"The Top of The Pops" The Next Generation of Knife Steels

hardheart said:
I'm not following...

The discussion of advancement was quite focused on wear resistance increases, and steels like 52100 or 5160 weren't designed for it. If we want more toughness, or corrosion resistance, or red hardness, or creep resistance, or dimensional stability, then there are lots of alloys for structural, aerospace, tooling, and more. The aficionado is usually pretty concerned with edge holding at room temperature. And where industries other than cutlery have developed advancements in cutting, they have sometimes gone to carbides, ceramics, lasers, abrasive jet, EDM, etc. Expanding beyond knives doesn't really affect my basic notion that if you want to go 'high tech', that there isn't a ton of room for steels that remain suitable for knives. There's a lot of non-steel items and materials, that's certain...

It's like buying a toddler the most technologically advanced, heavily advertised, highly studied, doctor approved toy on the market, and then the child is entertained by the shipping box it came in. There is the minimum needed to get the job done, and the best effort we can develop to do that same job. Neither is the actual answer to what the individual 'needs', so the questions of economy, feasibility, sustainability, performance, and satisfaction get different answers as well.
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It looks like my point has been sufficiently elucidated, that many of the modern marvels in cutlery material throughout the history of the advancement have been driven by other industries, other pursuits such as automotive and aerospace engineering, fields which have significant financial investments from governments and private companies. I chose 52100 because, while my ignorance is vast, I am aware that this was created for better ball-bearings, but it also makes a better knife steel in specific applications than some others. Wasn't 440C developed as the corrosion resistant replacement for 52100 before it found its way into knives? And SM-100 (mentioned before) is being touted as the replacement for 440C. Now, I have been told that most bearings are still 52100, be that because it is cheaper or better in specific applications than 440C, and both are certainly more cost effective than SM-100 for most applications. You are right, it may never be the case that 440C or SM-100 become the most common materials used in cutlery... but that does not mean that new blade materials won't continue to arise, because the characteristics that make good blades also are important in other applications that receive greater funding for innovation. And that was my point.

You mentioned tooling and manufacture - isn't that where most of our cutlery steels come from? Attempts to improve one aspect or other of a specific tool or part of the manufacturing chain? Were certain steels specifically designed for hand-use knives? Has a steel manufacturer stepped into a professional kitchen and collected information on what characteristics were desired in a blade material and then moved to produce the best knife-steel for that application? Or does it happen more often that a knife manufacturer looks at the steels or other materials produced for other applications and says, "Hey, the characteristics of this steel would make it perfect for cutlery!" I honestly don't know how it all unfolds... I've read that INFI was specifically invented for cutlery.

But it is true, for most cutting tasks of the vast majority of human beings, steel itself is an amazing advancement in technology, as was iron, bronze... and the process of manufacture has also become increasingly complex and energy intensive. Have we reached a plateau now where a revolution in cutlery material will only occur if that material can be formed into a superior cutting tool with lower costs? Is cost the dominate factor? Or is there already a way to produce these new "super" blades at lower objective cost (material, man-power, energy), but the infrastructure is already biased toward.. well, whatever China is producing?

Market access and policy bias of governing bodies can often be the determining factor in all of this... Is it so here?
 
Ankerson said:
Being rational and talking about price as in cheap have nothing to do with each other and if you read the forums enough and I know you have you know exactly what I am talking about.

Sure people want all of their gadgets, but will bulk at the newer steels MOSTLY due to cost, I was just lumping it altogether into one to make a point about advancements and evolution.

That we don't need and Good enough etc talk in general would have kept all of us back in the dark ages if people thought that way in general about all things.
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So... I am stifling the progress of metallurgy because I can't afford s110v?
 
There are steels specifically designed for cutlery, most from Japanese foundries. VG steels, aogami, shirogami, ZDP, and others from Takefu, Hitachi, and more. Cruforge V was specifically made for forging into blades. PM steel versions by Crucible and Carpenter are made at the request of knife manufacturers.

I think cost is critical, because I believe that knife ownership and use is declining. It is no longer expected as a general rule for a gentlemen nor a working man to carry a knife. It is expressly forbidden in many jurisdictions. This is in some way possible because knives are not as necessary with our current lifestyle. Cars are certainly more dangerous, but society wouldn't last as it is if they were banned. We are enthusiasts, and we are also a small minority. We have to support the advances in materials, design, and production. Not just in speech, but most importantly by financial support. Wholy new tooling and equipment would have to be paid for, and you need enough people spending enough money to do that. I mention the likes of Buck and Case for a reason. They are using steels today that they didn't use before. They are producing knives today that they didn't make before. For the modernization and continued popularity of the 110, the steel is still considered unremarkable. The BG42 slimlocks by Case never got close to the market of the Trusharp or 1095CV peanut. No other manufacturer can likely do more than dream of the volume sales of Victorinox with their relatively soft blades.

Yeah, we have an idea of better, but I doubt enough of the world shares it to make it financially viable. Even if a means to produce such high wear, high hardness steels becomes available, what is the incentive to change? Is there a particular reason to equip Accords and Camrys with 400 horsepower engines?

Try this - is it better to have an automatic watch with intricate complications, or a digital quartz? Which is more modern? How about the mention of more people interested in straight razors instead of vibrating multi-blades? Is that a sign of modern technology taking hold? We like what we like, and it is tough to draw a line in the sand about it. It would be impossible to get the world to step over that line in unison so what we want becomes enough of a priority to make it reality. Some people like the 'old' way, some like 'new'.
 
hardheart said:
There are steels specifically designed for cutlery, most from Japanese foundries. VG steels, aogami, shirogami, ZDP, and others from Takefu, Hitachi, and more. Cruforge V was specifically made for forging into blades. PM steel versions by Crucible and Carpenter are made at the request of knife manufacturers.

I think cost is critical, because I believe that knife ownership and use is declining. It is no longer expected as a general rule for a gentlemen nor a working man to carry a knife. It is expressly forbidden in many jurisdictions. This is in some way possible because knives are not as necessary with our current lifestyle. Cars are certainly more dangerous, but society wouldn't last as it is if they were banned. We are enthusiasts, and we are also a small minority. We have to support the advances in materials, design, and production. Not just in speech, but most importantly by financial support. Wholy new tooling and equipment would have to be paid for, and you need enough people spending enough money to do that. I mention the likes of Buck and Case for a reason. They are using steels today that they didn't use before. They are producing knives today that they didn't make before. For the modernization and continued popularity of the 110, the steel is still considered unremarkable. The BG42 slimlocks by Case never got close to the market of the Trusharp or 1095CV peanut. No other manufacturer can likely do more than dream of the volume sales of Victorinox with their relatively soft blades.

Yeah, we have an idea of better, but I doubt enough of the world shares it to make it financially viable. Even if a means to produce such high wear, high hardness steels becomes available, what is the incentive to change? Is there a particular reason to equip Accords and Camrys with 400 horsepower engines?

Try this - is it better to have an automatic watch with intricate complications, or a digital quartz? Which is more modern? How about the mention of more people interested in straight razors instead of vibrating multi-blades? Is that a sign of modern technology taking hold? We like what we like, and it is tough to draw a line in the sand about it. It would be impossible to get the world to step over that line in unison so what we want becomes enough of a priority to make it reality. Some people like the 'old' way, some like 'new'.
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True...well said.
 
It's a given that the knife-industry is a small one, especially compared to something like the plastics industry, where M390 at least was developed, if I recall correctly. Of course, there is money in the high-end knife production world, even if it is in small batched such as from SURVIVE! knives (which has my vote for the best new company of the year) or in custom orders, like Phil Wilson or contless other makers can attest, a good number of them members of this very forum. These producers offer very expensive, specialized tools to a very small number of consumers who are willing to pay for it. As long as this continues, I see no ceiling to knife steels, as far as supply and demand go. These people are passionate and so will always be pushing higher and harder in search of better knives.

If I wanted a knife in 10V or K294, though they have never to my knowledge been used in a production knife, and I don't see them ever being considered by Buck or Case in the future, I could still get one if I was willing to pay. It's all about what you want and are willing to pay for. As long as there are a few hundred people out there asking for better knives, and are willing to pay for them, knives will get better.

But, back to the materials themselves, SM-100 is interesting, hopefully a few knives will come around in the stuff ASAP. Cruwear is a steel I always assumed to be unsuitable for knife steels, since it looks so good stacked up against D2, but it still isn't used. I just figured there was no way it was simply overlooked, like it seems to have been. I would surely like to see a company put out a few models in the stuff, it sounds like a beast on paper.
 
Steels aren't really overlooked, they are not used if the steel is not available in flat sheet or strip. That is a huge barrier, the fact that when a steel is developed to make round drill and cutting bits or extrusion screws, it is going to be produced in round stock and the only makers who turn it into blades are forgers. And you can't hand forge a lot of the steels we are talking about. We are doing better in this area as steel suppliers have recognized the cutlery industry and are rolling what they can. But again, there are steels that can't be rolled down. And the barrier/ceiling already exists with steels we have. Ask Phil Wilson if he thinks 15V is a good knife steel compared to 10V or if he will make you a blade in S125V. Non-steels. we should have plenty of wiggle room. I wouldn't mind seeing a graphene cheese slicer.

It will be interesting to see if anyone goes anywhere with SM-100. It is prohibitively expensive, and I don't really see where the benefits of it are. It has such terribly low stiffness that I don't see how an edge would stand up. Wear resistance also doesn't appear to be anything great, they only claim to have improved wear resistance versus melts of Nitinol that had large voids in the structure. If it had good wear characteristics, it might only be for adhesive wear, which is of little concern to a knife edge. Still, we might find out.
 
hardheart said:
Ask Phil Wilson if he thinks 15V is a good knife steel compared to 10V or if he will make you a blade in S125V.
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I have had those conversations with Phil, more than once, it usually ends up with him saying he would rather hit his thumb with a hammer. :D

CPM 10V is his standard for edge retention and for good reason.
 
Cruwear is a steel I always assumed to be unsuitable for knife steels, since it looks so good stacked up against D2, but it still isn't used. I just figured there was no way it was simply overlooked, like it seems to have been. I would surely like to see a company put out a few models in the stuff, it sounds like a beast on paper
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Cruwear is very suited for knife, and other blades. It was well known for it's use in school office ,and art class paper cutters. As a knife steel it takes great edges. They can be savage at medium/low grits in the 280-320 range. It has better wear resistance, and is tougher than D2, which is saying a lot.

It is also not cheap. It can be difficult to work, and is known for work hardening during grinding which can ruin a knifemakers day. It also is not stainless, and pits when it corrodes.

For the same price you can get easier to work powder stainless steels, or steels like 3V.

It's less wear resistant, and less tough than CPM M4, which can be as easy, or easier to work.

Sometimes it's not lack of performance that causes a steel to drop by the wayside. Sometimes there are better ( more wear, better corrosion, easier working) steels that overshawdow a steel causing it to be overlooked.

In the industrial world it's not overlooked. In fact, several companies have developed powder steel versions of it which shows it has performance that fits a slot industry needs ( Z-wear, Lescowear, PD-1, etc. It's also the uncle of 3V, believe it or not)

So, while it's overlooked by many, I continue to use it and find it one of my favorite steels. It's in my top 5 in fact,

Joe
 
is the general rule the higher the HRC the harder to sharpen?

so zdp-189 at 65 would be harder to sharpen then CPM 154 at 62?
 
To bring this back to the top ;)

What can you say about SLD steel from Hitachi (S-magic) as used by G.Sakai?
 
hardheart said:
But again, there are steels that can't be rolled down. And the barrier/ceiling already exists with steels we have. Ask Phil Wilson if he thinks 15V is a good knife steel compared to 10V or if he will make you a blade in S125V. Non-steels. we should have plenty of wiggle room. I wouldn't mind seeing a graphene cheese slicer.

It will be interesting to see if anyone goes anywhere with SM-100. It is prohibitively expensive, and I don't really see where the benefits of it are.
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Of course this is a little out of date, but you are naming a few I'm currently playing with. You make some good points above. I actually run into the issue of availability a lot when I'm looking for materials. Of course, for custom knives, this is part of the fun.

The big things I see for for SM-100 is corrosion resistance and weight. And because I think it'd be neat to make a knife with SM-100 and titanium with virtually no iron. Again, in some applications soft corrosion resistant steels hold up well. I would expect the same here. (Hell, it can't be worse than my 10+ yr old gerber LST!)

As for the S-125V, I really really like this steel. I like the way it works, I like the way it holds and edge, I like it's corrosion resistance. Don't get me wrong, it's not for everyone but it offers what I want in one package. Even at HRC63-64 its tough enough for how I use a knife. I'd probably never sell a S-125V knife to anyone who didn't know what it was or didn't understand the implications of this particular steel. But for those who do, it's a great option to have.

SM-100, S-125V and Talonite all have their places, Just like Ferrari, Porsche, and Lamborghini.

As with a lot of things, you don't have to have a reason to like it, you can just like it!

Dan
 
I would like to see those super steals with differential heat treatment. Not the "sandwich jobs" spyderco has been doing, but actually differential heat treatment. Like how they used to to make samurai swords.
 
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