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Thoughts on Coyotes
- Thread starter milani74
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Game management is a difficult task but I can't agree that we should simply give up. For example, where I hunt elk/deer in Montana the scientists who work for the state spend a lot of time studying the size of the elk herds in various areas and the carrying capacity of that land. They adjust the allowable take of game animals in an effort to maintain a sustainable herd without overpopulation. I'd prefer someone put some study and thought into the process rather than just see what happens.
DancesWithKnives
DancesWithKnives
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Hello Mick,
The info you provided is very interesting. My thoughts are these, I apologize in advance for the length!
-What is the human capacity to not exceed culling numbers? When word spreads on an 'open season', it spreads both fast and slow. Going too far is very easy with our species, especially with the pre-existing forms of culling already instated: reduction of natural prey, environment, and restricting their spread through urban sprawl. the predominance of coyote is an indicator to a problem, is it wise to eliminate the them without addressing the symptoms?
-do you think it would be wiser to aim for more plant and animal diversity, both bigger and smaller than coyotes to formulate a better control strategy, rather than band-aid the situation by only killing them?
As a botanist and farmer, I have experience with and have taught Integrated Pest Management (IPM), mimicking healthy systems as control models. A healthy control strategy is a triangle: Biological Control (animal and plant diversity, guard dogs, natural prey/predators, etc.), Cultural Control (what we do essentially: electric fences, etc.), and finally, AS A LAST MEANS IF ALL ELSE FAILS: Chemical Control (self-explanatory; maybe in this case, gunpowder
)...
What this aims for is the knowledge that utilizing only one form or method on a large scale does not work in the long term, let alone short term. You must address the whole system.
I was always taught: 'You don't fully know an animal until you know what it eats.' It is no wonder the eating habits of animal species bordering urban areas are in a state of tumult. This tells us the condition of the species.
I believe if we really wanted to address the issue, we would need to focus on the health of their habitat, the diversity of plants and thus prey, water sources, etc. (Biological control)
What is happening to the foxes in the areas where the coyotes frequent? What/where is the competition? Wolves, cougars, etc.? There is a reason why a goat will have 3 babies but have only two udders. Coyotes breed well, but so do many other species, turkey for example. What is odd is the natural death rate. Who hates turkey out there? The larger predominant species are missing. Have we replaced them in our own time by eliminating all the 'scary' ones? Maybe, but that's a whole lotta wasted meat that has potential scat-fertilizer properties. Imagine all that digested coyote and turkey meat sh*t and bone meal scattered throughout the forest, supplying Nitrogen! Why are they not following natural loops of animal sign?
At the same time we address our fences, etc. Are they using fenced, movable chicken tractors? A fully enclosed chicken coop? Are there guard animals? Electric fences? Holes in the fence? Too low of a fence? Are there animal corridors for them to travel through? All of these routes must be addressed. A faulty enclosing system should not be the cause to a dead coyote. Breaking up large plots into smaller enclosed areas for domestic pets as safety either in the night or day. Even my dogs tried to massacre the sheep before we got the portable solar-powered electric fence, hell it was expected. (Cultural Control)
If all these aspects have been addressed, and the perimeter enclosed, but the hordes keep pouring in, threatening animals, family, etc. I won't condone the occasional culling. But why not kill the mother's, or the sickly ones, or the old ones? Animal thinning should also be as harvesting apples, no? Might as well help build up the breed bloodlines, right? That is why many native tribes left the beautiful strapping buck alone. They understood genetics.
I understand that the conditions in some areas are so upside-down, that an initial culling may be a jump start on curbing the issue, but unless the biological aspect is addressed, it'll be an issue for a long time until a very drastic action is taken....
(The full DDT spraying in homes, schools, buildings in Africa as a mosquito/malaria cure rather than investigation into closed water systems and BT use, comes to mind...)
BTW on another note, I am also not for leaving nature to sort it out and do nothing. Humans have always been an element. We have caused the problem and conditions for more problems. We could only step out if we were to do so completely, for a long time until the whole system cleans itself, water sources, plant diversity, etc. Our own existence alone has an effect. We have affected it on all fronts. there is plenty of work for us to do to make it right. the problem is we're detached and don't know what's right. I say, when in doubt, mimic nature's settings, bio-mimcry is the method since the dawn of man.
Also, to say that humans have only done harm so do nothing leads to a cop-out of responsibility IMO. The pre-Columbian native California peoples lived here for 20,000 yrs. +. the whole Pacific coast was a tended garden. Forests of food and diversity. Every account of the pioneers in California attests to this, but they assumed it was just naturally occuring, as if by chance. An amazing book called 1491, by Charles Mann, gives a very vivid picture as to how well man help propagate and accelerate natural cycles until Columbus landed. The Amazon Rainforest was not by chance, it was tended. The Australian indigenous cultures, for 40,000+ yrs.! Changes our understanding of hunter/gatherer for sure. No, no, we've only recently in the long line of time functioned so poorly and devastatingly. An in that short time we've done a whole lot.
The info you provided is very interesting. My thoughts are these, I apologize in advance for the length!
-What is the human capacity to not exceed culling numbers? When word spreads on an 'open season', it spreads both fast and slow. Going too far is very easy with our species, especially with the pre-existing forms of culling already instated: reduction of natural prey, environment, and restricting their spread through urban sprawl. the predominance of coyote is an indicator to a problem, is it wise to eliminate the them without addressing the symptoms?
-do you think it would be wiser to aim for more plant and animal diversity, both bigger and smaller than coyotes to formulate a better control strategy, rather than band-aid the situation by only killing them?
As a botanist and farmer, I have experience with and have taught Integrated Pest Management (IPM), mimicking healthy systems as control models. A healthy control strategy is a triangle: Biological Control (animal and plant diversity, guard dogs, natural prey/predators, etc.), Cultural Control (what we do essentially: electric fences, etc.), and finally, AS A LAST MEANS IF ALL ELSE FAILS: Chemical Control (self-explanatory; maybe in this case, gunpowder
)...What this aims for is the knowledge that utilizing only one form or method on a large scale does not work in the long term, let alone short term. You must address the whole system.
I was always taught: 'You don't fully know an animal until you know what it eats.' It is no wonder the eating habits of animal species bordering urban areas are in a state of tumult. This tells us the condition of the species.
I believe if we really wanted to address the issue, we would need to focus on the health of their habitat, the diversity of plants and thus prey, water sources, etc. (Biological control)
What is happening to the foxes in the areas where the coyotes frequent? What/where is the competition? Wolves, cougars, etc.? There is a reason why a goat will have 3 babies but have only two udders. Coyotes breed well, but so do many other species, turkey for example. What is odd is the natural death rate. Who hates turkey out there? The larger predominant species are missing. Have we replaced them in our own time by eliminating all the 'scary' ones? Maybe, but that's a whole lotta wasted meat that has potential scat-fertilizer properties. Imagine all that digested coyote and turkey meat sh*t and bone meal scattered throughout the forest, supplying Nitrogen! Why are they not following natural loops of animal sign?
At the same time we address our fences, etc. Are they using fenced, movable chicken tractors? A fully enclosed chicken coop? Are there guard animals? Electric fences? Holes in the fence? Too low of a fence? Are there animal corridors for them to travel through? All of these routes must be addressed. A faulty enclosing system should not be the cause to a dead coyote. Breaking up large plots into smaller enclosed areas for domestic pets as safety either in the night or day. Even my dogs tried to massacre the sheep before we got the portable solar-powered electric fence, hell it was expected. (Cultural Control)
If all these aspects have been addressed, and the perimeter enclosed, but the hordes keep pouring in, threatening animals, family, etc. I won't condone the occasional culling. But why not kill the mother's, or the sickly ones, or the old ones? Animal thinning should also be as harvesting apples, no? Might as well help build up the breed bloodlines, right? That is why many native tribes left the beautiful strapping buck alone. They understood genetics.
I understand that the conditions in some areas are so upside-down, that an initial culling may be a jump start on curbing the issue, but unless the biological aspect is addressed, it'll be an issue for a long time until a very drastic action is taken....
(The full DDT spraying in homes, schools, buildings in Africa as a mosquito/malaria cure rather than investigation into closed water systems and BT use, comes to mind...)
BTW on another note, I am also not for leaving nature to sort it out and do nothing. Humans have always been an element. We have caused the problem and conditions for more problems. We could only step out if we were to do so completely, for a long time until the whole system cleans itself, water sources, plant diversity, etc. Our own existence alone has an effect. We have affected it on all fronts. there is plenty of work for us to do to make it right. the problem is we're detached and don't know what's right. I say, when in doubt, mimic nature's settings, bio-mimcry is the method since the dawn of man.
Also, to say that humans have only done harm so do nothing leads to a cop-out of responsibility IMO. The pre-Columbian native California peoples lived here for 20,000 yrs. +. the whole Pacific coast was a tended garden. Forests of food and diversity. Every account of the pioneers in California attests to this, but they assumed it was just naturally occuring, as if by chance. An amazing book called 1491, by Charles Mann, gives a very vivid picture as to how well man help propagate and accelerate natural cycles until Columbus landed. The Amazon Rainforest was not by chance, it was tended. The Australian indigenous cultures, for 40,000+ yrs.! Changes our understanding of hunter/gatherer for sure. No, no, we've only recently in the long line of time functioned so poorly and devastatingly. An in that short time we've done a whole lot.
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Doesn't the notion of 'managing' and 'controlling' nature strike anyone as hilarious and arrogant? Anything man has ever done has made things worse, not better.
I agree man has messed up nature in a major way, but the best approach now is leave it alone.
Who 'kept things in check' when humans weren't yet busy wiping out species after species out of financial gain or bloodlust? The only ones disturbing the balance is us humans, and any attempt by us to restore it is destined to fail spectacularly.
The idea of managing deer and other species would be laughable if it weren't for the sad fact that we've basically killed off most of their natural predators. But oh my god, there's still coyotes around who might take deer. Better kill those too.
Exactly. We wonder why, after decimating cougar and bear populations, why coyotes flourish.
What people don't seem to realize is that ecology is very tightly intertwined. If you alter one area, it affects everything else. This lesson was learned down in Oz when they tried to fence out dingo populations to protect farmers. Instead of less damage caused by the dingo, they found that other species just filled the gap or the unchecked species of other vermin went nuts and destroyed other flora, causing a ripple effect that ended up endangering two protected species. Perhaps it is time to realize that we are in their home?
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dougo, philwar,
I'm with you on the idea of 'control,' it is completely warped.
But 'tending the wild' is a very old concept and very beneficial thing. Imagine what only a handful of cast seed would do in a day!
Humans do have their place in the natural world. Always have, always will.
If anything, we can say our purpose over the long time has been to help propagate and accelerate natural cycles! It's our choice which way, up or down, and we've gone both!
sorry, back to the coyotes!
I'm with you on the idea of 'control,' it is completely warped.
But 'tending the wild' is a very old concept and very beneficial thing. Imagine what only a handful of cast seed would do in a day!
Humans do have their place in the natural world. Always have, always will.
If anything, we can say our purpose over the long time has been to help propagate and accelerate natural cycles! It's our choice which way, up or down, and we've gone both!
sorry, back to the coyotes!
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You're right about humans having their place in the natural world. And the fact that they are becoming more numerous is a reality---even if it isn't a good one. So I think we have to deal with the reality of animal/human interaction under these circumstances.
DancesWithKnives
DancesWithKnives
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My bad.
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Really?It seems to me that our management is working pretty dang good, including year round seasons on coyotes. Coyote population continues to explode and expand their range every year. Deer, wild turkeys, well I am not going to list it out, suffice it to say, wildlife populations are at an all time high. Be careful listening to the left and talking about things you have no knowledge of. Chris
Easy there. No reason to make ASSumptions about people you don't know. Remember, our human interference is, in large part, the reason that so many damn animals are extinct, endangered, or protected. Guess who got them protected? The loony left. Guess it doesn't hurt to listen to them, huh? It has been mostly proven, by the way, that human interference doesn't help controlling populations as much as just leaving them alone will.
Cheers
A red-blooded, gun-totin, right wing terrorist.:thumbup:
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Easy there noob. No reason to make ASSumptions about people you don't know. Remember, our human interference is, in large part, the reason that so many damn animals are extinct, endangered, or protected. Guess who got them protected? The loony left. Guess it doesn't hurt to listen to them, huh? It has been mostly proven, by the way, that human interference doesn't help controlling populations as much as just leaving them alone will.
Cheers
A red-blooded, gun-totin, right wing terrorist.:thumbup:
AAHHH, If I were only my old self but the boar is dead. Chris
EDIT: Dang you took the NOOB comment out before I could quote, that was the best part, there, I put it back for you.
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and once again, what could have been a decent, informative thread, slides into the abyss of politics, political correctness, and holier than thou pontification.
Sad...................
Sad...................
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This is, of course, the nature of such a discussion. It is a very politically vested issue. I think this discussion, for the most part, has carried on much better than the last one on a similar topic.
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It is OKAY to agree to disagree on these difficult issues. Though your views might be different than mine, I am still interested in why you believe what you believe...or I wouldn't be here. We come from different places on the planet, different cultures in some cases, different experiences, etc. One thing we ALL have in common is our interest in the outdoors and what is best for the environment around us. We make headway on these topics when we can discuss these things peacefully and keep the moderators from having to jump in and referee or baby-sit. I don't like that, nor do you. 
Back to the Coyote (Canis Latrans): Here in the West, the coyote populations flourished when the wolves were exterminated in these states. This is a matter of record here in my county (the ranchers/farmers thought the predation problems would disappear with the wolf). Man, once again in his genius, only made the predation problem much worse than what it was with the wolf.
Just simply shooting the small prairie wolf (like I stated in another post) does not begin to control the coyote. A coyotes community is number based and he has NO problem populating when those numbers are down. With a short 9-week gestation period, 2 - 7 pups in a litter, you do the math. The ranchers east of where we live, have only had a mild affect on coyotes by using a mixture of traps, fumigants and toxicants. Most of us ranchers have figured out that if you can maintain a group of well-trained coyotes (their parents train them...as I mentioned) around the ranch, they will not let in other coyote families who may present a danger to the livestock. Too, it is important not to do anything to attract the coyote (leaving out dog food, small animals, exposed trash, etc.). Keeping them afraid of you will keep them at a distance and all will be happy.
The coyotes around our place keep the vole numbers down. Stepping into a vole hole can sprain an ankle real quick. I just about had a tractor roll on me because the right rear wheel fell into a vole tunnel on the side of hill. So, the vole and the ground squirrels can be a real danger on a ranch or farm for people and animal alike. Something needs to control the rodents in our environment and, the coyote does a real good job of it, right along with the eagle, hawk, owls, snake, etc. Now, this is how things work in my environment. Your environment may be different. You may have an issue with the urban coyote which can be a real problem if not controlled. Still, I don't blame the coyote, I blame the people who hang out their uneducated and sloppy life-style in full view of a predator.
Back to the Coyote (Canis Latrans): Here in the West, the coyote populations flourished when the wolves were exterminated in these states. This is a matter of record here in my county (the ranchers/farmers thought the predation problems would disappear with the wolf). Man, once again in his genius, only made the predation problem much worse than what it was with the wolf.
Just simply shooting the small prairie wolf (like I stated in another post) does not begin to control the coyote. A coyotes community is number based and he has NO problem populating when those numbers are down. With a short 9-week gestation period, 2 - 7 pups in a litter, you do the math. The ranchers east of where we live, have only had a mild affect on coyotes by using a mixture of traps, fumigants and toxicants. Most of us ranchers have figured out that if you can maintain a group of well-trained coyotes (their parents train them...as I mentioned) around the ranch, they will not let in other coyote families who may present a danger to the livestock. Too, it is important not to do anything to attract the coyote (leaving out dog food, small animals, exposed trash, etc.). Keeping them afraid of you will keep them at a distance and all will be happy.
The coyotes around our place keep the vole numbers down. Stepping into a vole hole can sprain an ankle real quick. I just about had a tractor roll on me because the right rear wheel fell into a vole tunnel on the side of hill. So, the vole and the ground squirrels can be a real danger on a ranch or farm for people and animal alike. Something needs to control the rodents in our environment and, the coyote does a real good job of it, right along with the eagle, hawk, owls, snake, etc. Now, this is how things work in my environment. Your environment may be different. You may have an issue with the urban coyote which can be a real problem if not controlled. Still, I don't blame the coyote, I blame the people who hang out their uneducated and sloppy life-style in full view of a predator.
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Being a Coyote Hunter myself. I never pass up an opportunity to safely and legally shoot a Yote. But then I don't think there is anything wrong with shooting varmints. There is almost nothing, more fun than sitting on an Alf-alfa field shooting sage rats,,,
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Dannyboy,
Well said on the different environments and views. I had the same problem with a tractor once! Those voles! Ground squirrels are a pain here as well...
We put up three barn owl boxes two years ago. Takes 2-3 years to get them occupied. This year we had sign in two of them! A family of barn owls will eat over 1000 gophers in a season...
Well, we've stopped trapping in the orchards and both vineyards completely. Amazing how much those little ones saved us!
Equally amazing how quickly the gophers were curbed, in just one season.
Just like our Bermuda grass when we introduced baby doll sheep, our little 'lawnmower/fertilizers,'. They slurped it up like noodles! In one season, no issue. Plus, no more having to mow!
And Happy Holidays! Peace to all!
Back to the howling!!!!!! Arr-arr-awwrooooo!
Well said on the different environments and views. I had the same problem with a tractor once! Those voles! Ground squirrels are a pain here as well...
We put up three barn owl boxes two years ago. Takes 2-3 years to get them occupied. This year we had sign in two of them! A family of barn owls will eat over 1000 gophers in a season...
Well, we've stopped trapping in the orchards and both vineyards completely. Amazing how much those little ones saved us!
Equally amazing how quickly the gophers were curbed, in just one season.
Just like our Bermuda grass when we introduced baby doll sheep, our little 'lawnmower/fertilizers,'. They slurped it up like noodles! In one season, no issue. Plus, no more having to mow!
And Happy Holidays! Peace to all!
Back to the howling!!!!!!
Arr-arr-awwrooooo!
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August West,
I will respectfully say only this, as you edited your statement, but saw in a response. I speak from no political bias. I question both sides equally when I hear anything and go explore it myself. I prefer to speak from direct observation and experience. Otherwise I don't. I live in the country on a ranch, was born in Alaska amongst big game, big guns. I have a couple myself. I've been around. I'm no tie-dyed treehugger.
As for what I say regarding ecology, this is my field of study. This is what I do. And what I teach. I live this. My passion it is. The only bias may be regional differences regarding populations and personal experiences, admitted.
pj,
The response I deleted was for Philwar. I have no problem with anything of yours I have read. My reference to the left was towards the inference to man screwing up everything he touches, which like global warming
, is not true, after all Polio is natural. Chris
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If you have no reason to kill them then don't
but if they get in the way of you putting food on the table... that's a different story
I grew up with coyotes in my area, but that is in California and things are assbackwards here, all they ever did was kill a few stray cats and dogs
they're damn clever beasts though
they send a female in heat into an urban area to lure male dogs out into the night, then the whole pack takes the poor mutt down
I respet them for being able to adapt to mans environment, but if I had a farm and lost animals to them, no question about it SOS
but if they get in the way of you putting food on the table... that's a different story
I grew up with coyotes in my area, but that is in California and things are assbackwards here, all they ever did was kill a few stray cats and dogs
they're damn clever beasts though
they send a female in heat into an urban area to lure male dogs out into the night, then the whole pack takes the poor mutt down
I respet them for being able to adapt to mans environment, but if I had a farm and lost animals to them, no question about it SOS
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paleojoe,
Yes, the vole and ground squirrels can be a real threat to life and limb with their tunneling. I know several wheat and cattle ranchers, farmers who have been injured in a number of ways because of holes and tunnels left by these rodents. I almost went down with my horse, too, when he stepped in a tunnel. Fortunately he wasn't injured.
Sounds like your owls are really doing a good job! That would really be an interesting project. We spoke with a rancher down in Klamath County, south of us, that has been doing the very same. Working with a local wildlife biologist, he is able to maintain several owl boxes in an abandoned barn on his property. The project thus far has saved him many thousands of dollars in crop damage because of rodents and birds alike.
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