond what the average joe would expect in a survival situation without being thought of as condescending.

 

[Iboschi]

No, it's not a terrible thing, but some people on these forums are past that point where general guidelines are needed. I think it's good for them to be able to discuss above and beyond what the average joe would expect in a survival situation without being thought of as condescending.

If you could provide a definitive example of what you are describing that would be great. Illustrate when and where an established guideline is out of line with what is intelligent, and wise. An example of advanced bush-crafting that defies all guidelines....I do not believe there to be instances where this may be true. Please give me one.

 

[PayetteRucker]

If you could provide a definitive example of what you are describing that would be great. Illustrate when and where an established guideline is out of line with what is intelligent, and wise. An example of advanced bush-crafting that defies all guidelines....I do believe there to be instances where this may be true. Please give me one.

There aren't any and that's not what I'm saying. This post is a classic example. Many people feel that these are rules to live by whereas some of us who know just how far we can push ourselves and where our physical priorities lie can dismiss it. Sometimes that make those who do surpass the guidelines look like condescending jerks and that's simply not the case, it's just we already know what our personal guidelines are and don't need a survival book to generalize for us.

 

[Bushman5]

thank you Payette.

I think its great there is so much information available out there. HOWEVER, this can be confusing and overwhelming to many. You can try a billion different ways to do something, but in the end its the ones who SIMPLIFY those methods and who can do perform under duress without needing to think about rules or guidelines, and who can think outside the box , those are the ones that will survive.

does this make sense? i'm trying to explain it a certain way, maybe its not comign across too well?

 

[chopchop]

in the end its the ones who SIMPLIFY those methods and who can do perform under duress without needing to think about rules or guidelines, and who can think outside the box , those are the ones that will survive.

does this make sense? i'm trying to explain it a certain way, maybe its not comign across too well?

I think I see where you're coming from, but I have to say that the "Rule of 4's" (or 3's or whatever) is supposed to do exactly that...

4 minutes air
4 hours shelter
4 days water
4 weeks food

If SHTF and all you remember is those 4 things, then you are better off for it.

You're right that there are no rules in a survival situation. No hard and fast rules will make sense under those conditions, and creativity or unconventional thinking might be required to make it back in one piece.

Folks who have done the training or lived extensively outdoors may know this instinctively, and not need to be reminded... maybe it's like telling a fish how to swim.

That said, I still think a rule of thumb is helpful for many.

 

[beef]

That said, I still think a rule of thumb is helpful for many.

I'm older than some of the youngans on this board and I still haven't learned all there is to know about the bush and my limits. Till I do, this rule is still useful.

And I'd imagine that in times of stress, you'd not be thinking too clearly. It might be comforting to have an easy to remember rule like that.