Thinking about a Randall. Are they up to serious use?

HuntBomb said:
We dont see as many user pics of Randall knives because 90% of them are safe queens. And the ones that are used are generally older knives because that's what people bought them for long ago.
I get excited to see new pics of used Randalls because I have searched high and low for pics and user reviews and have damn near seen them all.
I also don't consider opening mail as being "used".
And I agree, the history behind the brand is neat, and O1 steel works just fine, but there are much better knives for the $ if you plan to actually use it.
And I can barely wait a few months for a custom, much less 5 years.
No doubt, they're classic, and beautiful knives, but I cant justify buying one from a user perspective.
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I think the 5 yr wait is too long for people who want a "user" and after market collector's prices prohibit turning a knife into a "user" ... these knives have "morphed" into a "collectable" when they used to be a "tool" ...
 
I think that Randalls are still made the same old way for two reasons. First, that is the way that Bo made them back in the day and, second, that is what the collectors want. Of course, those two reasons may actually be the same in a way. But imagine, if you will, that the guys at Randall got a wild hair up their backside tomorrow and and ordered a bunch of high and low temp salt pots and put a Cashen style heat treat on their O1 blades. Would anyone out there say that they weren't pretty close to state of the art? The potential is there because, IMO, the designs are, for the most part, still quite good even after all these years. If the prices state d the same, a Model 14 at a base price of $385, would still be a pretty good deal considering that a lot of "mid tech" fixed blades that require less work are in that price range.
 
Let me bring this back on track gentlemen. When I referred to hard use, I meant the normal gammit of batoning wood... light chopping and the like. Things I do when in the woods playing around, hunting use or camping. I don't have any interest in chopping cement blocks and cringe when I see the photo's of folks here that do (mostly cause I can't afford the knives they're beating up). The main reason for my concern in their durability in hard use is the tang design. There is no one on this forum that can or will convince me that a Randall tang design is as stong as a full tang knife from another comperable maker - HOWEVER - Randall's are a beautiful piece of knife that as a traditional archer (longbow hunter owning many custom made bows) I can appreciate the attention that goes into making one. What I need to know is that in the event I would ever need to conduct some sort of abusive use in an otherwise odd situation while out and about in the back 40, would this knife fail - or would is succeed? Many, Many replies on my original post, but nothing specific has been mentioned... I intend on using this knife for mostly normal use, cleaning game, camp chores, etc.. But if I need it to out perform.....WILL IT?

I have been searching Randall threads and all over the internet for quite some time - as in, this isn't the first time I've delved into this issue. BUT - Other than folks who have the money to spend, or just simply collectors who want the most expensive knife in the safe, I have yet to hear much imput here (other than from a few folks - and thanks to you) who actually own - and have a Randall that they grab when they head out the door. I love my Busse's and Phillip Pattons, and my Fiddlebacks and Benchmades..... And my Laconico's and my....... It goes on and on. Knives are just knives to me and the cost to get one that catches my eye is of no consequence to me either IF IT CAN TAKE THE HEAT.

The cost of a Randall and the lack of user information is what have kept me from buying one up until now. I don't mind spending the money, (although it is alot of bread for me and would certainly be the most I would have spent on a custom knife to date) but I want to know if it's durable. I spend alot of time in the woods and actually, rarely use my knife. Mostly for cleaning downed game, and for feather sticks or processing damp wood to start a fire, trap making, etc etc... otherwise it's on my hip minding its own business.

Question: Would you take a Randall if you could only take one knife? (doesn't matter which model).
 
Let me also add:

It would be pretty cool to have a Randall 25-6 hanging from my belt while out hunting and playing in the woods. They ARE beautiful and I like their story.Very classic design that sortof matches my woodsman personality. I traded or sold all of my modern camping equipment for waxed canvas and the like. Trying to get to my roots. THat's what prompted my oringinal post.

Your thoughts....
 
My model One worked fine as an all round woods knife. I did'nt use it as a pry bar though. You more or less answer your own question when you say that a stick tang will not be as strong as a full tang. However, if you like the 25-6 then get one and see how it works.

The first issue is likely to be is the edge holding as good as you want .... and you find that out from dressing your first deer ... hardly any damage will happen to the knife and if it loses it's edge a bit too quick for you ... sharpen it and clean it up and sell it.

If edge holding is good enough then carry it and use your head as to what it can accomplish. A camp knife is unlikely to have to do duty as an entry tool ... or similar functions that knives like Busses etc are designed to do ...

Again you have answered your own question when you say that the NMSFNO is a bit heavy ... the Randall will be lighter ... quite a bit lighter I expect as it will be a 6 inch blade compared to an 8 inch blade and will have a stick tang. It should certainly carry a lot better.

Frankly I doubt you can break a Randall in normal heavy use ... they would'nt have the reputation from years ago if you could ...

My guess is that you will enjoy your Randall and you should go for it and report back on how it works for you ...:thumbup:
 
ron mathews said:
Here's a pic of the Model 15 that saved Navy Seal John Gay's life during "Blackhawk Down" and a note from John on the incident:

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If I recall correctly they didn't send him a new knife or even thank him for the story, just offered him a 10% coupon to the next knife.
 
That guy makes some quality videos!

There are some good points in this thread. I think they are probably great knives as I have said before, but it's really no wonder that you don't see more users considering the buying process. It's not a bad thing, it's just going to tend to result in more owners that are collectors.
 
Gator97 said:
Yeah, I read that piece on wikipedia too. However, think about it, what does that really tell you? Just the fact that the knife was highly stainless steel, and probably well packed/oiled too. If Randall used AISI 420 in their knives instead of 440B, then that same knife from the bottom of the ocean would've been even in a better shape, and would require less cleaning. 316 would've required very little and so on.
All you can learn form that fact is that stainless steel knife hasn't been completely destroyed in salt water. So? And if it was Randalls or anyone else's non stainless steel in there for 40 years it'd be totally ruined, but that doesn't mean the knife was bad, simply not stainless.

Same for the whole space thing. Yes, it was honor and achievement/recognition of Randalls to have their knife selected, but they were not the only one and it was 50 years ago. And those knives were not and are not made out of some mystical/hitech materials or poses some specific qualities making them SPACE worthy. Just a survival knife, designed to used on land, not in space. It is no more of a space knife, than any kitchen knife is a diving knife because it was on a submerged submarine.

I guess it wouldn't sound so impressive, just another survival knife :) But if it went to space!!! Then it's something special. Even though that knife was just siting in some compartment all the time, somehow that's supposed to mean the knife is a benchmark for other knives, when in fact today O1 steel at 56HRC is hardly a benchmark for anything. Theoretically it was "rigorously" tested, but nobody is ever asking how it was tested, or what were the test results. And unlike us, NASA might've had their ideas what they wanted from a land survival knife 50 years ago. After all NASA is a space agency and their primary goal was to avoid putting astronauts in the situation when they'd have to use that knife.
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Rhodium/copper coated carbon steel .
http://www.knifetalkforums.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=95156&page=9


1234,,,,:)
 
ron_m80 said:
I suspect, though I have never been to the shop, that each knife is done by hand, and at various steps it either passes or fails, and the failures get sent back down the production schedule for repair. I doubt they would risk their reputation on a bad knife hitting a user and in turn letting the whole world know via the Internet. Do you think a company can maintain a reputation for so long, with a manufactured item like a knife and not have everyone find out they are slacking in a relatively short time?
.
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Oh they are taking risks apparently: This below was my second (the first, a stainless Model 14 which I sent back to Randall, also had a fairly obvious flaw in blade finishing on the left side, the hollow at the front being a series of flats, which Gary Randall said was normal: This means I don't know if the $35 I paid, and the 9 weeks I will wait, will fix anything at all, but lets live in hope). So this here is a Model 18 Carbon with another kind of obvious flaw (the gent on ebay has just bumped up all his prices well over $100, am I ever glad I didn't wait for both!):

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I don't think I have to explain what's wrong on the dead-on photo above (the handle's tube is also off-centered to the blade, but I decided to ignore this, as things are fortunately straight otherwise)... After the experience with the Model 14 having to wait 9 weeks, I sent the 18 to a pro (Razoredgeknives) to have its guard ground down and Cerakoated, since O-1 rusts when you think about it...:

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Below is what the 14 blade looked similar to, but far worse in that the in-between areas were actual flat spots, which they are not here on the 18 I use as an example... This type of finishing "thing" was deemed "normal", and does seem common, being similar in appearance on both knives...:

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As to the light feel of the blade, maybe it is great on some models for some people, but on something as bulky as a Model 18 or 14, and despite the added benefit of a deep hollow grind which allows thin edges on thick stock, the thin 3/16" (and less) blade stock here is just a waste of chopping power for very little weight benefit in my opinion, especially in view of the inexplicable full 1/4" tang... (The Boker Apparo shows how things are done these days, unfortunately by being also as dull as an anvil from the box, but here this particular one has been "Razoredged", and is the sharpest knife I have and probably will ever own, proving thick blades and dullness are not a fatal combination...):

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Despite all these issues, the point grind on my 14 was by far the worst thing about the entire knife, and no question this time the point passed floor inspection with flying colors, since the 18 was better but in the same spirit, which is to say only useable as a "safety" knife to train with and jab your opponent in complete safety, sadly I'm not kidding (the 18 had a thinner point geometry that could be ground to useable status: Not sure the 14 here will ever make it)...:

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The one very good thing about both knives is the unusually thin 0.5-0.6 mm edge bevel top, especially combined with the deep hollow grinds, which is why these knives still have few peers in potential sharpness, or sharpenability... The forged steel performs as well as some of the fancier alloys it seems, but I have yet to experience this myself, given I am still waiting for all the various fixes to achieve bare bones functionality...

As an additional note, I've picked up in my research that the full tang micarta handle on the Model 14 is held only by the single thin walled brass lanyard tube and some epoxy... It appears that this does tend to occasionally loosen under hard use, and frankly I am fairly sure from handling both this and the hollow handle of the Model 18 that the latter is probably by far the sturdier choice if you intend some really hard use (quite the contrary to the usual advice, wouldn't you say?)...: The silver soldering on the 18 is just massive, made with high tensile strength silver (a big factor), and deeply radiused both in the front and back of the guard. The overall impression is that this is incredibly stable and strong...

Another plus of the Model 18 is that the compartment is much more spacious in inner diameter than on most other high quality hollow handle knives [Edit: not compared to the similar thin wall tube 9.5" Neeley SA9, which is similar in diameter/thickness but much deeper)... This larger inner diameter is apparent against the Chris Reeves 8 3/4" models and the Martin/Boker Apparo, because those tend to go way, way overboard in handle strength (the 18 thankfully being designed long before "knife experts" cried foul of hollow handles, and imposed their ill-conceived full tangs as the universal gold standard for "unproductive" weight)...

Inner diameter does counts more than depth in the convenience of what can be put in. Compartment depth on the Randall is much better than on the Boker Apparo as well, at just under 3" vs around 2.5". The Randall compartment is a long, long way from from being as deep as that of the Neeley SA9, which SA9 feels overall surprisingly lightweight considering its size... Be warned the Neeley comes horribly blunt-edged like my Apparo was originally: A heavy reprofile job that is strictly for a pro... Otherwise he neeley SA9 has a slim design that makes it feel surprisingly nimble and unobtrusive, something enhanced by the modest guard compared to the huge Randall guard... Even without the guard, the Randall would have way more mass at the blade handle join, which is just an exposed threaded tang/nut inside the Neeley...

Gaston
 
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Gaston444 said:
I've picked up in my research that the full tang micarta handle on the Model 14 is held only by the single thin walled brass lanyard tube and some epoxy... It appears that this does tend to occasionally loosen under hard use...
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In 30 years of collecting and using Randall knives and actively participating on 3 Randall forums since the late 90s, I have never heard of a 14, 15, or 16's handle coming loose.

What was the source and extent of your research that led to your conclusion? Also, please define "hard use"?
 
This post on Bladesforums, from a knifemaker no less:

ron_m80 said:
I have used my #14 for awhile now. I love it, i will never part with it.

that being said, the double hilt wasn't to my liking on my first #14, so i chopped it off, if you use the hell out of your knife seriously consider the single hilt option. if you are gonna use it for camping and chopping up wood, the false edge plays hell when batoning (but that is using the knife other than it was made for obviously), and the single tube fastened and epoxied handle doesn't like it either, after a few trips out camping and beating it around, the handle started to slide forward on the hilt from its mating location with the spine.

This is a combat model not much more, stab, slash, pry, and trust completely. JMO
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Note I added a comma between "beating it around" and "the handle" in the above quote, because he did not mean to say he beat it on the handle...

As a side note, it would seem that the impact vibrations from batoning -the vibrations within the metal being at a different pitch to the vibrations pitch of the resin and micarta- is what causes the resin to break its bond over large surfaces: When this happens on a Randall Model 14, the only mechanical restraint remaining is the lanyard hole tube, combined with the squareness of the fit to the rear of the guard: When the lanyard hole tube bends backwards, the handle can rotate out downward...

To be fair, I have a Model 14, and I can't imagine the micarta breaking its bond from the tang on what is slighlty flexible and presumably somewhat shock resistant resin glue, at least not without some incredible pounding... On the debit side, the knife is quite thin-bladed and blade-light, and a poor chopper compared to even a shorter 7" knife with a full "real" thickness 1/4" blade: This means batoning as a wood cutting method is actually quite relevant...

I have also seen a picture of a broken Model 18, a second-hand exchange, and I can easily see what happened: From the description of the failure, the knife had a hairline soldering fracture, not visible, and failed on moderate application of force by the new owner... The previous owner of course knew this, having seen this from throwing the knife repeatedly, and offered it as a nice exchange for a Mark I and another knife... About the only way I can imagine the hairline fracture occuring in this way on a Model 18 is throwing it a bunch of times at trees, and the pointy design on some 18s encourages this...: Missed throws induce bad vibrations, and if you do this a hundred times or more, eventually a vibration will find a weak spot...

Batoning is actually less vibration-inducing than throwing, and that is why I would expect a Model 18 to out-last a Model 14 under batoning, but to tell you the truth, I have no doubt in the reliability of either, as long as you don't throw them (something idiots will always do with military-themed knives...)

Gaston
 
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Thanks for the reply. When you said "occasionally", I figured you had more than one example of failure. Here is one example of successful batoning, which off sets your example. ;)

Link
 
I used an model 15 in O1 as a camp knife for many years, very hard, and never had a problem with it. Lots of chopping. I switched to other knives and hawks only because the Randall's performance was so reliable it got boring.
 
Too expensive, too difficult to get ahold of, and too collectable to be "users" for me.

They are nice knives, but IMHO, there are better "user" brands, even within the same price point....than a Randall.

I say this because some of these brands offer no questions asked, you break it - we replace it, warranties. If I'm going to use an expensive knife in the woods and beat on it.....I'm going to buy one that I can get fixed or replaced for no cost over one where every time it hits wood, it loses value.

That doesn't really do much for me in the collectable arena, but it sure does promise me that my investment in tools will be protected in case I break it.

Now, I say this because I can't go and drop an average of $300/month on knives. I know some can, I don't beget them for it (wish I could). For me, that means that the stuff I buy and use....I don't want to buy it again until I wear it out. Having that little bit of extra warranty lets me be comfortable beating on a tool that I'd otherwise have never purchased if said warranty didn't exist. Just a little extra piece of mind.
 
A few years back, some knut in Italy really put his Randall through the paces. I think everyone here was very impressed including Jerry Busse.
Get a Randall knife? Yep.
rolf
 
I got a Randall Model One when I was getting ready for 'Nam. I was willing to bet my life on it and still am. They make great knives. Of course there will be an occasional "rough spot", etc. as they are still hand hammered. I've had several Randalls over the years, none disappointed. Sold or traded all but my first #1. Good knives.
LLAP
Rich
 
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