Thread that shouldn't have been

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Now I feel like the a-hole. Nick, I read your post for the first time yesterday and was actually on board with it but then a nights sleep and reading all the replies made me loose sight of your initial comment. I know that you have been nothing but helpful to those like me who need the help and your initial comment says nothing to the contrary. Now get back to your elitist knife making ways!
 
OzarkMatt said:
This. Buildalongs are fine and dandy but they are different from tutorials. Lot's of the "WIP's" out there are really buildalongs but some of them like Nicks (in)famous megathread are tutorials. I for one will start using the term "buildalong" to describe any WIP's I make.
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Aren't we in danger of changing the meanings of words to fit the context rather than using the right words to begin with?
Why would a WORK IN PROGRESS be expected to be anything else but a documentation of the progress of a knife build?
If it's a tutorial on how to build a knife, then call it a tutorial. There's no real difference between WIP and build-along, semantically. Neither of them imply there is "arcane knowledge" to be learnt from watching the development of a knife.
I think we have taken for granted that people publishing WIP's are expected to be "guru's" and there's more information to be gleaned from the post than just the progress of the knife (and in the past that's usually been the case), but strictly speaking, a WIP should do exactly what it says on the tin. Document the Work In Progress.
Usually the WIPs that are more informative are usually titled "How I build "x" knives" or "How I make stick tang bolsters" etc. Maybe we should call "tutorial" WIPS, HIB's (How I Build) instead?

Pedantic semantics? Maybe. But like Porn on the internet, you don't have to read/look at it once you've realised what it is.
 
NickWheeler said:
FWIW- guys that have done a lot of WIPs like Salem and Patrice were absolutely NOT guys that I was thinking about with this thread. :)
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Even if I was pretty sure you were not talking about me, I still appreciate the confirmation Nick. I was concerned cause my skills are obviously way below folks like you so my WIPs are only partly educational, to beginners maybe. So I do them for:
Small part tutorial
Small part feedback/help
Big part sharing my passion, like having a friend in the shop with me.

Now on a side note, when I saw your avatar Nick it made me laugh cause it's just like my desktop: http://onlyhdwallpapers.com/wallpap...occhio_desktop_4000x2950_wallpaper-293039.jpg

I think the resemblance is uncanny. :D;)
 
I just like reading about knives good, bad or otherwise. Some people give us a peek at what they are doing be they a seasoned respected expert or green horn neophyte. I always can choose to view their thread or not.

I am not one to complain there is to much content on the internet. Threads that do not interest people fall off the page quickly never to be seen again. Interesting ones seem to live on for months, no real harm is done in either case other then those who get worked up and fret over how they do not approve how other people respond to posts.

It actually might be a good idea for the professional knifemakers to have a section where they and they alone can post their WIP's thread. That way the best of the best will be in one place.

Also a "Like" button on the forum would decrease a lot of the "Nice, great and Good work" posts some people seem to be troubled over.
 
I myself am very much a noob at this craft. I have not posted a WIP but i am guilty of being one of the ones who posted a thread with three finished knives. The one i posted had one picture of each knife, a description of materials used and a couple lines on why i chose the design and materials i did. I know my knives are not great yet, but i didnt post them for high-fives, back-pats and praise. They were posted to basically say "here is where i am at, these are what i have designed, what parts work and what parts need to be scrapped in the future". Basically i was just after input from the pros here who could tell me things like: drop the handle more, give it more belly, ditch the recurve etc. Anything i make is totally open for comments both good and very negative. The most important part is honesty, and sometimes to spare feelings, that doesnt happen around here. Maybe many of the new guys couldnt take the trashing but thats what i was after. Stacy commented on my first knife with something like, this is what happens when random ideas and materials that dont really go together randomly combine into a knife. Thats exactly what i was looking for. Someone to tell me honestly it looks like crap or it doesnt.

I am 26, dont have a facebook page, dont use twitter, or myspace or any of that so maybe I am slightly different than many of the slightly younger generation that are used to celebrating mediocrity. Society is to the point now where nobody loses, and everyone wins, whether it be sports or school or whatever else. Schools cant fail students who dont show up or do their work, nobody keeps score in baseball games when kids are young, Everyone who attends gets a medal at sporting events such as tournaments. Its where we are at today with everyone being raised to think everything they do is good. In fact i was working at a school the other day and saw a couple banners in the gym that blew my mind, one read "regional championships D side runner up". That is not banner worthy, that's 8th place. The other said "Provincial volleyball championships participant". These are the types of things that are praised so its only natural that the generation expects praise in most other aspects of life.

To end my meandering rant, I too would support a section where noobs, like myself also, could post a couple pictures or a build along without clogging the forum for better makers and causing a backlog of WIP threads when people try to search for ones that are actually informative or have valuable knowledge on a process.
 
All I have to say is that not everyone has the ability to win, excel, or even be mediocre... but everyone has the opportunity to enjoy what they CAN do. It should have no effect on the "best" to acknowledge the efforts of the "worst". I don't agree with lowering the standard of what being the "best" means... but it can get awful lonely for the majority who get left behind. Schools who rely on the reward system put out some of the brightest athletes and students... don't be blind to the wake of crushed souls and social deviants they leave behind.
 
Very true Rick, and i understand your points. I agree that being strictly goal and performance oriented leaves the majority in the dust and can cause some to stop trying all together. Sorry if i came off harsh, i did not mean that only the elite should be rewarded or acknowledged. I just meant that society seems to be blurring the lines by rewarding all individuals the same regardless of performance, and that, in my opinion is what has created the feeling in many that good enough is good enough. However those with the drive to excel still will. New makers need help, myself included to the full extent. Knifemakers are a relatively small community as a whole, and we rookies need people like yourself and the other highly skilled makers to help us along in our progress. I wasnt saying new guys shouldnt post pictures or threads about their knives. I am just saying that if or when we do, we should not just expect praise regardless of the product. Comments like "that looks like crap" may not help at all, but comments like "you should try shaping that handle different to avoid hot spots" or "you need to spend more time at each grit to get a better finish" are what we need to hear. Anyhow i will head out and refrain from further derailing this thread. Sorry guys.
 
Rick Marchand said:
All I have to say is that not everyone has the ability to win, excel, or even be mediocre... but everyone has the opportunity to enjoy what they CAN do. It should have no effect on the "best" to acknowledge the efforts of the "worst". I don't agree with lowering the standard of what being the "best" means... but it can get awful lonely for the majority who get left behind. Schools who rely on the reward system put out some of the brightest athletes and students... don't be blind to the wake of crushed souls and social deviants they leave behind.
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Good point Rick. That's a little more insightful than I generally expect to find here.

As for the subject at hand. There is an old metaphor in which the overeager student is poured a cup of tea by the master- who continues pouring as the cup overflows. When met with consternation from the student, the master replies, "how can you fill a cup that is already full?"

That's been around for centuries if not millennia. Well, it's just a common dynamic with many students and "newbies" in any discipline. Enthusiasm can manifest as overeagerness, and even lead to pomposity before significant accomplishment. It's ok as long as it is a passing phase. For some, that level of interest is unsustainable and quickly burns itself out, the neophyte then finding some completely new pursuit to "master" in six months. For others, once the initial infatuation has waned, a strong work ethic and the ability to listen asserts itself more and more. Some of these weather the tides of fortune and fate to become masters in their day. We all fall somewhere along this spectrum. We who are somewhere in the middle are lucky that there are still real masters here, whose virtues include the patience and understanding to continue helping us learn, and who encourage us to keep progressing with their constructive feedback.

In a nutshell I'd say it's always been this way and will continue to be. Like many other human traits, the internet can certainly seem to magnify it at times.
 
Let me chime in as a young person with no knife making experience who is starting on his first knife from Mr. Apelt.

WIP threads such as Nick Wheeler's and Patrice Lemée's are full of information that can benefit both new and seasoned makers alike, and serve as inspirations for those of us just starting out. (I had full page pictures printed of both a bowie by Nick and The Inquisiter by Patrice, which now hang over my bench as inspiration.)

However, respectful, polite threads started by dedicated first timers and critiqued by experienced makers are the most valuable teaching tools around.

What I, as someone trying to learn, hate is a thread featuring rushed and poorly done work, delivered in an arrogant tone. Understand however, that this type of work and delivery is not always directly the fault of the poster. Our society seems to promote instant gratification through the internet, video games etc. Of course disrespect of any kind is hard to take, but if you can communicate to these people the importance of hard work, patience, and respect, without putting them down, you can help to reverse the youth crisis of our country and world.

I am by no means saying don't give honest, critical opinions, but if you do, try to encourage them to do better. Of course, this will rarely work, but as "elders," The shape that society takes will be affected by you.

I'll conclude by thanking all the makers who continue to help and critique us newbies, please don't let your experiences with some discourage you from continuing to help those of us who are serious about learning.

Ironwood
 
Rick Marchand said:
All I have to say is that not everyone has the ability to win, excel, or even be mediocre... but everyone has the opportunity to enjoy what they CAN do. It should have no effect on the "best" to acknowledge the efforts of the "worst". I don't agree with lowering the standard of what being the "best" means... but it can get awful lonely for the majority who get left behind. Schools who rely on the reward system put out some of the brightest athletes and students... don't be blind to the wake of crushed souls and social deviants they leave behind.
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Very well said Rick. I agree many on here don't have the skill level to produce high quality WIP posts. I myself would not attempt one. I do enjoy reading almost all the posts good or bad. I have learned a lot from both. However, not one thread on here says MUST READ? Don't like it don't read it!
 
I may be one of the "offending" posters. Albeit with the most altrustic of intentions, I was eager to see some alternative suggestions for my assembly process.

I really can't call myself a "maker", I have no shop to speak of, a full-time job with the Gov't and a disabled wife at home. Devoting time to a shop just isn't in the cards right now.

But I have ideas, and designs, all just yearning to be realized. So I'm an "assembler" for now. I can still develop thought processes and learn by making mistakes and receiving the input of more advanced makers.

Do I look at the WIPs in here? Sometimes, mostly to see what other people are doing. Do I see screwups? You bet. Would I comment? Depends, but probably not. There are way too many people here that are far more eminently qualified to do so than myself.
 
each forum i've been to (and i've been on alot) seem to view this type of thing differently... from pirate 4x4 where a newbie has to have at least 1000 posts before he can post his own thread otherwise he'll be flamed into the ground with insults... to archerytalk where someone can come in with now archery experienc whatsoever and get some great suggestions for how to get things going... i never joined pirate just because of this... i started out on this forum very recently and may likely be one of the ones who spurred this topic to be created... if that's the case than i appologise... i started out just reading for about a week... then i made a wary post asking a few questions... then i started just responding to other threads... trying to keep from de-railing another member's thread... then after talking to someone local i decided to dive in... not necessarily the right thing to do... but in doing so i had hoped that if i made some grevious error, or there was a simpler way to do it, then i would be corrected... i do hope that i didn't come across as arrogant or "a cup overflowing" but i also didn't want to come across as a complete idiot who was beating on a piece of steel hoping it'll come out as a beautiful peice of cutlery... i'll be re-visiting that thread momentarily...

NickWheeler said:
I grew up with an AMAZING man for a father, with tough, rough, calloused working hands. He came from the same. Now even though he has always been extremely supportive. He ALWAYS believed in a, "pay attention, keep your mouth shut, and learn something" approach.
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i too had a father like this... but i never got to learn anything from him... instead i got my step-father who's thought process saw a garage as a place to park a car and nothing else... he used to get mad at me if i tried to build something or even work on my bike... so i don't have the background that many of you have... it is a bit of a lost art.... and more and more and a young adult in this day and age i see an older generation that is just fed up with us as a whole and doesn't feel a need to pass on the information that they have worked so hard to glean from years of work (and possibly failure) this doesn't necessarily equate to the people on here... but coming in here in my first couple of posts that was a bit of the feeling i got... i was seeing posts with a "figure it out for yourself, we did" or "we're not here to hold your hand" type of attitude... now that i've done more and more reading i've seen less and less of that... though new members are very strongly encouraged to go read a book and figure it out for themselves, then come back with any questions... but that's just not how some of us learn...

OzarkMatt said:
This. Buildalongs are fine and dandy but they are different from tutorials. Lot's of the "WIP's" out there are really buildalongs but some of them like Nicks (in)famous megathread are tutorials. I for one will start using the term "buildalong" to describe any WIP's I make.
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if need be i would gladly change the title to my thread to something more accurate... i thought the term WIP was a work in progress... as in i'm working on it and my path towards completion may change at any time depending on the advise i get... i did alot of reading of other WIP threads to see new guy and old hand threads alike... and i left some of the steps i gleaned from those threads out of my thread hoping to simplify the thread and leave out needless information...
 
I just started two weeks ago, just finished a poor second knife and am probably going to post it, more just to share? I don't have any friends or acquaintances that dabble in knife making, so there just isn't anyone to talk to about things, so I find posting here is nice, just to talk about the knife in progress and advice on how to fix mistakes/poor aspects.

I've seen other knife forums with a newbie section, perhaps this site could use one, so you professionals don't get flooded with crap knifes ;)
 
Yes, Nick, you ae an insensitive D-bag who poops on the fragile self esteem of all budding knifemakers. Next question.:D
 
I see that the thread has been closed, probably for the best.

New makers - Please don't take this thread as meaning to not post pictures and info on your knife. What was in discussion was the posting of a thread as a WIP when it was just a "Pictures of my Knife" thread.
 
NickWheeler said:
they have even more of the "Sit down, shut up, pay attention, and you just might learn something" mentality.
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Thank you, Nick. Very well said, sir.

I'm not an accomplished maker, but I am a "sit down, shut up, pay attention" type. It's proven by my join date and post count.

We should strive to inspire the more experienced makers to post more and the less experienced makers to post less.
 
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