The super steel rat race

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The closest thing I have to a super steel are s30v and CPM 154. So far I really appreciate CPM 154, and it is among my most recent knives. But I have little desire to venture further into the $$$ game. I like to sharpen knives, so edge retention is of lesser value to me.
 
Synov said:
So if it's not as tough as Z-Tuff or retaining an edge better than Rex 121, you don't get the point? Performance depends on the balance of attributes for what you're doing, not just one feature. Usually there's a trade off between toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance, but Magnacut achieves the performance of a state of the art high speed steel like M4 while being very stainless. It's not just another steel, it breaks through the limitations of stainless steel.
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Based on statements from Larrin and others, in the mathematical sense Magnacut moves the intercepts. The tradeoffs are still present. but the innovation permits higher toughness and all levels of retention, and vice versa. If true, that is a meaningful innovation.
 
"Early adopters " , God bless their enthusiasm and deep pockets , help to create demand for improvements of every sort . :cool: :thumbsup::thumbsup:

I love that those meaningful improvements eventually "trickle down " to an affordable and practical level , where the value buyer benefits greatly .

You don't have to chase ever new thing and go bankrupt ...just have to wait patiently .

Waiting also serves to sort out the real life functional advantages from the novelty stuff, that's just new and different ( but not better ) .
 
For me, its less about having the need for the latest steel, its more perception of value and certain expectations I have. For example, I feel a knife over $100 should have a PM steel. Over $250, it needs to be better than S30V, CPM-154, those types of steels. The higher end knives, $400 plus, I can sometimes give a pass to, because their heat treatment often is better than full production knives. What good is M390 at 58-59 HRC? S45VN from Spartan or Hinderer will out perform it.

It galls me now to see 154CM on custom/semi-custom knives. At that point, you literally are paying for the name of maker.

The M390 on my Cheburkov blows away the M390/20CV/204P on most of my other knives in edge retention and resistance to chipping. Its worth it to me to spend $400 on it because not only am I getting excellent materials, excellent fit and finish, but also excellent heat treatment and optimal hardness. The next closest knife I own/have owned in that steel type is Spyderco Southard in 204P. Cutting two plastic straps did not even perceptibly change the sharpness of the Cheburkov. My M390 A Purvis Progeny (Bestech made) has rolled on stuff like that.

So I guess I chase quality, which happens to involve chasing good steel.
 
mitchnola said:
My first few years getting into knives I was all about reading up on the next hot new steel but I have to admit, I’m completely over what steel I’m getting on any particular knife. It’s to the point that I don’t even consider or pay much attention to what steel I’m buying these days. If I like a knife I buy it. If I support certain makers, I buy them regardless of steel. At this point I know if I’m spending x amt of dollars Im getting a good steel.

The whole super steel rat race has just become ridiculous to me. It almost seems gimmicky to me so that people feel the need to own every pm2 in the next newest hottest steel for example.

There’s still no steel out there that wont dull, isn’t too hard or too soft and won’t be needed to be sharpened at some point. It will never exist until we figure out how to put a laser edge on a knife or come out with lightsabers.

I also find it amusing how quickly and suddenly the greatest steel ever becomes antiquated. It may only take a year or two. Magnacut will just be the next super steel to become antiquated. I really wonder how much all this steel innovation is solely just to sell more knives? It definitely seems to be the easiest innovation in the knife world, even more so then locking mechanisms.

So I’m just curious if I’m the only one and where or how I’m totally wrong. But otherwise I’m out the rat race. Just give me a great knife with a sharp edge that I can and will sharpen.
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sing it, brother! agree 10000%

I think we've reached the point of diminishing returns on knife blade steel. But others who enjoy it, I'm cool with.
 
I don’t care about super steels myself. I like case steel, CV and stainless. AUS6, AUS8, VG10, 154CM, 440C, 8cr13mov, 1095, ATS34, 420HC, 425M, and that Sandvik steel Kershaw used to use in the 2000s. Maybe they still use it? Thems the ones off the top of my head that I use on a regular or semi regular basis or have in the past and have zero complaints with. They get dull, I sharpen them. Rinse, repeat. I have two knives that are S30V and it seems to do well for me but I haven’t used them enough yet to have a firm opinion. I have one in CPM154 but I’ve never sharpened it. I’ve just never chased the ultimate blade steel. I own and have carried some old Kershaw with 440 stamped on the blades, I’m assuming 440C and they cut and sharpen just as well now as they did nearly 20 years ago when I got them.

I’ve always been more into blade/handle shape and feel and pocket clip design OR if a traditional knife, handle material and pattern more so than blade steel material. That’s always been more of an afterthought for me. Any steel I named above will keep an edge adequate enough for a reasonable amount of time for my purposes.
 
mitchnola said:
Couldn’t blame ya for that. Just curious though if the strongarm was s30, 45, 90 etc would you have the same urge to upgrade to magnacut?
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No, I would have an even stronger urge. :) I value toughness more than edge retention for the kinds of things I use the Strongarm for.

If the existing Strongarm were 14C28N, my urge to upgrade would not be quite as strong.

I might carry a folder with S90V along with the Strongarm, especially if it were a Wharncliffe.
 
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Alone said:
Yeah...

I have blades in MagnaCut, S90V, CPM-154, S35VN, 20CV, S30V, S110V, S45VN, 20CV, etc., etc., etc.


...and I think I'll just stick to cutting with my 420HC, and straight-up beating on my 1095 and 3V.


Your mileage may vary. Flame, flame away! 😍
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JWright214 said:
I’ve found this to be true for me as well. No matter how many “nicer”, “better”, newer steels I acquire, I gravitate towards the familiar, basic, old, tried and true stuff. My most used steels are still 1095, 420HC, and s30v. I have others that I like more, both aesthetically and in use, but if I know there is work to be done I grab the basic stuff.
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Statements like these are so strange to me. I am not singling you out just these are good examples of very common arguments about steels that have nothing to do with steels themselves.

For one by all reasonable definitions s30V and 3V are super steels and are worlds apart from 1095, so when the argument is made "oh I don't need a super steel, I just use tried and true so and so...." then give examples of super steels mixed with low alloy steels, well OK, clearly for your use steel choice just doesn't matter. For your use knife design or geometry or other attributes matter a lot more. That's fine, but that in no way addresses steel attributes. What is also odd is to admit that you like other steels better in use, but you use lesser steels, as in you like them less, when work needs to be done. That again is just a preference for other attributes not the steel, steel just doesn't matter for your use.

I am also baffled by "I like this steel and this other steel is better, but how much better can it be". Well if you like CruWear why wouldn't you like MagnaCut, they are very similar in edge holding and geometry they can support? Let's say you were buying para 2 and both options were available where would the benefit of CruWear be? Let's say Spyderco treated both to 63 HRC, I don't know if they do or not, but just for this example let's say they do. CruWear is a bit tougher, MagnaCut a lot more corrosion resistant. Corrosion resistance might not be needed for your application, but it doesn't hurt in the case of these two steels. What would be the reason to pick CruWear, unless you really can tell the difference in toughness in which case some other steel would probably work better or a change in geometry would help. In another case if you like 26C3 at @65HRC why would you not like K390, ApexUltra, or Z-Max and many others at the same or higher. They would all do better for cutting cardboard with the same geometry which they all can support. All this is from the perspective of the end user. Manufacturers have legitimate reasons for preferring some steels over the others since making knives out of some is much, much simpler and cheaper.

These arguments are really not about steel. If you have a knife you like that works for you then replacing it with the same, but just different steel might not make sense if the differences are small. If you are buying a new knife and it is available in multiple steels then you should pick the better steel for your application. If all you do is cut carboard all day long then going for a low alloy steel makes absolutely no sense given all the options we have today, assuming you are able to sharpen high alloy steels.

Now, if the point here is to just make fun of people that don't use their knives, but just buy another when new steel comes out then I am all for it and I've been guilty of it myself on occasion. At the end of the day if we spent more money and time on sharpening instead of buying new knives then we would both see more differences among steels and also see that many steels work for our use.
 
An avid Science Fiction reader in my youth, I am still waiting for a do-it-all "Vibro-Blade".

Still waiting on a handy pocket BLASTER too!
 
VorpelSword said:
An avid Science Fiction reader in my youth, I am still waiting for a do-it-all "Vibro-Blade".

Still waiting on a handy pocket BLASTER too!
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Good 'ole DL-44? Or are you more of an SE-14r type?

A vibro blade probably would be a bit safer than a light saber, or even a shoto.
 
VorpelSword said:
An avid Science Fiction reader in my youth, I am still waiting for a do-it-all "Vibro-Blade".

Still waiting on a handy pocket BLASTER too!
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I was thinking about what would it take to have a blade that never needed sharpening. Other than a lightsaber/laser, all I could think of is a blade made in anti-matter! Slicing through dimensions baby!!
 
mitchnola said:
I was thinking about what would it take to have a blade that never needed sharpening. Other than a lightsaber/laser, all I could think of is a blade made in anti-matter! Slicing through dimensions baby!!
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Sandrin's Carbide is getting there, it won't be steel that gets to the point of never sharpening that's for sure.
 
Wild Willie said:
When these discussions come up I often wonder if lithic man sat around the campfire and argued the principles of various knapable stone...
"Obsidian gets sharper."
"Keokuk is tougher."
"Novaculite is easier to work."
"I can find Onondaga right here, why should I get imported stone, who cares that it's a pain in the ass to work with?"
I won't even start on the heat treating of the rocks...
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I'm pretty sure they did. :-)
 
ace said:
Statements like these are so strange to me. I am not singling you out just these are good examples of very common arguments about steels that have nothing to do with steels themselves.

For one by all reasonable definitions s30V and 3V are super steels and are worlds apart from 1095, so when the argument is made "oh I don't need a super steel, I just use tried and true so and so...." then give examples of super steels mixed with low alloy steels, well OK, clearly for your use steel choice just doesn't matter. For your use knife design or geometry or other attributes matter a lot more. That's fine, but that in no way addresses steel attributes. What is also odd is to admit that you like other steels better in use, but you use lesser steels, as in you like them less, when work needs to be done. That again is just a preference for other attributes not the steel, steel just doesn't matter for your use.

I am also baffled by "I like this steel and this other steel is better, but how much better can it be". Well if you like CruWear why wouldn't you like MagnaCut, they are very similar in edge holding and geometry they can support? Let's say you were buying para 2 and both options were available where would the benefit of CruWear be? Let's say Spyderco treated both to 63 HRC, I don't know if they do or not, but just for this example let's say they do. CruWear is a bit tougher, MagnaCut a lot more corrosion resistant. Corrosion resistance might not be needed for your application, but it doesn't hurt in the case of these two steels. What would be the reason to pick CruWear, unless you really can tell the difference in toughness in which case some other steel would probably work better or a change in geometry would help. In another case if you like 26C3 at @65HRC why would you not like K390, ApexUltra, or Z-Max and many others at the same or higher. They would all do better for cutting cardboard with the same geometry which they all can support. All this is from the perspective of the end user. Manufacturers have legitimate reasons for preferring some steels over the others since making knives out of some is much, much simpler and cheaper.

These arguments are really not about steel. If you have a knife you like that works for you then replacing it with the same, but just different steel might not make sense if the differences are small. If you are buying a new knife and it is available in multiple steels then you should pick the better steel for your application. If all you do is cut carboard all day long then going for a low alloy steel makes absolutely no sense given all the options we have today, assuming you are able to sharpen high alloy steels.

Now, if the point here is to just make fun of people that don't use their knives, but just buy another when new steel comes out then I am all for it and I've been guilty of it myself on occasion. At the end of the day if we spent more money and time on sharpening instead of buying new knives then we would both see more differences among steels and also see that many steels work for our use.
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I never said that any steel choice I make is based on performance or a particular need. As a matter of fact, I stated that I had newer/nicer/better steels but I still use the basic steels more often. I stated that the majority of my use is 1095 and 420hc, with s30v also being thrown in there. I just didn’t articulate that s30v is not a basic low alloy steel and that it’s probably the third most used, behind the others I listed.

I am fully aware of the differences between the different alloys, how to apply/pair them with the best use, ie k390 will be better for cardboard than 1095. Nothing I said had anything to do with one steel being better than the other, it had to do with my usage and preference. I said preference, not performance, and I never said I that I don’t use the fancier steels, I just don’t use them as often.

The reason I choose to use these steels over the more modern steels that I own is simple. It’s because I like them, have familiarity with them, and they still work, despite there being better options… Oh yeah, and because I can. As long as I’m the one buying my knives, I’ll choose what I want to use.
 
JWright214 said:
The reason I choose to use these steels over the more modern steels that I own is simple. It’s because I like them, have familiarity with them, and they still work, despite there being better options… Oh yeah, and because I can. As long as I’m the one buying my knives, I’ll choose what I want to use.
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Absolutely, and this is what I was alluding to. Your choice in using certain knives has nothing to do with the steels they have. "I use what I like because I can" is not an argument in a discussion on modern steels having advantages over older steels. It really is not an argument at all, it's an explanation. Of course given the choice you can and should use what you like and as long as it works for you all is well. It just can't be used as an argument in a discussion. I have knives I use for sentimental value, I have better knives, but I still use lesser ones. I fully understand I have better tools, but I use lesser ones for other reasons.

Modern steels are better than older steels, there is no argument around that. It is just that knives are more than the steels they are made out of. There are other reasons people prefer some and not others, but this doesn't mean that some steels are not better for for knives.
 
ace said:
Absolutely, and this is what I was alluding to. Your choice in using certain knives has nothing to do with the steels they have. "I use what I like because I can" is not an argument in a discussion on modern steels having advantages over older steels. It really is not an argument at all, it's an explanation. Of course given the choice you can and should use what you like and as long as it works for you all is well. It just can't be used as an argument in a discussion. I have knives I use for sentimental value, I have better knives, but I still use lesser ones. I fully understand I have better tools, but I use lesser ones for other reasons.

Modern steels are better than older steels, there is no argument around that. It is just that knives are more than the steels they are made out of. There are other reasons people prefer some and not others, but this doesn't mean that some steels are not better for for knives.
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The thing is, I wasn’t arguing any points on what was better or worse. I wasn’t debating anything, just making a passing comment on what steels I personally use. I made a statement that I gravitate towards old familiar steels. I never said anything in reference to performance, I spoke on preference. Why you seem to think I was debating what is a better steel is beyond me. Again, I’m fully aware of the benefits of the newer steels and I think they are great. I own a bunch of them and they excel way past the steels I use. But I still prefer the old stuff for various reasons. Again, I was making a statement on what I use and it had nothing to do with what’s better or worse.
 
I love old steels. But I still have some newer steels and love them too (altough even 3V is considered old by today's strandards).

They both work. Innovation is good. Knife is more than just steel type. So many factors here.
 
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