Thoughts on buying Chinese knives

I think Chinese products will have no choice but the get better, just as American companies will almost be forced to outsource labor to China to compete. Most Americans simply do not care where things are made. I don't buy knives made in China. I try not to buy anything made in China. It's not because I hate the Chinese people, I hate Communism and the attitude the Chinese government takes toward America. I thank companies that maintain their flagship lines as made in America.
 
i have several knives made in china, and i like them all. i read in Blade magazine an artical about knives made in china and taiwan and other asian countries. the name brands they talked about include Kershaw and CRKT. the talked about the work that goes into the knives and the process and such. to make this short, the verdict was the china made knives were quite good.

another point i want to make is, u do realize how much stuff u have that is made in china that you use every day right? why does it have to be diferent for knives? specially when they are good knives like kershaw?
 
Well said Sal, I do like your products but hope companies will realise that the loyal knife buyers dont mind paying a little more.

Chinese man is also correct. The quality of goods in china is really not in question anymore. There was a time that if you wanted good steel products made in China you had to import steel killing the cheap production. It used to be the same for clothing. China has in all areas ramped up its production capabilities and this is one of the biggest threats imo. The fact is that certain things would need to be made in china at this point. Why? Because of the paradigm shift they have created in the quality manufacturing the rest of the world is now behind them. You simply cannot find a factry in the U.S. for the most part that can match them on new production methods. This is becuase we stopped bying well made american goods and therefore we dont have the industrial base we should. The fact that China is so far advanced in the techniques does not help the citizens of there country however.

Yes it is true that not all quality products come from the U.S. But the countries you mentioned are not thinly vieled dictatorships. I can wear a knife made in the U.S, Japan, Italy or Germany without thinking I am supporting a life without freedom for millions. Also I will take the U.S. made one over the others, but if I was born in Japan I would probably think JApans knives were my best bet.

Yes offsetlover, we cannot avoid chinese made goods all together. That doesnt mean we cant support our own country whenever possible, or at least a country we can agree with ideoligicaly.
 
BigJimSlade said:
but if I was born in Japan I would probably think JApans knives were my best bet.
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I was actually born here in Washington State, thus making me a Chinese American. I do not think China made knives are the best by any means. Im just saying that in general, do not mock somthing that is not made in the US. China has come a LONG way from where it was say 10-20 years ago. I would not be amazed if China will become the new "Made In Japan" standard within the next 20 years or so. Like Sal has mentioned, it helps production by cutting down the cost.
 
Chinese man said:
I was actually born here in Washington State, thus making me a Chinese American. I do not think China made knives are the best by any means. Im just saying that in general, do not mock somthing that is not made in the US. China has come a LONG way from where it was say 10-20 years ago. I would not be amazed if China will become the new "Made In Japan" standard within the next 20 years or so. Like Sal has mentioned, it helps production by cutting down the cost.
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I didnt mean that one should prefer a knife from there country of birth, only that my fierce loyalty would probably extend to whatever country I was born in. I agree 100% about chinas abilities, I just wish they would give the people more say in things.

I am a huge fan of Chinese culture and owned a tea shop in my youth, but dont think that the world rushing to embrace china as is will be good for the people there. China has proven that a comunist government can get along with the west in business terms but I think that they have found the key to keeping there people peacfully satsified without ever letting them out from under tight government control. But I digress... blah blah.
 
BigJimSlade said:
Yes offsetlover, we cannot avoid chinese made goods all together. That doesnt mean we cant support our own country whenever possible, or at least a country we can agree with ideoligicaly.
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Buying the best value for your money, regardless of country of origin, does support your country. Doing so helps you thrive, and the more you thrive, the more you support our country (like it or not).

This is becuase we stopped bying well made american goods and therefore we dont have the industrial base we should.
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Wrong. The US has exactly the industrial base it "should". When a factory moves offshore, it usually happens because it should happen. When manufacturing those widgets in the US adds no value, there is little reason to keep it here. This is especially true with much of the cutlery industry. Making knives is a very mature low technology. Even the most backward societies can do it successfully. In this day and age when Americans are more educated than ever before, it's a waste of resources employing people at such things when their skills are better utilized in other fields. The really neat thing is that nobody actually directs this. The free market decides itself what skills it needs, and people jump in to fill the need. When someone does try to guide markets (governments, unions, special interest consumer groups), the result is always inefficiencies, only providing more incentive to move away.

Outside of boutique makers or factories that are modern/smart enough to compete, I see little reason why knife production (or anything else for that matter) should remain in the US.
 
shecky said:
Buying the best value for your money, regardless of country of origin, does support your country. Doing so helps you thrive, and the more you thrive, the more you support our country (like it or not).



Wrong. The US has exactly the industrial base it "should". When a factory moves offshore, it usually happens because it should happen. When manufacturing those widgets in the US adds no value, there is little reason to keep it here. This is especially true with much of the cutlery industry. Making knives is a very mature low technology. Even the most backward societies can do it successfully. In this day and age when Americans are more educated than ever before, it's a waste of resources employing people at such things when their skills are better utilized in other fields. The really neat thing is that nobody actually directs this. The free market decides itself what skills it needs, and people jump in to fill the need. When someone does try to guide markets (governments, unions, special interest consumer groups), the result is always inefficiencies, only providing more incentive to move away.

Outside of boutique makers or factories that are modern/smart enough to compete, I see little reason why knife production (or anything else for that matter) should remain in the US.
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Low tech?? Computer aided machines to cut blanks, high speed machinery to mass produce blades, high tech steel used in knives today. I think not. Not everyone has skills, nor are enough high end jobs for every american. I am college edumacated :D, but perfer to work in a highly skill field of HVAC. Nothing bets the hot sun of phoenix during Aug. I do agree with free market and as long as we continue to buy chinese good, China will continue to make more product.
 
shecky said:
Buying the best value for your money, regardless of country of origin, does support your country. Doing so helps you thrive, and the more you thrive, the more you support our country (like it or not).



Wrong. The US has exactly the industrial base it "should". When a factory moves offshore, it usually happens because it should happen. When manufacturing those widgets in the US adds no value, there is little reason to keep it here. This is especially true with much of the cutlery industry. Making knives is a very mature low technology. Even the most backward societies can do it successfully. In this day and age when Americans are more educated than ever before, it's a waste of resources employing people at such things when their skills are better utilized in other fields. The really neat thing is that nobody actually directs this. The free market decides itself what skills it needs, and people jump in to fill the need. When someone does try to guide markets (governments, unions, special interest consumer groups), the result is always inefficiencies, only providing more incentive to move away.

Outside of boutique makers or factories that are modern/smart enough to compete, I see little reason why knife production (or anything else for that matter) should remain in the US.
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You obviously have a shallow view of world economics. Other coutries flourishing does not help us, it helps big business and its bottom line. The average American has suffered from the loss of average jobs in middle america . When you buy the cheapest made foriegn goods you hurt your own coutry in several ways. first you tell every American based company that by going overseas they wil win your business with cheap prices.

Please explain how not having jobs in our country is good? I am shure that if they brought foriegn labor into the country and replaced you that you would not like it. How does firing an american and paying someone in another coutry help the U.S.? Because you have a nicer stereo for $300 than you could have gotten before?

You are obviously ignorant to the fact that there is no such thing as a country where everyone has a high level technology job. This is the ideal you seem to be spewing forth. You blattantly ignore that the same jobs are going overseas. Maybe you missed Halley Burton moving overseas after taking double digit billions from the american public that your children will be paying off into there old age. Thats good for america how? It's not good enough to say it, some actuall reason would be nice.

The fact is this used to be a great country that had enough money to have farmers, steel workers and doctors all be employed here in this country. Carpenters used to be able to do real woerk intsead of having to dumb down there skills to sell cheap. I somehow doubt you have ever seen a whole city cease to exist because of overseas competition. Maybe you think it good that those families had to move to an inner city with no money to fend for themselves. Maybe thats the good for America part. I bet the Camillus empolyees wondering if there pension are safe dont think its good for America.

The world in wich you envision has the same outcome it is having now. Everyday in this country the middle class is shrinking. Dont believe me? Do a little research before you condone global marketplaces that eschew America for goods. The world in wich the only jobs in america are the best and the worst only hurts us all. The value in making widgets in the U.S. is that if an informed consumer (who works at the widget factory earning a real living since the product isnt sold for pennies) keeps the money in the U.S.. Supporting local business is always good for the economy. If you understood economincs as well as you pretend you would know this.

I manufactured goods in over 6 countries and domestic. We sold the domestic for more and it boosted the economy here. The money we payed to the production companies went to the workers who live here. The fabric we bought was made in L.A and harvested in the south, and the money we spent on it went back into the U.S. economy. The stores who bought our products gave us money and kept it in the U.S. economy. The consumer who bought the goods from the retailer supported everyone I have mentioned in this chain. So this is bad for our Country since the goods cost more? Good luck tryin to deffend that one. I got out of the business becuase I did not like overseas manufacturing.

Company B buys fabric from india, money leaves teh U.S. and does not return anytime soon if ever as India doesnt buy much from the U.S. Sends the fabric to china and pays them with money that will never return to the U.S. (No China doesnt import a bunch of stuff from us). Since the company is not U.S. owned the profits from the sale also go overseas. Now please, enlighten me, whats good about this for the U.S.? Because it forces people into new fields? Ones that could be sent overseas in a few years?

Tech Suport used to be a U.S. job for people with a good intellect or education in computers, now its gone and those jobs and the millions of dollars they used to get payed now go to India. Whats good about that for our country? Supply and demmand dont inshure you jobs or an economy. The children of this country need a future with choices, not a narrow field of available jobs.
 
BigJimSlade said:
You obviously have a shallow view of world economics. Other coutries flourishing does not help us, it helps big business and its bottom line. The average American has suffered from the loss of average jobs in middle america . When you buy the cheapest made foriegn goods you hurt your own coutry in several ways. first you tell every American based company that by going overseas they wil win your business with cheap prices.

Please explain how not having jobs in our country is good? I am shure that if they brought foriegn labor into the country and replaced you that you would not like it. How does firing an american and paying someone in another coutry help the U.S.? Because you have a nicer stereo for $300 than you could have gotten before?

You are obviously ignorant to the fact that there is no such thing as a country where everyone has a high level technology job. This is the ideal you seem to be spewing forth. You blattantly ignore that the same jobs are going overseas. Maybe you missed Halley Burton moving overseas after taking double digit billions from the american public that your children will be paying off into there old age. Thats good for america how? It's not good enough to say it, some actuall reason would be nice.

The fact is this used to be a great country that had enough money to have farmers, steel workers and doctors all be employed here in this country. Carpenters used to be able to do real woerk intsead of having to dumb down there skills to sell cheap. I somehow doubt you have ever seen a whole city cease to exist because of overseas competition. Maybe you think it good that those families had to move to an inner city with no money to fend for themselves. Maybe thats the good for America part. I bet the Camillus empolyees wondering if there pension are safe dont think its good for America.

The world in wich you envision has the same outcome it is having now. Everyday in this country the middle class is shrinking. Dont believe me? Do a little research before you condone global marketplaces that eschew America for goods. The world in wich the only jobs in america are the best and the worst only hurts us all. The value in making widgets in the U.S. is that if an informed consumer (who works at the widget factory earning a real living since the product isnt sold for pennies) keeps the money in the U.S.. Supporting local business is always good for the economy. If you understood economincs as well as you pretend you would know this.

I manufactured goods in over 6 countries and domestic. We sold the domestic for more and it boosted the economy here. The money we payed to the production companies went to the workers who live here. The fabric we bought was made in L.A and harvested in the south, and the money we spent on it went back into the U.S. economy. The stores who bought our products gave us money and kept it in the U.S. economy. The consumer who bought the goods from the retailer supported everyone I have mentioned in this chain. So this is bad for our Country since the goods cost more? Good luck tryin to deffend that one.

Company B buys fabric from india, money leaves teh U.S. and does not return anytime soon if ever as India doesnt buy much from the U.S. Sends the fabric to china and pays them with money that will never return to the U.S. (No China doesnt import a bunch of stuff from us). Since the company is not U.S. owned the profits from the sale also go overseas. Now please, enlighten me, whats good about this for the U.S.? Because it forces people into new fields? Ones that could be sent overseas in a few years?

Tech Suport used to be a U.S. job for people with a good intellect or education in computers, now its gone and those jobs and the millions of dollars they used to get payed now go to India. Whats good about that for our country? Supply and demmand dont inshure you jobs or an economy. The children of this country need a future with choices, not a narrow field of available jobs.
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Well stated!! Again profit and to please shareholder more important than keeping America strong, buy American when you can!
 
wolfmann601 said:
remember Kent State???

I guess buying American is out now, huh?
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An isolated incedent not condoned by the whole of the country and not even our government. Overzelous confrontations between the cops/national guard and the citizens in hard times are unfortunate to say the least. But hardley ordering troops to go kill anyone who does not leave and maintaining firing squads to get rid of the people who break you rules without trial or say. I would say that power abuse exists in all of humanity. I am proud to live in a country that tries to combat it, although no ideal is achievable. The fact is that you can come here and say that, the chinese cannot. They canot even own a book that disagrees with there government or hear a song that is inapropraite. I'd say buying U.S. is back in. I have never tried to pretend we or any other democracy was perfect, but freedom is kinda nice.
 
I'm a PRC citizen and would like to share some points of mine.

1. about China-USA trade. At present, the cheap products made in China are indispensable to most American people's daily lives and the American economy. Fortunately, the policy makers in the American government are not so stupid as to truly boycott Chinese cheap products;

2. about human rights. The PR China government did lots of bad things. Sometimes I'm very sick of them. But the country has been making progress in all aspects during the last 30 years and will be doing that. The development of such a huge country needs time. Keep in mind that even USA, the flagship of Western democracy, had records of Bonus March (1932), Kent State University Shootings (1970), and centuries' racial segregation (theoretically ended in 1950's), after it had established the democrat system for centuries;

3. about socialism/communism. So many people hate Marxism. But maybe they don't know socialism did quite well in Sweden. http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman33.html. China is developing its own socialism, which is supposed by many people to lead to democracy (not American way of democracy though);

4. what makes a country USA's friend? China cannot afford to be USA's friend. Why? Because USA needs an enemy after USSR was subverted thanks to the continuous efforts of USA. The trend of demonizing China simply feeds that need.

Knowing deeply that my opinions will be overwhelmed by racial ones in the name of patriotism and human rights, I adventure to post them. Let's see...
 
BigJimSlade said:
There was a disgusting article in Blade this month with Sal and the editor telling me to shut up about china and get used to it. That article marked my last spyderco purchase. This is a country that is the biggest violator of human rights on the planet. They ran over there own children with tanks for speaking there mind. I do not have to get used to chinese made knives and I will never buy them. China may have cleaned up its image in the factories to fool business men, bu tthe country hasnt changed. They would kill half the populace to ramain comunist just as they did when Moa came to power. The slick veneer of the latest place to make goods makes me sick. Mark my words in a few years the majority of knives form these brands will be made in China and only a few models will be made in the U.S. if any. I dont care if you think The poeple of China are not to be held responsible for the government actions, because when you manufacture in that country you tell them that the way they do business is OK with the rest of the world. We send our armed forces to bring freedom from opression then pay china to opress its people and buy up its communist made goods. How bout Alqueda manufacture, I bet its dirt cheap in those holes.

CHINESE KNIVES ARE CHEAP BECAUSE 99% OF THE POPULACE IS CONTROLLED BY 1% OF THE PEOPLE! If you are ok with that then why save the Iraqis, Viatnamese or koreans from the same fate as the chinese workers have to suffer.
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I respect the sentiment to support American manufacturing, but there is a lot wrong with what you said here especially the inflammatory comments towards the end.

First off, how much of the wealth of this nation is controlled by the top 5%? Is it a fair distribution? We might have more parity than China, but our weath gap is getting bigger as we speak and it has been spiraling in recent years. Or look at it this way, what percentage of the world's wealth does America control? Am I supposed to believe that we are liberating the world by hoarding the wealth and resources of the entire planet?

Regarding our militaristic altruism: We only managed to save half of Korea, woops, we abandoned the Vietnamese and I don't think many Iraqis would agree that America has 'saved' them just yet. Furthermore, if you believe we went into Iraq to liberate the people, well then, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you too. This is not to say that our military men and women aren't fighting for exactly that, but this war wasn't set into motion because our government was worried about all of the poor Shiites and the Kurds living in oppression under Saddam. It would be nice if it were true, but that is just a big fat lie.

Buying American is great, when possible, but the biggest motivation for China to act the way it does is the fact that our government continues to let them off the hook on trade policy. For starters, how about demanding a real currency valuation? That would cut their exports significantly, thereby supporting AMERICAN MANUFACTURING. We won't push them...why? Because we need the consumption and a huge spike in the Yuan vs the dollar would probably cause them (and others) to dump a lot of our T-Bills. How about demanding worker's rights? Well maybe we could've tried using our leverage around the time they were begging us to join the WTO, but nope, we just let pull up a seat at the table free of charge. That's why I believe the focus should be at home with OUR GOVERNMENT. There are plenty of ways we could pressure China to institue reforms, but our leaders turn a blind eye because it's good for business.

If you look at India and China right now, they are going through a period of rapid growth similar to the industrial revolution in our own country. If you study the history of the US during those days you will see how shitty the average worker had it and how cheap life was, just like it is in China today. Things only changed in this country when the riots and worker rebellions of the Progressive Era kicked off and the unions started to gain strength. China could get there faster if we helped prod them along.

What about worker oppression in our own country...today? Just because a shirt says "made in the USA" doesn't mean whoever made it has a decent salary, benefits and a 401K...hell making minimum wage for a lot of them would be pushing it. Take a tour of the garment district in NYC. Those workers are a part of the American manufacturing sector and many of them get treated with about the same dignity as those in China or Indonesia. Who are the workers that harvest all of the fruits and vegetables in this country and what about their right to earn a decent living?

I love this country, but lets not mischaracterize this as a simple clash between good and evil. That only promotes ignorance. I'm all for supporting America and American products, but to equate buying Chinese products with supporting evil, or al-Qaeda is inflammatory and I personally find the comparison disgusting. If you look closely enough, all governments are pretty indifferent to the suffering of the oppressed...the powerful always seem to have a much louder voice.

There is nothing wrong with choosing to buy a product with "Made in the USA" on it, but how many times are you actually given a choice these days? Does everyone here drive a GM or Ford or boycott Dell? If the policies of this nation are improved, that will have much bigger effect than all of the BUY AMERICAN movements under the sun. If you want to make a stand please consider writing your representatives in the Congress. They do not spend sleepless nights worring about the oppressed in ANY COUNTRY, but they do fear losing their reelection bids.
 
Yuchang, thanks for a different view. All good points, but solialism doesn't work either. I am thinking high taxes to run all those gov't programs. The theory of pure cummunism is great. everybody gets a fair share, but in reality it does not work for one reason, someone has to be in power. America is not a true democracy, it a republic. Again it has it flaws, but it does work. If I had to choose which type of gov't to live in, hands down, on the republic form of gov't. Yes products are getting better from China, but still I rather help a fellow American, by buying a product which is made in the US.
 
wolfmann601 said:
remember Kent State???

I guess buying American is out now, huh?
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Thank you so much, I didn't think anyone was ever gonna call him on that. I've been waiting. I would have done it but I just didn't feel comfortable citing something that happened before I was born.

Here's what I think on the whole thing. This world that we live in is huge. It's an amazing place with a massive diversity of people and philosophies. Do we all have to be Democratic Capitalists to be able to get along. China is the most populous nation in the world. Is it impossible for the people of that country to take their futures in their own hands and overthrow the government if they are unhappy with it. I think we did that to obtain our freedom at one point in our history. I don't believe that it is the USAs responsibility to tell the rest of the world how they should live their lives. There are atrocities in every country of the world at one time or another. Should we NEVER buy another German product because of the Holocaust. Should we avoid British products forever because they treated our colonies harshly. Should we never trad with France because Napoleon tried to take over most of Europe. If we, the members of the human race on the planet Earth, ever want to live in peace with each other we have to be able to put aside our differences (whether it be race, religion, political philosophy, etc.) and work together for our future. I don't agree with the ideology governing China necessarily but I don't have a problem buying products made by their workers. I'd say the same about any other country's products too.
 
MaxFisher said:
Should we avoid British products forever because they treated our colonies harshly.
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The British colonised the USA in 1620, do you feel hard done by?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower

Does everyone realise this thread started in February 2002? Times change.

Incidentally, my keyboard was made in Germany. For many of you, you will find your computer motherboard was made in China, or Korea. Your access to the Internet brought to you by the communist regime. It all comes down to price and technology.
 
Sleepyhead, I agree 100% that our own foriegn policy is to blame for much of our problems. Buying chinese made goods does further this dammage and not help it imo. I also do not believe that the U.S. needs or should gallavant around the globe speading democracy through force or fighting other countries battles for them. But the fact remains we are supposedely in a war over the value of freedom. I am trying to point out a huge hipocracy in this country when we comdemn one nation for such treament of its citizens and buy happily from another. Also the American companies I worked with were either mom and pop or payed there people well and offered benifits. There would be little point in paying more for american made goods if some part of the money did not go to paying higher wages than china. I agree that the american worker isnt always rewarded in proportion to the companies profits from his work but we have many securities others can only dream of. MAny laborers in the past suffered for this, but again our government and the companies worked it out with the people instead of using tanks.

Max Fisher I felt I answered the Ken State issue well. If not maybe you could poitn out were we are in disagreement. If you are saying that if the Nazi party was still in power in Germany we would be buying from them I think you are sorly mistaken. In China the government responsible for the horrible atrocities is still in power. You are not buying products from chinas workers, you are buying them from there government. Thats how comunism works, it all belongs to the government, they give the people what they feel like. Also while we broke our ties with brittain they are not a human rights violator recently unless you count the disarming of there peoples. Would you have me believe that because our country has commited wrongs that we should not be upset about things like bosnian rape camps? To me what a governmetn is actively doing is important, if they have made mistakes in the past then they are the same as all governments and people.

Uchang, I do not believe a country that bans books, radioo television and speach that disagrees with it as a Democracy of any kind, American or not. When your country stop forfcing people into there view points instead of representing the views of all its people, even if they are so vile ad to disagree with chairman Moa, I will concede it is a democracy. Have they disasembeled the firing squads or stopped billing people for the executions? If China wants to be my friend that would be a good start. If the government wished so this webiste would be illegal to acess in China, again not a democracy in any way shape or form imo.
 
BigJimSlade said:
Sleepyhead, I agree 100% that our own foriegn policy is to blame for much of our problems. Buying chinese made goods does further this dammage and not help it imo. I also do not believe that the U.S. needs or should gallavant around the globe speading democracy through force or fighting other countries battles for them. But the fact remains we are supposedely in a war over the value of freedom. I am trying to point out a huge hipocracy in this country when we comdemn one nation for such treament of its citizens and buy happily from another. Also the American companies I worked with were either mom and pop or payed there people well and offered benifits. There would be little point in paying more for american made goods if some part of the money did not go to paying higher wages than china. I agree that the american worker isnt always rewarded in proportion to the companies profits from his work but we have many securities others can only dream of. MAny laborers in the past suffered for this, but again our government and the companies worked it out with the people instead of using tanks.
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Well, you avoided most of my comments about the inflammatory remarks you made, but I appreciate your response. I take exception to the statement, "MAny laborers in the past suffered for this, but again our government and the companies worked it out with the people instead of using tanks." If you look at the history of this country and the birth of labor unions, you will see that it was very violent and ugly struggle for workers' rights. Both comanies AND the government in this country were responsible for taking the lives of people who demanded a living wage and better work conditions. You talk about people glossing over the human rights situation in China. Now you are guilty of glossing over our own history.

That is why I don't feel the good v. evil debate is worthwhile. It is easy to romanticize the past or the motives behind our current actions, but doing so only serves to confuse the issue. Sure everyone can pile on the Nazis now, but a lot of that is due to the benefit of hindsight and the fact that we kicked their ass. No one likes to bring up the killing fields because we didn't do shit to stop it. Or Darfur...if we are so concerned about the values we claim to uphold why are we so conspicuously absent over there? For the most part it's not a black and white world...things usually just come around in varying shades of grey and no government gets to wear a white dress at the altar.
 
Super Truck,
Thanks for saying all my points are good. I don't believe that pure communism is feasible, either. But I do believe reformed socialist regime is the best choice for China at present. On one hand, the government is doing very well; on the other hand, revolution is so expensive that our nation cannot afford another one any more.
I admire your thought of helping a fellow American by buying American products, because I do likewise to my people. For many American, however, having the access to cheap products made in China helps them even more, because thus they can have a higher living standard.
 
BigJimSlade,

Obviously you're using double standards.

Several things that you said about China are just biased and false, but you called them facts. FACT is not a cheap word to abuse if you actually don't know something.

Maybe you have never pretended that your democracy is perfect, but you did pretend to know well about a country which you actually don't at all.

-------------------------------------------- Quoted from BigJimSlade's post
An isolated incedent not condoned by the whole of the country and not even our government... The fact is that you can come here and say that, the chinese cannot. They canot even own a book that disagrees with there government or hear a song that is inapropraite... I have never tried to pretend we or any other democracy was perfect, but freedom is kinda nice.
--------------------------------------------
 
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