Thread that shouldn't have been

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I have a dell computer, maybe i can get one of those fancy "Lion" batteries shipped from "Illi-noise". You know the ones that are "supposibly" made in China. I cant imagine someone thinking that was worthwhile to film let alone post to youtube. However at least there was a knife in the video momentarily.
 
Thanks Nick, now I gotta make sure my progress is up to snuff and take a couple of photo classes :D

As ya mentioned I love WIP threads, ecspecially interesting ones like Snody makes (his dialogue is great).

I think for more inexperienced guys making them is get thru the entire thing then post the WIP, atleast in my case thats how it would have to be because right now a big percentage of the blades I make dont really get to that finished state. They can be great if the individual is giving video or photo of his steps and progress so that more experienced guys can give there input.
 
I put one up, but I put it up simply because I was doing a somewhat challenging design and wanted to be told if I did something wrong, and to have a thread where I could ask questions about that particular build(?).
 
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I think what I take from this is that there should be two kinds of WIPs. A tutorial, and a build along, and that the language contained there-in should reflect exactly which one it is. I would never post a tutorial WIP. I have nothing to show that is as good as many of our members here. This self aggrandizing attitude that many display is a large part of the reason why I don't frequent forums anymore. I am extremely grateful for the work that has been presented on this forum, but I don't delude myself by thinking I have anything to teach. I think I just rambled whole bunch. Sorry bout that. I concur Nick!
 
I like WIP's of any kind because they generally have pictures that tell a great deal. I don't care the reason behind the post - whether it be "look at me" or "help" or, "I'm going to show you my trade secret so pay attention." I can tell in the first few posts if I'm interested. If not, I move on or away. I've picked up some amazing knowledge from a few of you, and once in a while get surprised by someone I've never heard of. I look forward to posts that are new, most WIPs are one of a kind. I don't get excited about posts like "what steel should I use," etc, because they have been covered to death. Maybe some WIPs could just get to the point quicker, and not cover what has been covered and covered. I use Stacy's search tool all the time and will plug it here.

http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644%3Aqfobr3dlcra
 
While I try to be detailed in my WIP threads, more so than anything written in any of the knifemaking books I own, so that people might occasionally get a tip or trick or assembly method they'd not yet heard of, I don't kid myself (and certainly no-one else) that I'm turning out anything close to the jaw dropping work in WIPs from John White, Steve Culver, Bruce Bump, etc. Perhaps I do it from the enjoyment of sharing what I do with a crowd of people who know what I'm talking about and like seeing other people's shops and tools. Camaraderie, I guess. I do get a lot emails, PMs, and even some phone calls from people who've read my WIPs and some of the info at my website. I enjoy helping people out if I can, this is the subject I know most about- and I've gotten this far largely thanks to the generosity and knowledge of others. Pay it forward! I fairly often teach people for free at my shop, and I'd like to have a school one day. WIPs are also a method of practice for that day perhaps, not to mention the well known truism that "the best way to learn is to teach."

Just my $.02, not directly responding to you Nick, just kind of riffing on it.
 
I agree with Nick that many WIPs are just a show and tell thread.

If the whole thing is put up as a finished product it isn't a Work In Process. If it has value to those reading it , it may be a tutorial, but most first knife WIPs that are posted after the knife is finished are not news or information to anyone. Many are full of errors that would have been avoided in a real WIP.

There are two categories of WIP I like to see:
1) First time makers to do their knife slowly as a WIP. I often send the blade blank and needed materials to them, and advise to start a WIP, posting the intended next procedures and progress as they go. They thus get lots of input, and avoid many pitfalls/errors before they happen. Other new makers can follow along and learn some of the procedures and things to avoid. In the modern age, seeing it is easier than reading it ( sadly, many don't read all that well).

2) Accomplished makers ( like Nick,Fred,Patrice,etc.) who do a build or process that we all would like to know more about, like a fighter or feather pattern damascus, and show the process over a few days or weeks. That is educational to all of us.

Mini-Rant:
What really gets me yelling at the computer screen is when someone posts his first ( or tenth) knife as a WIP when it is already done, or just posts photos of it in a standard "My First/Second Knife" thread, and it is atrocious ( another "A" word for Robert to look up). That alone isn't all that terrible, as we all learn slowly and hopefully improve. What really sets me off is when a bunch of folks reply, "Wow, nice knife" - "Great Job" - "Super" - etc.. Do they really think it is nice???? or are they just wanting to hear their own voice. In the recent charred 2X4 handle, unhardened and barely shaped piece of steel first knife thread, several folks posted these type of accolades ( dang, another "A" word - Sorry Robert). There is no way anyone over 10 or outside of a prison would call it a nice knife.
 
bladsmth said:
Mini-Rant:
What really gets me yelling at the computer screen is when someone posts his first ( or tenth) knife as a WIP when it is already done, or just posts photos of it in a standard "My First/Second Knife" thread, and it is atrocious ( another "A" word for Robert to look up). That alone isn't all that terrible, as we all learn slowly and hopefully improve. What really sets me off is when a bunch of folks reply, "Wow, nice knife" - "Great Job" - "Super" - etc.. Do they really think it is nice???? or are they just wanting to hear their own voice. In the recent charred 2X4 handle, unhardened and barely shaped piece of steel first knife thread, several folks posted these type of accolades ( dang, another "A" word - Sorry Robert). There is no way anyone over 10 or outside of a prison would call it a nice knife.
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That's definitely interesting to watch.

There is a balance between not wanting to insult and demoralize a new maker vs. wanting to shake them by the shoulders and kick em in the seat.
 
Its the changing of the guard and this is the society that we have fostered. Everything is put on the web as a form of expression or looking for acceptance and accolades so I see beginner WIP's on a knife forum as natural extension. Why would they not put a WIP on the forum if they did not believe that they would be accepted and receive some quality help and advice along the way.

One would not be subject to believe that if the membership has fostered an environment of "elitism" here that new makers and those desiring to make just one knife would feel as confident to post a WIP ,however I see it as a healthy sign that people do have a bit of trust and place their work on display. Now my question back is do you want the stench of elitism to purvey here? Blade forum has a nasty rep for not sparing the tongue or tapping of the keys in some areas and by the nature of its subject and membership its understandable however I don't believe that it would benefit the forum or its membership to foster such a totalitarian aire when people are trying to learn and are very proud of what they have accomplished.

Do you remember your first knife? How proud you were of it even if by today's standard and readily available knowledge base it was still a POS? The desire to show others, learn more and dreaming of the next one? With so much that is no longer handmade and to have gone out and spent time away from family, friends and your hard earned cash to manufacturer this small, maybe its large ;), piece of metal that resembles something of the dream inside is a powerful thing as is the same desire to share it. Welcome to the 21st Century and the age of Social Networking. Next nubile WIP please!

If this subject and responses irritates THE MOD then simply have MOD create a new sub-forum with the catchy name like maybe "The Beginner forum" , "Newbie WIP's you have been Warned", "The forum of a Thousand Questions" or something like that. :)

Stepping off the soapbox now ;)
 
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shane wink said:
Its the changing of the guard and this is the society that we have fostered. Everything is put on the web as a form of expression or looking for acceptance and accolades so I see beginner WIP's on a knife forum as natural extension. Why would they not put a WIP on the forum if they did not believe that they would be accepted and receive some quality help and advice along the way.

One would not be subject to believe that if the membership has fostered an environment of "elitism" here that new makers and those desiring to make just one knife would feel as confident to post a WIP ,however I see it as a healthy sign that people do have a bit of trust and place their work on display. Now my question back is do you want the stench of elitism to purvey here? Blade forum has a nasty rep for not sparing the tongue or tapping of the keys in some areas and by the nature of its subject and membership its understandable however I don't believe that it would benefit the forum or its membership to foster such a totalitarian aire when people are trying to learn and are very proud of what they have accomplished.

Do you remember your first knife? How proud you were of it even if by today's standard and readily available knowledge base it was still a POS? The desire to show others, learn more and dreaming of the next one? With so much that is no longer handmade and to have gone out and spent time away from family, friends and your hard earned cash to manufacturer this small, maybe its large ;), piece of metal that resembles something of the dream inside is a powerful thing as is the same desire to share it. Welcome to the 21st Century and the age of Social Networking. Next nubile WIP please!

Stepping off the soapbox now ;)
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there's a big difference between "eliteism" (as you call it) and constructive criticisim.
 
And a difference in interpretation of the written word which in itself a bad medium in itself, however there are times that the aire is about and in no way implys everyone acts in that manner nor that Nick Wheeler does either but it does exist and IMO if one were for limiting new maker WIPS then yes that is elitism.
 
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Nick, see your point but don't really get it. I think all of us can tell the difference between a tutorial WIP and a "help me get this right" WIP, both by the content and the posters expertise. Someone in the latter catagory who comes off like a know-it-all should be admonished or ignored, but I think those posts are the exception, not the rule.

I can say for certain that my progress would not be even close to where it is if I had not received feedback from my "First Knife WIP". For example, I would not have chamfered my handle holes had someone not explicitly told me to do so.

Maybe we are polluting the basic search function but if it's an issue of thread titling then come up with something better. I admit when I did mine (still ongoing) I was hesitant to label it a WIP but decided to go ahead when I realized that's exactly what it was.
 
Instead of WIP maybe KMIP would be more exact. All of us who make knives are works in progress. When I think back on what I was doing 15 years ago it makes me laugh out loud. But then when I think about what I am doing today, I have the same response, I laugh out loud. I admit to myself that I am a work in progress, as a knife maker, I don't know it all and there is still volumes to learn. I will discover something today I am sure of it.

Fred
 
I am glad to see so many folks interested in knifemaking. The only thing that bothers me about some beginner WIP's is when the OP has a bad attitude, as Nick points out or like Stacy brought up, folks just respond with back patting and no criticism. I for one, would love to have some of our experienced/successful makers looking over my shoulder, calling me out, while I made all my mistakes(thank goodness I don't make any. I once thought I had made a mistake.. turned out I was wrong:p). If everything goes well, you aren't learning. I admit there are some WIP's where I can't click the back button fast enough. At times, I just don't have the strength to go there... lol.

This is how the latest generation is communicating. They just throw it all out there. We need to encourage them to keep moving forward. The oldtimers will remember when all you had was a magazine ad and a phonebook. You were very fortunate to write/talk to another knifemaker, let alone interact on a daily basis.

I have been thinking about opening a video chat or Skype account to take advantage of communication technology even more.

LOVE the new look, Nick!
 
Calvin Richardson said:
I think what I take from this is that there should be two kinds of WIPs. A tutorial, and a build along, and that the language contained there-in should reflect exactly which one it is. I would never post a tutorial WIP. I have nothing to show that is as good as many of our members here. This self aggrandizing attitude that many display is a large part of the reason why I don't frequent forums anymore. I am extremely grateful for the work that has been presented on this forum, but I don't delude myself by thinking I have anything to teach. I think I just rambled whole bunch. Sorry bout that. I concur Nick!
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This. Buildalongs are fine and dandy but they are different from tutorials. Lot's of the "WIP's" out there are really buildalongs but some of them like Nicks (in)famous megathread are tutorials. I for one will start using the term "buildalong" to describe any WIP's I make.
 
A few thoughts...

I try to help out on beginner WIP's if I can; I figure people are posting their process and I try to help. Now if the first knife being made has a "how to" thread that does not work for me. But then again some of it is semantics, something I could care less about. Attitude is important.

I think a lot of people underestimate what it takes in knifemaking; I see lots of questions geared that way. I just take it as that but sometimes it does feel like an insult. This kind of thing is no big deal to me as perspectives change, once again attitude is important.


Almost everything in knifemaking is more complicated than I think but for some reason my brain just can't get used to that. :)

Just a few months ago I thought I'd have a framelock finished within 3 months... here it is 6 months later and I was tweaking the design yesterday! Lol I still need $3400 more in equipment to make it the way I want and I still don;t learn.

Knifemaker time is what I call it. I'm still on schedule I swear! :D
 
I personally do TEND to look at the 1st knife WIPs. On occasion, I even try to chip in some helpful advice. In general, I prefer to take a positive tone, but I also want someone to get a sense for when things aren't as rosy as others might be painting them.

I don't mind so much the people with zero experience show what they are doing. In fact, even if it provides nothing more than a negative example (showing other newbies the pitfalls of ignoring good advice), then it still has value.

I will also readily admit there are times I just can't muster the enthusiasm to comment on the crudely sharpened pry bar projects. You might get one or two comments from me, but after that you're on my ignore list, most likely.

I like newbies. I want to help newbies. I will even offer to send them some supplies to help them (especially if I see all they have to work with is steel and lumber from Lowes or Home Depot). But there are limits. If someone shows no interest in making a real knife, why waste the materials and postage?

Anyway, I digress. So bring on the newbie WIPs, and let the wheels keep turning. Read them if you like, ignore them if that's your choice.

- Greg
 
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