The super steel rat race

[DMG]

Is M4 a super steel?


I use my knife a lot at work and have found M4 to be perfect. 154cm, S30v, 440, etc need sharpening at least twice a week. M4 makes it a week or 2. And it never chips when I accidentally hit a car part with the edge.

Here is some M4 in my tool pile. Note that I carefully put it on a welding glove, not directly on the gravel.

 

[Bob Denman]

M4 is tougher than your ex's divorce lawyer...

 

[Blade Lab]

Is M4 a super steel?


I use my knife a lot at work and have found M4 to be perfect. 154cm, S30v, 440, etc need sharpening at least twice a week. M4 makes it a week or 2. And it never chips when I accidentally hit a car part with the edge.

Yes, I'd say M4 is a super steel. It's a powder-form steel with a relatively high vanadium content. Good balance between toughness and edge retention.

 

[Grasshopperglock]

My experience with M4 is cutting fish into pieces for bait. Haven't had a problem with corrosion on the edge being a coated blade. It's a hammer with a sharp edge. Enjoyable steel for sure.

 

[TSR2]

The development of new alloys is a compelling component for me, as l'm still learning.

 

[Alone]

***Public Service Announcement***


Whatever you do, AVOID that OLD "1095" stuff!

According to the internet graphs, it's absolute CRAP, isn't very tough, and will snap/break at the slightest provocation...

 

[DMG]

I saw someone hammer an Esee into a tree stump and try to pull it out. Then try to kick it out. Then hit it with logs to try to break it out. Finally they were able to wiggle it back and forth enough to loosen it in the wood and get it out. The Esee was fine. They really are idiot proof.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

D DMG M4 definitely is..... Most would put it in the top 10 list.

I haven't personally used M4 yet, but I love what I believe is M2 HSS.
It makes me happy hearing people like it So much!

I get my high end, high alloy steels treated over Winter time, by my Expert.
I'm working on which steels I want, and which of my designs for the blanks

I'm leaning towards adding some M4 blanks into the mix.

 

[Bob Denman]

M4 is just not as corrosion-resistant as some of the other choices...

 

[Delgadonine]

***Public Service Announcement***


Whatever you do, AVOID that OLD "1095" stuff!

According to the internet graphs, it's absolute CRAP, isn't very tough, and will snap/break at the slightest provocation...



View attachment 2306637

Alone, you need to go out on date-with Ms 1095. Preferably in the wild. She can get a good campfire going. Even help make a great meal. She will even climb into a sheath with you. I meant sleeping bag. She'll win you over.

Oh, wait-you we're being sarcastic!

You'll be doing all the camp chores.

With a plastic knife.

 Haha

 

[Way-Barney]

O-1 used to be a supersteel. A marvel of technological innovation, a steel that could be quenched without cracking or distortion- IN OIL!

 

[Alone]

Alone, you need to go out on date-with Ms 1095. Preferably in the wild. She can get a good campfire going. Even help make a great meal. She will even climb into a sheath with you. I meant sleeping bag. She'll win you over.

Oh, wait-you we're being sarcastic!

You'll be doing all the camp chores.

With a plastic knife.

 Haha

Man, I'm a subscriber to Ms. 1095's "Only Fans"...$12.99 a month.

 

[Skywalker31]

So I’m just curious if I’m the only one and where or how I’m totally wrong. But otherwise I’m out the rat race. Just give me a great knife with a sharp edge that I can and will sharpen.

I certainly do appreciate super steels but it’s gotten to the point that there’s so many of them I no longer keep up with it. I buy quality knives so I know they’re going to have a good steel.

I think I'm at a middle ground compared to what you've described. I've tried a decent number of steels and I know the ones that I like and kind of the range of properties that work well for me.

So I don't feel the need to jump on every new steel that comes out - still don't own any magnacut, didn't try to grab any of the recent 15V Spyderco runs. I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy them and I may get to them (well, magnacut, at least) some day but based on my reading about their characteristics it's not worth fighting my way through the rat race for them.

Others I've tried in one or two models and they didn't really click for me - S90V, S110V - so no worries if new releases in those or other new steels described similarly pass me by.

But, I know I really like M390/204P/20CV, so I've got duplicates and backups in the same model of those steels and I have made an effort to grab limited runs on occasion. I'm starting to really like K390 (it acts for me how other people always talked about M4) and certainly don't need as many knives in it as I've already picked up (fortunately, most regular production).

The longer you're in the hobby the more you figure out which facets of it you enjoy and want to focus on. And they may change over time! Feed your family and fund your retirement first and after that do what makes you happy, whether that's in the supersteel rat race trenches or sittin' on the porch with a slipjoint in 1095.

 

[mitchnola]

I think I'm at a middle ground compared to what you've described. I've tried a decent number of steels and I know the ones that I like and kind of the range of properties that work well for me.

So I don't feel the need to jump on every new steel that comes out - still don't own any magnacut, didn't try to grab any of the recent 15V Spyderco runs. I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy them and I may get to them (well, magnacut, at least) some day but based on my reading about their characteristics it's not worth fighting my way through the rat race for them.

Others I've tried in one or two models and they didn't really click for me - S90V, S110V - so no worries if new releases in those or other new steels described similarly pass me by.

But, I know I really like M390/204P/20CV, so I've got duplicates and backups in the same model of those steels and I have made an effort to grab limited runs on occasion. I'm starting to really like K390 (it acts for me how other people always talked about M4) and certainly don't need as many knives in it as I've already picked up (fortunately, most regular production).

The longer you're in the hobby the more you figure out which facets of it you enjoy and want to focus on. And they may change over time! Feed your family and fund your retirement first and after that do what makes you happy, whether that's in the supersteel rat race trenches or sittin' on the porch with a slipjoint in 1095.

Excellent advice, thanks!

 

[David Mary]

Given this is seven pages, I will post after admittedly only looking at page one.

My first few years getting into knives I was all about reading up on the next hot new steel but I have to admit, I’m completely over what steel I’m getting on any particular knife. It’s to the point that I don’t even consider or pay much attention to what steel I’m buying these days. If I like a knife I buy it. If I support certain makers, I buy them regardless of steel. At this point I know if I’m spending x amt of dollars Im getting a good steel.

I think this is reasonable and an admirable stance.

The whole super steel rat race has just become ridiculous to me. It almost seems gimmicky to me so that people feel the need to own every pm2 in the next newest hottest steel for example.

Some people might say the same about stamp collecting, or coin collecting, etc. And while I am neither, I don't think it is ridiculous that someone else is one, or both, or all three.

There’s still no steel out there that [...] isn’t too hard or too soft

Too hard or soft for what? Rhetorical to make the point that actually some steels, with the right heat treatment, are just about perfect for a given use.

and won’t be needed to be sharpened at some point.

That's true.

Magnacut will just be the next super steel to become antiquated.

You've seen from this thread that many folks are very happy to use things like 420HC and 1095. Those steels are used in copious amounts to this day. I do not consider that "antiquated", and by that measure, MagnaCut will never be.

I really wonder how much all this steel innovation is solely just to sell more knives?

Innovation produces breakthroughs that can improve the world. It's a process worth paying for in any industry.

So I’m just curious if I’m the only one and where or how I’m totally wrong. But otherwise I’m out the rat race. Just give me a great knife with a sharp edge that I can and will sharpen.

You're not wrong if you don't care about steel innovation, or acquiring specialty steels. If you think the process of innovation is objectively bad, on the other hand....

Why would magnacut even be needed? To me, it's not fully proven

The inventor has alleged certain properties regarding it. Those properties manifest consistently in use and testing. That's proof.

Literally flies

Thin geo is just more fun to me while doing work, and I have my doubts that most of the high alloy steels would do well being run this thin.

Great looking knife though, and agreed, I would not want to grind S110V at that thinness. MagnaCut, on the other hand, can be ground quite thin. I don't have any in the shop at the moment to put to the caliper, but I reground my Tenacious in S35VN to where is reads 0 at the heel, and .02 mm (ie .008") at the tip. I have never had edge damage, but I admit I don't baton carriage bolts with it either.

All steels have their own optimal use cases.

Exactly.

I value edge retention the most. I honestly don't see the greatness of Magnacut.

The second sentence is a direct byproduct of the first.

I'll come straight out and say that corrosion issues baffle me

In this we are similar. I wear a carbon steel neck knife, even when its hot out and riding a bicycle hard. But evidently others in different climates and with different body chemistry will have different results than you or me. Nevertheless I am excited to claim a MagnaCut neck knife from my current run, so I have virtually rust-proof knife of my own again.

MagnaCut actually does seem special.

Quite so. Best balance yet achieved between the three cardinal blade properties as far as I can tell.

 

[DeadboxHero]

If you use and sharpen your knife, you will see the differences in steels. The problem is some people just collect these things like trading cards and say that everything is hype when they still have the factory edge and no elbow grease on the handles.

The biggest difference is being able to sharpen when you want to, not because you have to.

Heat treatment can also widely change the sharpenability even with the same steel.

 

[mitchnola]

If you use and sharpen your knife, you will see the differences in steels. The problem is some people just collect these things like trading cards and say that everything is hype when they still have the factory edge and no elbow grease on the handles.

The biggest difference is being able to sharpen when you want to, not because you have to.

Heat treatment can also widely change the sharpenability even with the same steel.

I absolutely agree and must admit I’m guilty of lack of use to a certain extent.

It’s not that I don’t want to use my knives but rather I just really don’t need to with my current job and lifestyle.

I’ve also given much thought about that as this thread progressed which is part of what I love about bf and the wealth of knowledge and experience.

My position has certainly evolved since this thread and I realize I still have much to learn and experience in regards to our current crop of steels.

I also plan to get better at sharpening over the next couple of years which will undoubtedly result in preferences and appreciation for certain steels.

 

[mitchnola]

Given this is seven pages, I will post after admittedly only looking at page one.



I think this is reasonable and an admirable stance.



Some people might say the same about stamp collecting, or coin collecting, etc. And while I am neither, I don't think it is ridiculous that someone else is one, or both, or all three.



Too hard or soft for what? Rhetorical to make the point that actually some steels, with the right heat treatment, are just about perfect for a given use.



That's true.



You've seen from this thread that many folks are very happy to use things like 420HC and 1095. Those steels are used in copious amounts to this day. I do not consider that "antiquated", and by that measure, MagnaCut will never be.



Innovation produces breakthroughs that can improve the world. It's a process worth paying for in any industry.




You're not wrong if you don't care about steel innovation, or acquiring specialty steels. If you think the process of innovation is objectively bad, on the other hand....



The inventor has alleged certain properties regarding it. Those properties manifest consistently in use and testing. That's proof.







Great looking knife though, and agreed, I would not want to grind S110V at that thinness. MagnaCut, on the other hand, can be ground quite thin. I don't have any in the shop at the moment to put to the caliper, but I reground my Tenacious in S35VN to where is reads 0 at the heel, and .02 mm (ie .008") at the tip. I have never had edge damage, but I admit I don't baton carriage bolts with it either.

View attachment 2306729



Exactly.



The second sentence is a direct byproduct of the first.



In this we are similar. I wear a carbon steel neck knife, even when its hot out and riding a bicycle hard. But evidently others in different climates and with different body chemistry will have different results than you or me. Nevertheless I am excited to claim a MagnaCut neck knife from my current run, so I have virtually rust-proof knife of my own again.



Quite so. Best balance yet achieved between the three cardinal blade properties as far as I can tell.

Absolutely the best response yet imo

I have previously stated at some point in the thread that I was absolutely wrong on the innovation comment.

On the antiquated comment, I didn’t mean to imply the actual steel was antiquated but rather the hype around it I suppose.

I really appreciate your response and your approach to the debate. All your points seem very valid and backed up. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience!

Mitch

 

[DeadboxHero]

I absolutely agree and must admit I’m guilty of lack of use to a certain extent.

It’s not that I don’t want to use my knives but rather I just really don’t need to with my current job and lifestyle.

I’ve also given much thought about that as this thread progressed which is part of what I love about bf and the wealth of knowledge and experience.

My position has certainly evolved since this thread and I realize I still have much to learn and experience in regards to our current crop of steels.

I also plan to get better at sharpening over the next couple of years which will undoubtedly result in preferences and appreciation for certain steels.

Here's a fun little story.


I had a non-knife friend from work that only carried buck folding knives in 420HC.

It wasn't because he's a fan of the steel. He just doesn't care.

Well, I thought it'd be very curious to give him a a carbon tool steel knife. A CPM Rex 45 Spyderco military which measured at 67 HRC.

This is a steel that people would say would be way too brittle to be put into a bigger knife like a military.

He carried it everyday for over a year.

He has a piece of property and uses it for a wide range of tasks, not office use.







In his experience, there was a drastic difference in edge retention. He said his buck in 420HC would have gone dull in the first month of use.

The Rex 45 lasted an entire year with the same use He was quite impressed and as you can see he didn't freak out because his non-stainless knife got a stain on it. Let em patina boys


I did a bess test on the edge what I noticed is
that rather than the edge on a soft, low carbide steel being 1000g bess in the first month the edge stayed around 500g for a very long time rather than blunting completely smooth.




So, some of the problem I have with the knife community is that we have some folks pretending they're experts telling us different steels at high hardnesses are all hype when their knives look brand new, factory edge and they're just reading and regurgitating with other people say and not putting any time on the edge IMHO.

 

[ace]

***Public Service Announcement***


Whatever you do, AVOID that OLD "1095" stuff!

According to the internet graphs, it's absolute CRAP, isn't very tough, and will snap/break at the slightest provocation...



View attachment 2306637

You are sort of missing the point or maybe I am misunderstanding what this thread is about. Your examples are pure geometry at play. What you are showing has nothing to do with 1095 being a tough steel, it is not, compared to other steels commonly used in knives. It is tough enough with this geometry, heat treat and for this use. If splitting wood with a knife is what you want then fine. Axes are not made out of high alloy steels either. Cutting a bunch of carboard with these would be a nightmare on the other hand. The point I was trying to make was that modern steels are not hype, MagnaCut is unique and an innovation in how it balances different steel properties creating a great, maybe currently the best general purpose knife steel. There is no best steel, but some are better than others for a specific purpose.

In any case David Mary and DeadboxHero said this better than me anyway.