"The Top of The Pops" The Next Generation of Knife Steels

I love all of the high-end steels available today: D2 (OK, it's been around for generations, but it could be considered one of the first super alloys), VG-10, ASTS-34, even 420HC (the way Buck heat treats it) and all of the Crucible cutlery steels. But it is still hard to beat good old simple high carbon steels for toughness, edge retention and ease of sharpening.
 
Speaking of D2, what about CPM D2?


I love D2 for it's Savage edge retention (been using Dozier hunting knives for years),

...but even Bob Dozier admits it's a bit on the fragile side for tough use (lateral stress).


CPM D2, with it's finer grain structure (a huge deal on a steel like D2), seems to offer a lot of improvement.

I see even Bark River (a company that stresses toughness over edge retention, hence A2), is taking the plunge and producing a prototype in CPM D2.




Big Mike
 
Speaking of D2, what about CPM D2?


I love D2 for it's Savage edge retention (been using Dozier hunting knives for years),

...but even Bob Dozier admits it's a bit on the fragile side for tough use (lateral stress).


CPM D2, with it's finer grain structure (a huge deal on a steel like D2), seems to offer a lot of improvement.

I see even Bark River (a company that stresses toughness over edge retention, hence A2), is taking the plunge and producing a prototype in CPM D2.




Big Mike
 
The steel needs to match the knife, both in performance relative to the rest of the knife, quality of materials relative to the rest of the knife, and with the intended use. Put H2 on a knife intended for commercial fisherman, and 1095 on a traditional knife.
 
rustyrazor said:
yeah... from what i hear and read, it's actually super tough (quite a lot tougher at 60 than CPM S35VN at 58HRC actually) and I was impressed with the S35VN on a blade i bought. i was just wondering how good it really is, as i don't hear much about it's testing and comparisons. i'm ordering some and plan to run my own testing and eval on it in the near future, so if i find anything amazing, I'll let you know.
Click to expand...
The above quote refers to ELMAX steel. The following links give comparisons:
http://www.bucorp.com/files/Toughness_testing_for_knife_steels.pdf
http://www.kau.se/sites/default/files/Dokument/subpage/2010/02/26_349_359_pdf_19432.pdf

ELMAX impact toughness is certainly much better than 440C at the same hardness, but you are still looking at only ~30 J/cm^2 with an un-notched non-standard test sample. A2 pushes impact toughness above 50 J/cm^2, CPM-3V reaches ~100 J/cm^2, and A9, S7, and INFI reach ~150 J/cm^2! As tough steels go, ELMAX is nowhere close to what others have achieved.

However, ELMAX may give the highest toughness of steels with that level of corrosion and wear-resistance?
I believe that BU has indicated M390 superior to ELMAX in all three of these respects, but it is more expensive and since both are designed for high corrosion and wear resistance, not impact toughness, BU recommends the less expensive ELMAX steel over M390, and at lower hardness, for applications where impact damage is likely. Crucible suggests that users choose a less corrosion-resistant steel like their CPM-3V if impact damage is expected, but will its wear-resistance come close to matching ELMAX? Where are you willing to compromise? How tough does your blade need to be? For a less tough blade, you could improve chip-resistance at the edge by altering the geometry - instead of CPM-3V at 0.010", use ELMAX at 0.030"...
 
I wish I knew what all you "steel geeks" do with your knives that you need such high performance. I go camping about 6 weekends a year and sometimes spend 10 days in the summer camping in Colorado. I occasionally hunt deer or feral pigs and more frequently upland birds. Most of the rest of the time my knives are used for very mundane activities like cutting zip ties and opening letters. I have never found any of my knives with "mediocre" S30V and below steels lacking or the job. I do, occasionally like to order a knife with one of the newer super steels, just because, but I really can't say that I see any big advantage over my old trusty Uncle Henry, when performing day to day tasks. Then again, you never know when you might need to cut 50 feet of rope into 1 inch segments.
Of course this lack of understanding is probably due to my advanced age. One day, my son asked me how fast my car would go. When I told him I had no idea, he looked at me like I was from outer space. Just like I don't know how many one inch strips of cardboard my knives will cut before needing sharpening, I will never need to find out.
 
Cardiackid said:
I wish I knew what all you "steel geeks" do with your knives that you need such high performance. I go camping about 6 weekends a year and sometimes spend 10 days in the summer camping in Colorado. I occasionally hunt deer or feral pigs and more frequently upland birds. Most of the rest of the time my knives are used for very mundane activities like cutting zip ties and opening letters. I have never found any of my knives with "mediocre" S30V and below steels lacking or the job. I do, occasionally like to order a knife with one of the newer super steels, just because, but I really can't say that I see any big advantage over my old trusty Uncle Henry, when performing day to day tasks. Then again, you never know when you might need to cut 50 feet of rope into 1 inch segments.
Of course this lack of understanding is probably due to my advanced age. One day, my son asked me how fast my car would go. When I told him I had no idea, he looked at me like I was from outer space. Just like I don't know how many one inch strips of cardboard my knives will cut before needing sharpening, I will never need to find out.
Click to expand...

I really am very happy for you. :p
 
Big Mike said:
Speaking of D2, what about CPM D2?


I love D2 for it's Savage edge retention (been using Dozier hunting knives for years),

...but even Bob Dozier admits it's a bit on the fragile side for tough use (lateral stress).


CPM D2, with it's finer grain structure (a huge deal on a steel like D2), seems to offer a lot of improvement.

I see even Bark River (a company that stresses toughness over edge retention, hence A2), is taking the plunge and producing a prototype in CPM D2.




Big Mike
Click to expand...

I heard through the grape vine they aren't making CPM D2 anymore, but like with most things that might change in the future.
 
Cardiackid said:
I wish I knew what all you "steel geeks" do with your knives that you need such high performance. I go camping about 6 weekends a year and sometimes spend 10 days in the summer camping in Colorado. I occasionally hunt deer or feral pigs and more frequently upland birds. Most of the rest of the time my knives are used for very mundane activities like cutting zip ties and opening letters. I have never found any of my knives with "mediocre" S30V and below steels lacking or the job. I do, occasionally like to order a knife with one of the newer super steels, just because, but I really can't say that I see any big advantage over my old trusty Uncle Henry, when performing day to day tasks. Then again, you never know when you might need to cut 50 feet of rope into 1 inch segments.
Of course this lack of understanding is probably due to my advanced age. One day, my son asked me how fast my car would go. When I told him I had no idea, he looked at me like I was from outer space. Just like I don't know how many one inch strips of cardboard my knives will cut before needing sharpening, I will never need to find out.
Click to expand...

Need? How about want? The bare minimum is boring.
I'm all for the advancement of a craft. Onwards and upwards!

I must admit, I haven't been able to tell much of a difference between 8cr13mov and s30v, in use.
The performance aspects that are most important to me are corrosion resistance and toughness.
Stainless steel is a rather recent thing (past 100 years?), and I'm glad some group of people cared enough to develop it and make it widely available.


I don't know why we use these new-fangled steels at all. Bronze works just fine. ;)
Now get off my lawn. :p
 
Speaking of D2, what about CPM D2?


I love D2 for it's Savage edge retention (been using Dozier hunting knives for years),

...but even Bob Dozier admits it's a bit on the fragile side for tough use (lateral stress).


CPM D2, with it's finer grain structure (a huge deal on a steel like D2), seems to offer a lot of improvement.
Click to expand...


Big Mike, I had a knifemaker tell me that CPM D2 wasn't more common because some knifemakers don't want the smaller, finer grain structure that the powder process gives. D2, especially in knives like skinners does really well with the large, toothy grain structure.

CPM D2 has some advantages obviously, but traditional D2 is what some of them prefer. You are a knifemaker . What's your feeling about that? I'm curious.

Personally I like CPM D2 better than D2, but D2 isn't in my top ten list of favorites to be honest.

Joe
 
Last edited:
Cardiackid said:
I don't mean to be demeaning if that is your job, Singularity. I want to know more about it.
Click to expand...

Well said Nullity.

Nullity said:
Need? How about want? The bare minimum is boring.
I'm all for the advancement of a craft. Onwards and upwards!

I must admit, I haven't been able to tell much of a difference between 8cr13mov and s30v, in use.
The performance aspects that are most important to me are corrosion resistance and toughness.
Stainless steel is a rather recent thing (past 100 years?), and I'm glad some group of people cared enough to develop it and make it widely available.


I don't know why we use these new-fangled steels at all. Bronze works just fine. ;)
Now get off my lawn. :p
Click to expand...
 
chiral.grolim said:
The above quote refers to ELMAX steel. The following links give comparisons:
http://www.bucorp.com/files/Toughness_testing_for_knife_steels.pdf
http://www.kau.se/sites/default/files/Dokument/subpage/2010/02/26_349_359_pdf_19432.pdf

ELMAX impact toughness is certainly much better than 440C at the same hardness, but you are still looking at only ~30 J/cm^2 with an un-notched non-standard test sample. A2 pushes impact toughness above 50 J/cm^2, CPM-3V reaches ~100 J/cm^2, and A9, S7, and INFI reach ~150 J/cm^2! As tough steels go, ELMAX is nowhere close to what others have achieved.

However, ELMAX may give the highest toughness of steels with that level of corrosion and wear-resistance?
I believe that BU has indicated M390 superior to ELMAX in all three of these respects, but it is more expensive and since both are designed for high corrosion and wear resistance, not impact toughness, BU recommends the less expensive ELMAX steel over M390, and at lower hardness, for applications where impact damage is likely. Crucible suggests that users choose a less corrosion-resistant steel like their CPM-3V if impact damage is expected, but will its wear-resistance come close to matching ELMAX? Where are you willing to compromise? How tough does your blade need to be? For a less tough blade, you could improve chip-resistance at the edge by altering the geometry - instead of CPM-3V at 0.010", use ELMAX at 0.030"...
Click to expand...

That's why I suggested Sleipner to rustyrazor.
D2 with two times the toughness.
 
I understand the "want" thing. I bought a S30v knife when it was trendy. I have a PM2 with M390 on order. It is the tone of some posts that imply people using knives with anything less than the most modern steel are equivalent to people who are still using Windows Vista.
 
Cardiackid said:
I understand the "want" thing. I bought a S30v knife when it was trendy. I have a PM2 with M390 on order. It is the tone of some posts that imply people using knives with anything less than the most modern steel are equivalent to people who are still using Windows Vista.
Click to expand...


Nothing NEW about most of these steels as some of them have been around and in use for over 20+ years.

Only now some of them are finally being used in some production knives....
 
Cardiackid said:
I understand the "want" thing. I bought a S30v knife when it was trendy. I have a PM2 with M390 on order. It is the tone of some posts that imply people using knives with anything less than the most modern steel are equivalent to people who are still using Windows Vista.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with windows vista? You make it sound like people still using vista are like the people still using 5160...:p
 
singularity35 said:
What's wrong with windows vista? It's not like your stuck using 5160...:p
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. :D

I am still using Vista and XP for that matter, but then I build my own machines and they aren't slow.... ;)
 
Ankerson said:
I was thinking the same thing. :D

I am still using Vista and XP for that matter, but then I build my own machines and they aren't slow.... ;)
Click to expand...

I liked XP, I really just had to get this newfangled Windows 7 because my old machine got effed up and the store people don't have any installer for the older stuff anymore.
 
singularity35 said:
I liked XP, I really just had to get this newfangled Windows 7 because my old machine got effed up and the store people don't have any installer for the older stuff anymore.
Click to expand...

I would still be running Windows 2000 if it wasn't for compatibility issues with the newer hardware, although I still have my old Dual CPU server running 2000. ;)

Need to pull the SCSI drives and card out of it one day when I have the energy and add them to a newer system.

I haven't even seen Win 7. LOL :D
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top