"The Top of The Pops" The Next Generation of Knife Steels

[singularity35]

Just looking at things logically.

Image if nothing evolved because things were good enough from say 10,000 years ago.......

Or

5,000 years ago....

Or

3,000 years ago.....


Or how about even 500 years ago....

No stainless, no TV, no mobile phones, and no arguing on the interwebz hehehe. We wouldn't be discussing the merits of 440C against S90V because we'd be so busy lighting the fires for the dinner we just killed.

 

[zpstl321]

I wouldn't go that far as to say 420 is comparable to S30V, that stretching it a bit.

420 isn't a bad steel, for for everything that is good about it there are other steels that are better at each and everything AND a combination of some or all of them combined.

No steel is unbreakable, although some are more suited for that kind of use.

Edge retention needs will vary depending on real use and what is being cut.

Price has really nothing to do with it as I believe performance was the subject although price does factor into it as a compromise on performance no matter how one tries to spin it, you in the end get what you pay for with steels.

I seen a study done by a group in which Buck's 420HC with factory profile cut 60% more than all of the "super Steels". I think to many times people get wrapped up in internet theory. Another good example it the videos done by virtuovice. Watch his use of super steel on dressing deer and then see the results under a microscope and paper cutting test. Many of them he clearly shows A2 was the better performed vs. ATS34, 154, s30V, 3V, etc.. In fact watch teh test on 440C, and the test on Mora blade steels. You can see he is surprised how well they performed. Factory in how easy they are to maintain and that they cost $10 to $30 vs the $300 blades they compeated against and you can see why so many people like great blades made from 440C and 420HC.

 

[Nullity]

I seen a study done by a group in which Buck's 420HC with factory profile cut 60% more than all of the "super Steels". I think to many times people get wrapped up in internet theory. Another good example it the videos done by virtuovice. Watch his use of super steel on dressing deer and then see the results under a microscope and paper cutting test. Many of them he clearly shows A2 was the better performed vs. ATS34, 154, s30V, 3V, etc.. In fact watch teh test on 440C, and the test on Mora blade steels. You can see he is surprised how well they performed. Factory in how easy they are to maintain and that they cost $10 to $30 vs the $300 blades they compeated against and you can see why so many people like great blades made from 440C and 420HC.

Virtuovice is a good example of knowing what steel is needed for what job. Some jobs call for tough steels, other jobs call for hard, wear-resistant steels. As everyone says, there's no universal best, there is only what is best for the job at hand.

If the edge is dulling from chipping, you need a tougher steel. If it is dulling from corrosion, you need a more stainless steel (or improved maintenance). If the edge is dulling because the edge is rolling, you need a harder steel.

No single steel or heat-treat will perform well as a paring knife and an axe head. You need to know what steel properties you need.

 

[Ankerson]

I seen a study done by a group in which Buck's 420HC with factory profile cut 60% more than all of the "super Steels". I think to many times people get wrapped up in internet theory. Another good example it the videos done by virtuovice. Watch his use of super steel on dressing deer and then see the results under a microscope and paper cutting test. Many of them he clearly shows A2 was the better performed vs. ATS34, 154, s30V, 3V, etc.. In fact watch teh test on 440C, and the test on Mora blade steels. You can see he is surprised how well they performed. Factory in how easy they are to maintain and that they cost $10 to $30 vs the $300 blades they compeated against and you can see why so many people like great blades made from 440C and 420HC.

MOST of that is blade and edge geometry...... Not the steels.

 

[zpstl321]

Sometimes you need a "softer steel to prevent chipping, as he shows in the video. The A2, 440C, and 420HC all faired better in that reguard. Once also has to wonder if skinning and processing a deer is hard use how would these super steels hold up to some of the thing I do with my blades? Processing deer is something I can do witht eh $10 knife without worry. I'm just saying, blade shape, heat treat and other factorys mean far more that what steel is used. I like good steel but to think a knife is great because it was made with "great wonder steel" is asking for trouble. Knowing not to use 3v for cleaning deer or super steels for bushcraft is just a starting point.

 

[Ankerson]

Sometimes you need a "softer steel to prevent chipping, as he shows in the video. The A2, 440C, and 420HC all faired better in that reguard. Once also has to wonder if skinning and processing a deer is hard use how would these super steels hold up to some of the thing I do with my blades? Processing deer is something I can do witht eh $10 knife without worry. I'm just saying, blade shape, heat treat and other factorys mean far more that what steel is used. I like good steel but to think a knife is great because it was made with "great wonder steel" is asking for trouble. Knowing not to use 3v for cleaning deer or super steels for bushcraft is just a starting point.

They hold up better than one would believe if the knife is made properly with a good HT.

 

[Ankerson]

No stainless, no TV, no mobile phones, and no arguing on the interwebz hehehe. We wouldn't be discussing the merits of 440C against S90V because we'd be so busy lighting the fires for the dinner we just killed.

And most of our days would be taken up with looking for food.

Think most people really don't understand how far we have come, it's just a metaphor for them, or something cool to do when camping, roughing it so to speak... Then they go back to their Apartments, cell phones and gaming machines the next day....

Go to some of those Countries in Africa and people still really do live back in the dark ages, I have seen this 1st hand as in I have been there in person and it's NOT a pretty sight.

 

[Bill1170]

I think the greatest practical advance we saw in cutlery materials during the 20th century was stainless steel suitable for blades. It is fascinating to speculate what this current century will bring us.

 

[hardheart]

Kinda lost as to the discussion of technology. What the century will bring is less and less applications for knife use, just like the previous century did. It doesn't matter what you make a knife out of, it is still ridiculously old and inefficient technology. Easy open packages, pop top cans, performing surgery with ultrasound and lasers, fewer and fewer legal means for carrying knives; the future sure ain't about cutting stuff with metal edges, no matter how much vanadium you put in there.

A knife with PM steel is like an oil lamp with a new type of oil, it's still the old way, and CFL bulbs are better. Specialization and transportation advances mean you don't need to cut up your food and cook it, other people do that and sell processed shelf stable or frozen foods, you can get it through drive thru, or you go to a restaurant. Materials and distribution advances mean you don't need to bundle things in twine, you don't need to cut the cardboard when there is a perforated edge or an easy open strip. Technological advances are removing the knife, not making it magically more advanced.

That's why old materials still work. You're still doing the same old things, and to the same old materials.

 

[Nullity]

Kinda lost as to the discussion of technology. What the century will bring is less and less applications for knife use, just like the previous century did. It doesn't matter what you make a knife out of, it is still ridiculously old and inefficient technology. Easy open packages, pop top cans, performing surgery with ultrasound and lasers, fewer and fewer legal means for carrying knives; the future sure ain't about cutting stuff with metal edges, no matter how much vanadium you put in there.

A knife with PM steel is like an oil lamp with a new type of oil, it's still the old way, and CFL bulbs are better. Specialization and transportation advances mean you don't need to cut up your food and cook it, other people do that and sell processed shelf stable or frozen foods, you can get it through drive thru, or you go to a restaurant. Materials and distribution advances mean you don't need to bundle things in twine, you don't need to cut the cardboard when there is a perforated edge or an easy open strip. Technological advances are removing the knife, not making it magically more advanced.

That's why old materials still work. You're still doing the same old things, and to the same old materials.

Interesting points.

What do you EDC as your primary cutting tool?
What sort of cutting tool do you think will be carried in the future? (In an EDC scenario.)

I don't see the metal blade going away any time soon, but I am interested to hear of alternatives for an EDC.

 

[Ankerson]

Kinda lost as to the discussion of technology. What the century will bring is less and less applications for knife use, just like the previous century did. It doesn't matter what you make a knife out of, it is still ridiculously old and inefficient technology. Easy open packages, pop top cans, performing surgery with ultrasound and lasers, fewer and fewer legal means for carrying knives; the future sure ain't about cutting stuff with metal edges, no matter how much vanadium you put in there.

A knife with PM steel is like an oil lamp with a new type of oil, it's still the old way, and CFL bulbs are better. Specialization and transportation advances mean you don't need to cut up your food and cook it, other people do that and sell processed shelf stable or frozen foods, you can get it through drive thru, or you go to a restaurant. Materials and distribution advances mean you don't need to bundle things in twine, you don't need to cut the cardboard when there is a perforated edge or an easy open strip. Technological advances are removing the knife, not making it magically more advanced.

That's why old materials still work. You're still doing the same old things, and to the same old materials.

True, as time goes on it's likely more advancements in the way we live our daily lives things will require less and less hands on and or simpler.

Who knows what will happen in the next 100 years, or 200 years.

 

[hardheart]

Interesting points.

What do you EDC as your primary cutting tool?
What sort of cutting tool do you think will be carried in the future? (In an EDC scenario.)

I don't see the metal blade going away any time soon, but I am interested to hear of alternatives for an EDC.

I still EDC folding knives with metal blades. I use stainless, non-stainless, carbon steels, super alloys, PM, ingot cast, anything. I've had titanium and cobalt blades as well. No ceramics, too much hassle preventing chipping when resharpening, and they still get dull and damaged.

I still use them, and I still do most of my own vehicle and home repairs. There are still many, many uses for cutting tools, but they are in trades that most people don't engage in. Lots of people still cook dinner, but there are more and more pre-packaged, pre-sliced, pre-made meats, vegetables, gravies, etc. Mechanics, repairmen, butchers, etc still have job security, but that's because a lot of people don't handle those tasks on their own. Not many people run their own farm or garden, nor do they hunt. Socially and legally, it is getting harder to have a knife, because the technological advances and urbanization make a knife less necessary.

Knives are still convenient and irreplaceable when needed, but the frequency of need is going down for a large percentage of the first world population.

Anyway, I don't think there will be much of a change at the 'top'. We are already beyond there with steels that have too high of a carbide fraction and too low of a toughness. They can't be taken down very thin, so they make poor cutting tools. It will possibly have to be something other than steel that is the next big advance. And the true 'never needs sharpening' blade might come at a time when nobody is doing much sharpening or cutting anyway.

 

[chiral.grolim]

There are still many, many uses for cutting tools, but they are in trades that most people don't engage in...

...the technological advances and urbanization make a knife less necessary.

Anyway, I don't think there will be much of a change at the 'top'. We are already beyond there with steels that have too high of a carbide fraction and too low of a toughness. They can't be taken down very thin, so they make poor cutting tools. It will possibly have to be something other than steel that is the next big advance. And the true 'never needs sharpening' blade might come at a time when nobody is doing much sharpening or cutting anyway.

Please correct my error - weren't most of the recent advancements in steel (and plastics) driven by industries other than knife production?? 5160 & 52100 were used in automobiles before knives, no? Tool steels, stainless steels, powder steels - the technology employed to generate them was not developed specifically for making knives... it just so happened that the qualities demanded for other applications translated well to cutlery, which provides the manufactures a wider customer base for the product. MANY innovations were developed for a MUCH smaller application than they have eventually been used in... like the internet

 

[hardheart]

I'm not following. In the search for higher wear resistance in blade materials for knives, the steels developed elsewhere have passed the reasonable levels of cost, minimum toughness, and machinability. These are steels developed for other industries. The most highly alloyed powder steels are now mostly only HIP'd and not ground, they are not available as monosteel but in cladding, and this makes them unavailable as sheet/bar stock for most manufacturers. Their appeal for knives in limited in the lack of available means to economically grind and sharpen them, and their performance also leaves much to be desired since they have low ductility and chip readily. Someone would have to make the leap to other methods of manufacture, like MIM or HIP to finished shape. They would have to invest in this for some reason other than satisfying the needs of the bulk of the knife using public, because neither the methods or the materials demanding them are highly sought by the vast majority of cutting applications for knives. Somebody could probably do it, Kershaw gave it one go with 440C in the Offset. But the real push in mass production seems to be the other way, much more ductile and less wear resistant steels blanked out at low cost and high volume. Low cost knives at high volume are the result, and they get the job done for most consumers.

The discussion of advancement was quite focused on wear resistance increases, and steels like 52100 or 5160 weren't designed for it. If we want more toughness, or corrosion resistance, or red hardness, or creep resistance, or dimensional stability, then there are lots of alloys for structural, aerospace, tooling, and more. The aficionado is usually pretty concerned with edge holding at room temperature. And where industries other than cutlery have developed advancements in cutting, they have sometimes gone to carbides, ceramics, lasers, abrasive jet, EDM, etc. Expanding beyond knives doesn't really affect my basic notion that if you want to go 'high tech', that there isn't a ton of room for steels that remain suitable for knives. There's a lot of non-steel items and materials, that's certain.

It's like buying a toddler the most technologically advanced, heavily advertised, highly studied, doctor approved toy on the market, and then the child is entertained by the shipping box it came in. There is the minimum needed to get the job done, and the best effort we can develop to do that same job. Neither is the actual answer to what the individual 'needs', so the questions of economy, feasibility, sustainability, performance, and satisfaction get different answers as well.

 

[Tally-ho]

Lots of people still cook dinner, but there are more and more pre-packaged, pre-sliced, pre-made meats, vegetables, gravies, etc.

Yes it is true and I agree with you.
Now there are razors with replaceable heads with 5 blades, tons of electric razors, shaving foam ready to use in cans and you can shave yourself in less than 5 minutes.
Beside this, 5 years ago we were happy when we had 10 new subscriptions per month on our straight razors (= "coupe-choux" in french) french forum, now it is 10 per week. Sometimes people get bored to buy pre-prepared things ready to use in a minute and to have to pay extra money to have the work done by industrials. They appreciate to descover or re-descover things and to take their time to do them.
My passed away grandfathers wouldn't have believed how much people are actually coming back to straight razors shaving if it was told to them 50 years ago.

You can predict the future by extrapolating current trends, but you cannot tell what the future will really be.

 

[Ankerson]

I'm not following. In the search for higher wear resistance in blade materials for knives, the steels developed elsewhere have passed the reasonable levels of cost, minimum toughness, and machinability. These are steels developed for other industries. The most highly alloyed powder steels are now mostly only HIP'd and not ground, they are not available as monosteel but in cladding, and this makes them unavailable as sheet/bar stock for most manufacturers. Their appeal for knives in limited in the lack of available means to economically grind and sharpen them, and their performance also leaves much to be desired since they have low ductility and chip readily. Someone would have to make the leap to other methods of manufacture, like MIM or HIP to finished shape. They would have to invest in this for some reason other than satisfying the needs of the bulk of the knife using public, because neither the methods or the materials demanding them are highly sought by the vast majority of cutting applications for knives. Somebody could probably do it, Kershaw gave it one go with 440C in the Offset. But the real push in mass production seems to be the other way, much more ductile and less wear resistant steels blanked out at low cost and high volume. Low cost knives at high volume are the result, and they get the job done for most consumers.

The discussion of advancement was quite focused on wear resistance increases, and steels like 52100 or 5160 weren't designed for it. If we want more toughness, or corrosion resistance, or red hardness, or creep resistance, or dimensional stability, then there are lots of alloys for structural, aerospace, tooling, and more. The aficionado is usually pretty concerned with edge holding at room temperature. And where industries other than cutlery have developed advancements in cutting, they have sometimes gone to carbides, ceramics, lasers, abrasive jet, EDM, etc. Expanding beyond knives doesn't really affect my basic notion that if you want to go 'high tech', that there isn't a ton of room for steels that remain suitable for knives. There's a lot of non-steel items and materials, that's certain.

It's like buying a toddler the most technologically advanced, heavily advertised, highly studied, doctor approved toy on the market, and then the child is entertained by the shipping box it came in. There is the minimum needed to get the job done, and the best effort we can develop to do that same job. Neither is the actual answer to what the individual 'needs', so the questions of economy, feasibility, sustainability, performance, and satisfaction get different answers as well.

The mold steels are interesting and were a lot of the high alloyed steels came from that are used in knife blades, examples like M390, S110V, and ELMAX.

CPM 10V is used for commercial and industrial cutters.

The problem is that the higher the Alloy content get the harder it is to roll out into sheets that can be used to make knife blades out of.

And with that the loss of material that adds to the cost of the steel.

It's likely that in the future there will be more advanced methods so the extremely high alloyed steels can be rolled out more efficiently.... Cost effective.

 

[hardheart]

Yep, and in the search for something more wear resistant than S110V, 10V, etc, we are left with alloys that are more than a third to nearly half carbide by volume. People want Mules in REX 121, S125V, 15V, MPL-1, and the other alloys that get mentioned at times, but they should not expect regular production of blades made from them, they shouldn't expect cheap prices, they shouldn't expect to do the same expansive and harsh things with them, and they really, really shouldn't expect them to replace something like S30V. As 'common' as it is to us, it is still pretty exotic and pricey for many people.

When Buck makes all 110s out of S90V, or Case produces all their slipjoints in 10V, then I think we will have entered a time where sales of Fe70 blades could be sustained. Heck, ceramic blades are pretty cheap now, but they aren't beating soft steel. Same issues with toughness and trouble resharpening. Cost is a factor, but so is the same mentality that keeps 10 minute oil change places open. To the general public, knives are considerably more disposable than we view them. Making them harder to resharpen and easier to break just makes them even less desirable. The knife is still a hand tool, and people as a whole are trying to do less manual labor.

 

[Ankerson]

Yep, and in the search for something more wear resistant than S110V, 10V, etc, we are left with alloys that are more than a third to nearly half carbide by volume. People want Mules in REX 121, S125V, 15V, MPL-1, and the other alloys that get mentioned at times, but they should not expect regular production of blades made from them, they shouldn't expect cheap prices, they shouldn't expect to do the same expansive and harsh things with them, and they really, really shouldn't expect them to replace something like S30V. As 'common' as it is to us, it is still pretty exotic and pricey for many people.

When Buck makes all 110s out of S90V, or Case produces all their slipjoints in 10V, then I think we will have entered a time where sales of Fe70 blades could be sustained. Heck, ceramic blades are pretty cheap now, but they aren't beating soft steel. Same issues with toughness and trouble resharpening. Cost is a factor, but so is the same mentality that keeps 10 minute oil change places open. To the general public, knives are considerably more disposable than we view them. Making them harder to resharpen and easier to break just makes them even less desirable. The knife is still a hand tool, and people as a whole are trying to do less manual labor.

It would be interesting to see something in S125V or 15V, but it would be a slicer for sure if it was at full hardness, but even then they wouldn't give that much over S110V or 10V at full hardness taking into count both of them are really usable.

Personally I think we have reached at good as it's going to get in serviceable knife blades with S110V and 10V, they would be expensive though.

You are correct in that S30V is still pretty exotic compared to what most people are used to.

If Case made blades in 10V I would be 1st in line to get one.

 

[killgar]

I couldn't find any post in this thread where anyone suggested that inventing or implementing new knife steels was a bad idea, or anyone who was rejecting all new steels in favor of old ones. I'm sure that every rational person would agree that new might be good, but that doesn't automatically make old bad.

And I can't imagine that anyone using a computer to visit an internet knife forum would be opposed to advancements in technology or the forward progress of human evolution.

Not to mention those of us who drive cars, use microwave ovens, watch tv, have running water, heat, and electricity in our homes, etc, etc.

 

[Ankerson]

I couldn't find any post in this thread where anyone suggested that inventing or implementing new knife steels was a bad idea, or anyone who was rejecting all new steels in favor of old ones. I'm sure that every rational person would agree that new might be good, but that doesn't automatically make old bad.

And I can't imagine that anyone using a computer to visit an internet knife forum would be opposed to advancements in technology or the forward progress of human evolution.

Not to mention those of us who drive cars, use microwave ovens, watch tv, have running water, heat, and electricity in our homes, etc, etc.

Being rational and talking about price as in cheap have nothing to do with each other and if you read the forums enough and I know you have you know exactly what I am talking about.

Sure people want all of their gadgets, but will bulk at the newer steels MOSTLY due to cost, I was just lumping it altogether into one to make a point about advancements and evolution.

That we don't need and Good enough etc talk in general would have kept all of us back in the dark ages if people thought that way in general about all things.