Thoughts on WSK Knives ?

[Diomedes Industries]

you know, I had a hate on for these styles for the longest time....

Just like I did with the potbelly, thought it was the ugliest, useless looking knife I had ever seen.

Then I used one.... Total change of mind, and im sure this would be no different.

I agree - I have not used one. I STILL think the Kephart is an ugly knife - but I own two and LOVE them.

For me - part of it is that Tops was the first one to make one - I am not a huge fan of tops - they seem to make over thick pry bars and paint the heck out of them to cover up a lack of finesse'.

Further, I have read a lot of Tom Brown, and I respect him, but when he was asked about the best knife for Bushcrafting - he replied that 'There was no best knife for bushcrafting.... because it had not been invented yet.' This was his story as to how the WSK came about. I am all for bravado - but that just seems to be overstating himself - at best.

I know that neither of these reasons are reasons for not owning a knife - but I wager the First Nation people that he learned his skills from did not need a WSK to be outstanding bushcrafters....

TF

 

[ChapmanPreferred]

I have really been drawn to the WSK in the movie the Hunted, and I really enjoyed the few images in the extra features from that movie regarding the knife. It makes me wish I had a forge. I like the more streamlined look to the movie version when compared to the Tops verion. I have a WSK from Dan Koster, but I have not invested much time into using it. I got the version without the notching saw on the spine.

 

[echo-7]

Nice design Pit...

A very rough sketch but I was thinking I'd like them a little more along these lines~

 

[skorpyd]

I have one of the Finnish versions on the way. It's the BushBeast. We'll see
http://rautasarvi.fi/?cat=35

 

[PatriotDan]

My very limited experience with the thing, I had a chance to try the bigger TOPS version out two summers ago, the TOPS Tracker is an absolute fail of the vision that is WSK. It has such poor grind design and seems to require heavy regrind mod to make it work. Horndog's convex regrind was pretty amazing work. I bet if the TOPS came with Horndog grinds it would have a much better reputation.

But the bigger fail in my opinion is the mating of features into a size and weight that will perform poor no matter what. Size-weight-performance just isn't there.

Only way, in my opinion, to make WSK work equally well with other well designed knives is by lengthening the whole knife to a "chopper class" with a 9...14 inch blade and redesign the chopper and utility knife grinds and proportions.

 

[Wandering_About]

They will never appeal to me because the niche they aim at has parameters that are totally irrelevant to me. If I want a chopping tool that weighs about 1lb it isn't going to look remotely like that. If I want a wood carving knife it isn't going to look anything like that. If I want a good field knife that has excellence at cutting stuff I'm likely to want to cut I won't look at all like that. If I want a saw it will not look like that. There's a bit of a pattern forming. However, if I were to stick a bunch of dumb parameters together - “I must only have one cutting tool”, “that cutting tool be really thick but also have a potion of the blade that shaves wood as well as a SAK”, “yet it must be front heavy”, “whilst retaining enough knife like shape that kids will readily identify with it as a weapon in some damn stupid movie” and so on, it might start to look like that. Unfortunately such a random cluster of unnecessary parameters is something I just don't have, so any potential enjoyment is lost to me forever. To quote Mike Stewart “it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist”.

This is pretty much what I'm trying to get at. It solves nothing for me. I'd rather go at it with just a hatchet than one of these silly things. It's overthought into a waste of steel. Yeah, I just went there!

 

[baldtaco-II]

 

[DOC-CANADA]

I've briefly handled a couple of Beck's and they were pretty impressive. Would love to have one if they didn't cost an arm and a leg.

Others have also tried to design the 'do all, be all' knife. Ethan Becker is quoted as saying that was his motivation when designing the Machax. I have a Machax and it is my most prized knife. It is truly capable of doing many things, well. And how's that saying go about 'prying from my cold, dead hands..........?

It all boils down to different strokes for different folks.

Doc

 

[Shotgun]

The saw works just like it should. But it is not for cutting logs in half it is for sawing notches.

I am not a big fan of sawing notches I can carve then faster than sawing them in to wood, for the traps that I make.

My thoughts exactly. I've heard guys like the SAK saws for this reason but either they're making traps I don't or they're doing it in a different way. I haven't found a saw to be very useful in that regard.

As to the knife itself I'm with you Pit. There's something about the design that is aesthetically pleasing for me. I think if tops did away with the saw on the back and ground the knife a little more acutely like on your movie pic, I'd buy one. Can't wait to see what you come out with Bryan.

 

[baldtaco-II]

I've briefly handled a couple of Beck's and they were pretty impressive. Would love to have one if they didn't cost an arm and a leg. Others have also tried to design the 'do all, be all' knife. Ethan Becker is quoted as saying that was his motivation when designing the Machax. I have a Machax and it is my most prized knife. It is truly capable of doing many things, well. And how's that saying go about 'prying from my cold, dead hands..........?It all boils down to different strokes for different folks.Doc

I don't think you are at all being fair to the Machax. Like most proper hand tools they are built upon a solid evolutionary foundation. It might be pushed in a direction we may or may not like for some reason but it isn't just a random leap like a child scribbling down every feature it can think of in a game of picture consequences.

 

[Fonly]

I wager the First Nation people that he learned his skills from did not need a WSK to be outstanding bushcrafters....

TF

Exactly, and I come back to the same old statement, nothing is needed, its all personal taste.

I don't need a knife, sure it helps, but there are ways to get around it. But if I'm going to carry a knife, why not have one with some pizzaz, and if i have a knife, why not take a machete and folding saw, .25" thick machete sure! heck, may as well take a chain saw, I can go for hours with that.... see where I'm going?

To each his own, nothing is needed. Did i just make a signature line?

 

[panzertroop]

Has anyone here checked out Operational Excellence Tracker videos on Youtube?? He demonstrates amazing skill with a tracker. Worth a watch

 

[Shotgun]

- but I wager the First Nation people that he learned his skills from did not need a WSK to be outstanding bushcrafters....

TF

Exactly, and I come back to the same old statement, nothing is needed, its all personal taste.

I don't need a knife, sure it helps, but there are ways to get around it. But if I'm going to carry a knife, why not have one with some pizzaz, and if i have a knife, why not take a machete and folding saw, .25" thick machete sure! heck, may as well take a chain saw, I can go for hours with that.... see where I'm going?

To each his own, nothing is needed. Did i just make a signature line?

I agree with what you're getting at but there's a drawing in Lewis' or Clark's journal of what the knife the natives in this area were using. It looked a little like the knife below only had a smaller double blade on the butt of the knife as well. You never know what works.

 

[Fonly]

Yup...

I've read that style was so common due to it being used in both altercations and daily use.

who knows, I read a lot of crap...

 

[pitdog]

I've briefly handled a couple of Beck's and they were pretty impressive. Would love to have one if they didn't cost an arm and a leg.

Others have also tried to design the 'do all, be all' knife. Ethan Becker is quoted as saying that was his motivation when designing the Machax. I have a Machax and it is my most prized knife. It is truly capable of doing many things, well. And how's that saying go about 'prying from my cold, dead hands..........?

It all boils down to different strokes for different folks.

Doc

Hey Doc, so you rate the machax eh ? I was super looking forward to it's re-release and then I stumbled upon this review by Cliff Stamp and it kinda put a downer on it for me !
Out of all the Beckers the Machax has always been the one that's appealed to me the most.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/machax.html

 

[pitdog]

This is one of my favourite video's, not a full size Tracker but pretty neat !

[youtube]PG-sVzHLdNY[/youtube]

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Hey Doc, so you rate the machax eh ? I was super looking forward to it's re-release and then I stumbled upon this review by Cliff Stamp and it kinda put a downer on it for me !
Out of all the Beckers the Machax has always been the one that's appealed to me the most.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/machax.html

Stamp's review was done on the Camillus model which is generally considered inferior to the Cincinatti (mine) and Blackjack versions. A friend of mine bought the Camillus version and, from the little I handled it, I was not impressed. For one thing, the grind was too thick.

I love my Machax and I have used it since the mid-90's. It chops great for its size, is relatively light weight and can carve well up close to the handle.

I am also looking forward to the re-release and apparently, will be getting one to test and compare.

Quote (baldtaco): I don't think you are at all being fair to the Machax.

Sorry, bt, but I don't understand why you think I'm being unfair. There was an article in the now defunct American Survival guide in which they test drove the Machax and in the article, Ethan was quoted as I mentioned above. (I'm not at home at the moment, but when I get home, I can post a jpeg of the article.) It was largely because of the article that I bought one. I was not disappointed.

Doc

ETA: I found my typed out version on the Becker sub-forum:

The following appeared in American Survival Guide. It's what got me interested in the first place:
--------------------------------------------

MACHAX SURVIVAL TOOL

Modern interpretation of the classic Gurkha Kukri

Staff Evaluation

"I want a tool I can use for everything - chopping and whittling as well as a froe, hammer or pry bar," explains Ethan Becker, president of Becker Knife and Tool Corporation which makes the Machax Survival Tool and a similar knife called the Warrior.
"It is not the best hammer, but the flat can be used for one if needed. It is not the best pry bar, but it works. In its primary uses, chopping and hacking, please note that when it hits it hits dead. There is no 'machete wrist' from vibration! You will be able to use the Machax for quite a while before your wrist hurts." One of our guys took a Machax out in the woods and in four hours with the Machax as his only tool he built and thatched a roomy lean-to shelter for two people, a fire frame and reflector, two pieces of camp furniture and stocked the camp with firewood - and no machete wrist.
"Note also the differential grind on Machax which has more of a slicing angle on the inside of the curve to more of a chopping and splitting angle closer to the tip. We are, I think, the only people who sharpen down close to the grip on a tool like this so that it is easy to use for close-up work."
The heavy 1/4 inch 4140 chrome-moly blade of the Machax borrows the unmatched weight distribution of the Gurkha Kukri knife (which itself is a variation of an ancient design), combines it with fine American steel, full tang construction and Zytel scales large enough for a good working grip. Weight is 20 ounces.
The 4140 chrome-moly steel is moderately heat treated, giving it a very tough nature. It can be quickly sharpened using a file, stone or rock if need be. It will rust, but it has a rust resistant phosphate finish except for the edge. A little oil will help prevent corrosion. If the scales or blade are ever broken, BK&T will replace them without question - provided you didn't do it on purpose. We tried out the Machax in a bamboo thicket and on several types of dead and live trees and heavy brush and found it to be excellent.
The Machax can be purchased with fine black leather or nylon sheath for $129 (either sheath alone is $25) from Becker Knife & Tool Corp., Dept. ASG, P.O. Box 44179, Cincinnati, OH 45244; (513) 231-9446. Ohio residents add 5-1/2 percent sales tax. Also available at better cutlery dealers.
--------------------------------------------------------
As it appeared in American Survival Guide magazine - January 1989
--------------------------------------------------------

 

[baldtaco-II]

Sorry, bt, but I don't understand why you think I'm being unfair. There was an article in the now defunct American Survival guide in which they test drove the Machax and in the article, Ethan was quoted as I mentioned above. (I'm not at home at the moment, but when I get home, I can post a jpeg of the article.) It was largely because of the article that I bought one. I was not disappointed.DocETA: I found my typed out version on the Becker sub-forum:The following appeared in American Survival Guide. It's what got me interested in the first place:--------------------------------------------MACHAX SURVIVAL TOOLModern interpretation of the classic Gurkha Kukri Staff Evaluation"I want a tool I can use for everything - chopping and whittling as well as a froe, hammer or pry bar," explains Ethan Becker, president of Becker Knife and Tool Corporation which makes the Machax Survival Tool and a similar knife called the Warrior."It is not the best hammer, but the flat can be used for one if needed. It is not the best pry bar, but it works. In its primary uses, chopping and hacking, please note that when it hits it hits dead. There is no 'machete wrist' from vibration! You will be able to use the Machax for quite a while before your wrist hurts." One of our guys took a Machax out in the woods and in four hours with the Machax as his only tool he built and thatched a roomy lean-to shelter for two people, a fire frame and reflector, two pieces of camp furniture and stocked the camp with firewood - and no machete wrist."Note also the differential grind on Machax which has more of a slicing angle on the inside of the curve to more of a chopping and splitting angle closer to the tip. We are, I think, the only people who sharpen down close to the grip on a tool like this so that it is easy to use for close-up work."The heavy 1/4 inch 4140 chrome-moly blade of the Machax borrows the unmatched weight distribution of the Gurkha Kukri knife (which itself is a variation of an ancient design), combines it with fine American steel, full tang construction and Zytel scales large enough for a good working grip. Weight is 20 ounces.The 4140 chrome-moly steel is moderately heat treated, giving it a very tough nature. It can be quickly sharpened using a file, stone or rock if need be. It will rust, but it has a rust resistant phosphate finish except for the edge. A little oil will help prevent corrosion. If the scales or blade are ever broken, BK&T will replace them without question - provided you didn't do it on purpose. We tried out the Machax in a bamboo thicket and on several types of dead and live trees and heavy brush and found it to be excellent.The Machax can be purchased with fine black leather or nylon sheath for $129 (either sheath alone is $25) from Becker Knife & Tool Corp., Dept. ASG, P.O. Box 44179, Cincinnati, OH 45244; (513) 231-9446. Ohio residents add 5-1/2 percent sales tax. Also available at better cutlery dealers.--------------------------------------------------------As it appeared in American Survival Guide magazine - January 1989--------------------------------------------------------

I believe the unfairness inheres in the way you appeared to be comparing the Machax to these WSK things. You cited the 'do all, be all' thing as if it were a characteristic that binds them. I accept the objective of each could be versatility. So yes they have that in common, but the way they go about it is very different. As you can see from the image I posted the Machax itself is a revision of a revision and so on. In turn it wouldn't be very hard to follow that back to some evolved agricultural tool. During the tweaking process it sacrifices a bit of usefulness at one thing for a bit better performance at something else. Yet there are no great leaps that usurp its goodness at everything. These WSK things don't present like that at all. The lone thing that it looks like it might be at all good at is if that section in front of the handle is ground high and thin enough it can work a twig as well as a sodbuster. Unlike the Machax the harder this thing has tried to be versatile the less good it looks for anything. It's like numerous other knives that have no design pedigree – just a collection of unrelated stuff ground into a thick bit of bar stock. People make them work in the same way as folks have ridden bicycles designed to go forward when you peddle backwards, and with oval shaped wheels .etc. It's a novel bit of clown apparatus but it isn't a tool. Of course one can make such a bicycle ideal by tailoring the parameters to “you're in a circus”. Same with this WSK thing. The start is the totally arbitrary “you can only have one...” and so on. I'm pretty sure that targets the Tarzan / Rambo / Pick a TV prat mentality. Nobody I take seriously would consider a WSK better than a two knife solution. When you “can have only one” you are playing, and that one is a toy. The Machax differs markedly from that. It doesn't require that parameter. I think a Machax and a SAK for example would cover a lot of tasks rather well. Pair a WSK with a SAK and you've made most of it redundant. I strongly suspect that if one seriously wanted a tool and had bought a WSK even a very humble KA-BAR would leave one feeling stupid and wanting their money back after comparison.

 

[pitdog]

Hahahaha....I love the controversy these knives cause !!!!

From my own perspective do I consider a Med Fixed blade, SAK, Silky Saw and Axe to be better than a WSK.......hell yeah, course I do ! But if you are only gonna carry one tool then in my humble opinion these can be a very viable option.
I just wish the doubters could join me on trip out and see just what the WSK's can do.

 

[Wandering_About]

Personally, I think the one do-all tool fantasies are kind of stupid. But that's just me.

How many mechanics do you see that carry only a crescent wrench?