Tired of all the pointless bickering.

[LaneMeyer]

I belong to a few forums. BF certainly has it's share of immaturity. Perhaps the most I've seen on any forum I've been a member of. Why? I don't know.
Maybe it has to do with the age of the members. I doubt these people are a good representation of the knife community as a whole.
Debate on forums is great and it helps keep overplayed topics interesting. How many times can we discuss the best Spyderco for food prep before it gets boring and people start hurling insults. It's bound to happen.
That being said, there are certainly people who seem to just lurk on BF all day waiting to come in and crap all over someone's thread, or call them names. Ultimately it discourages thoughtful conversation and causes people who actually want to contribute intelligently to leave and not come back.

I thought it was one letter, and that one letter was for "Vivacious"!

Have you changed the game to hangman?

I think the word might be vagtastic.

I'm just here to have some fun and enjoy the company of other knife enthusiasts...

I love your location BTW.

 

[Czechmate]

just hug everything out...

Don't worry, be happy. :thumbup:

 

[pinnah]

I'm frankly surprised at how many negative comments have been made about this thread pleading for civil discussion.

Shrug. You're on a path.

I've been involved in internet flame wars that ended up in court issued restraining orders. Different decade. Different protocols. Long before moderation.

Besides....

 

[Comeuppance]

Comeuppance,

You are not a lightning rod nor argumentative, so your standing in this seems to be pretty neutral. This is your thread and your soap box:

Given what you see and the underlying causes, what do you think is a solution?

Do you see a call for better behavior having an effect on those who don't behave and don't feel they need to? Or do you think something else has to happen, and what would that be?

I almost feel like you're hinting at punitive measures as an implied solution, which is certainly not my intent.

More than anything else, I made this thread in the hopes that some posters might be given pause to consider how they phrase their statements. There seems to be a dynamic that is often repeated:
- Person A asserts an opinion
- Person B proposes a conflicting opinion in a manner that enables a defensive reaction
- Person A reacts defensively
- Bickering begins

If person B just stated their opinion in a respectful manner, in the way that one likely would in person, then the discussion would likely continue on without issue.

I don't think any singular effort, policy, or call to action is going to have much of an effect. I don't even think this thread is going to have much of an effect, if at all. I think it will come down to individual people personally deciding to stop harming quality discussion, and the only way to do that, I think, is for everyone who isn't being a dick to respond to dicks in a way that doesn't gratify dickish behavior.

Don't feed the trolls, don't throw gas on the flames, etc.

If more people that ignore the unnecessarily argumentative, fewer threads get derailed. I have also found that, often, just stating "hey, let's dial this back a bit and be more respectful towards each other" is often a very effective way to allow the other party a gracious "out". Some people, including myself, will sometimes feel trapped by the tone they have established in the conversation and continue the discussion with it even if the tone is unjustified and unacceptable. Allowing someone to back out and start fresh might just be the key in many of these situations.

 

[stonproject]

Its usually the same handful of people coming into threads to spew passive aggressive comments and add nothing useful to the conversation.

Same handful who lurk here day in day out for the last couple years

 

[RX-79G]

I almost feel like you're hinting at punitive measures as an implied solution, which is certainly not my intent.

I wasn't hinting - my take on this is pretty well established, but I do not expect that to be anyone else's POV. This thread is just the most recent in a string of posts made by a wide variety of members that either make a broad call for more adult behavior, or are more pointed like Stonproject's or Udiver's posts.


I don't know if there is any point generally complaining or appealing to people that argue with even the idea of improvement if you don't at least have a suggestion on how to change the status quo.

 

[pinnah]

Comeuppance...

Serious response to your thread.

Having had the sad job of moderating several forums/listsrvs and what not in the past, here is my take.

Some disputes, as you correctly have figured out, are personality driven and have to do with civility. Posters (without whom any forum just dies a cold death) vary considerably in their desire for or tolerance for moderation. I've been on entirely unmoderated forums and hyper-moderated forums. Each have their pros and cons and will draw out the involvement of different sets of people with different cyber-skin-thickness. IME, in the absence of heavy handed moderation, the forum is left to either a) group peer pressure to get along or b) personal verbal self-defense (which descends quickly but boy it can be fun sport).

I would rate Bladeforums as loosely moderated. The mods are clearly willing to let things go quite a long way before they'll step in. At the end of the day, the moderation tone is like a squelch control and where it gets set is a decision that rests with the people who own the servers. You can complain that the level of moderation/civility is too much or too little but ultimately the only control we have has posters is whether to stick around and post or leave and contribute our posting energy to another forum. Which is a long winded way to say that the level of moderation/civility is exactly the way the owners of Bladeforums wants it.

More succinctly... Their house. Their rules.

This said, other disputes are cyclic and structural in nature. That is, no matter what the focus of the forum, there are well-known disagreements within that community that anybody with any domain experience can guess ahead of time. For example, I've known cycling forums that simply forbidden any discussion of the pros and cons of cycling helmets - a topic that has repeatedly shown the ability to cause cyclists to start throwing punches with their little chicken arms.

The issue with cyclic topics that lead to heated disputes is that the disputes transcend individuals. Replace or ban one person, and another who shares his view will show up tomorrow. One way moderators can handle such cyclic disputes is to ban the topic outright as being "off-topic", as some cycling forums do with the helmet debate.

Harkening back to your recent thread, the role of knives as weapons is a cyclic issue that knife people disagree on. Replace the people and the ideas resurface. The moderators have decided that this is a topic that is on-topic in the general forum. The disagreement is unresolvable and anytime it comes up, you can pretty much count on flame war erupting.

<shrug>

All things considered, Bladeforums is pretty calm. It's not like a politics or religion board. It hasn't produced restraining orders (that I know of). It is what it is.

The owner's house. The owner's rules.

 

[Comeuppance]

I wasn't hinting - my take on this is pretty well established, but I do not expect that to be anyone else's POV. This thread is just the most recent in a string of posts made by a wide variety of members that either make a broad call for more adult behavior, or are more pointed like Stonproject's or Udiver's posts.


I don't know if there is any point generally complaining or appealing to people that argue with even the idea of improvement if you don't at least have a suggestion on how to change the status quo.

I have made some suggestions, implied or direct:

Pretend that the other users are in the room with us when we type our responses and suddenly a lot of the things that are being said to each other are immediately identifiable as unacceptably confrontational and insulting.

Nobody has ever changed their mind because they were called an ignorant fool. Nobody has ever changed their mind because someone puffed up their chest on a forum. That is just ego gratification and ad hominem, from which nobody benefits.

Don't feed the trolls, don't throw gas on the flames, etc.

I think it will come down to individual people personally deciding to stop harming quality discussion, and the only way to do that, I think, is for everyone who isn't being a dick to respond to dicks in a way that doesn't gratify dickish behavior.

I have also found that, often, just stating "hey, let's dial this back a bit and be more respectful towards each other" is often a very effective way to allow the other party a gracious "out".

I doubt there is a singular "fix" as it involves many people and for many different reasons. It comes down to a matter of individuals making choices that harm the enjoyment of a group, but in ways that are difficult or impossible to reasonably prevent as it involves their ego. People want to assert that they are right, people want to defend their stance, people want to "win" a discussion. One can't police ego gratification, but one can ignore those who try for it or perhaps remind them that nobody on the forum cares about how big anyone elses' dick is, so they can just stop waving it around already.

 

[robgmn]

Bickering based on opinion and feelings versus discussion and debate based on facts.
Some people seem to thrive on the former.

 

[pinnah]

Comeuppance,

I used to have this on my personal web site (down for the time being).

POSTING WITH CIVILITY

Internet forums are great. But, discussing the relative merits of hiking boots or skis is one thing and discussing issues that are rooted in our deepest held personal beliefs is another. The question is, how do we discuss things while remaining civil?
Here are a few things I try to keep in mind when entering such discussions. I can't say I always succeed. In fact, I'm not even close. But, I do find these rules to be helpful.

DEBATE IDEAS, NOT PEOPLE - Few of us are really expressing new ideas. More often, we are just mouthpieces for traditions and lines of thought that have been handed down to us. Unfortunately, ideas need people to express them and people are clumsy. Old Joke...

Q: How do porcupines mate?

A: Carefully.

Internet posts can be like porcupines. Focus on the ideas, not the quills. When you read a post, look for the idea that is being expressed. If you respond to the barbs of personal attacks, you have lost focus.



NEVER, EVER PERSONALIZE - Work very hard to avoid making personal assertions about other posters. While it is true that no matter how hard you try, somebody somewhere will take personal offense to what you wrote, still make the attempt to keep it impersonal. In the other direction, ignore personal attacks made against you at all costs. It is a practical impossibility to defend your honor while engaged in a mud slinging contest. Besides, you will find when you meet over beer/coffee/whatever that most of the personal attacks weren't meant. People type and read without the aids of body language and feelings get hurt easily.



LET YOUR IDEAS DEFEND THEMSELVES - Be confident that the ideas you express have a power of their own that will make them capable of defending themselves. This will free you to resist the urge to convince others to join your point of view. Just as importantly, never criticise another's beliefs as inferior or illegitimate. If you can not affirm another's rights to hold their beliefs, you are not prepared to have a civil discussion with them.

CS Lewis said that you defend God like you defend a lion. You unlock the cage and let the lion defend itself. If you can express an idea in a civil fashion, consider it a success. Don't measure success by convincing others. This is unachievable. Instead, remember that while the person with whom you are discussing ideas won't change his or her mind, others who read and lurk will be considering the merits of both sides. Allow the idea to defend itself to those readers.



DON'T TAKE THE DEBATE BACKCHANNEL - Don't take debates to private for channels of communication like e-mail or private messages. This is to be avoided for 2 reasons. First, it changes the dynamic for the listener. The conversation moves from an open discussion in the school lunchroom to a private confrontation behind the school, so to speak. Private challenges are simply ineffectual in terms of influencing people. Worse, they remain ineffectual no matter how hard one works at trying to be reasonable and kind. I have concluded that people can hear me better in the relative safety of a public setting where my words can either be supported or challenged by our mutual peers.

Second, I find I that I do a better job of expressing myself in a positive, constructive manner when I choose to submit my words and my reputation to the accountability of public review. Putting it frankly, I generally conduct myself better in public posts.



BE WILLING TO TAKE ONE FOR THE CAUSE - When you step into a discussion of ideals, you can be guaranteed that somebody will disagree. When you do this on electronic forums, you can also pretty much guarantee that somebody will disagree with you in an inappropriate manner. This is simply the cost of doing business. You must ask yourself 2 questions at this point. First, is the idea you hold dearly important enough that you are willing to voice it while knowing that others will disagree? Second, can you sleep at night and ignore inappropriate personal attacks made against you in public? If the answer to either question is "no", then you probably aren't in the right frame of mind for the discussion.



NEVER WRESTLE WITH PIGS - It is amuses the pig and makes you look muddy. No matter how polite and tactful you try to be and no matter how hard you try to avoid personalization of attacks, you will occasionally run into people who will hold grudges and launch personal attacks at every turn. Ignore them entirely. Never respond to their posts.



DON'T BE AN ARROGANT EXPERT - In many internet forums, there is at least one guy (and it always seems to be a guy) who plays the roll of the arrogant expert. Don't be that guy.

Internet forums are great at bringing together people with common interests. One of the best things about this is the opportunity for novices to learn from experts and for experts to give back to the community by helping novices. In the vast majority of cases, it's a situation that rewarding for everybody involved. But there is also the chance for things to go wrong.

One common problem is a form of teacher burnout. After answering the same basic question for the zillionth time, the expert becomes testy to the next novice who unknowingly asks that question for the zillion and oneth time. This burnout can be exasperated when the expert feels like the novice failed to do a basic amount of research on their own before asking the question. There's an infamous internet acronym of RTFM, which grew out of this type of frustration in the context of technical support. Read the f***ing manual (or man page).

Another factor may be that the zeal for the subject that drove the expert to become an expert also makes him less tolerant of incorrect statements about his beloved subject that are made by those with less experience. In protecting the "truth", the expert can come off sounding rough.

But the most pernicious aspect of expert arrogance is how technical expertise can be used to establish a pecking order within the forum. It is very common to see a novice make a post that kicks off a long debate among the forum's experts. This has little to do with answering or correcting the novice and has everything to with establishing who the alpha males of the forum are.

Anyway you look at it, technical help and advice is great. But rude is always rude.

Dave's Backcountry Skiing Page
Copyright 2005 by David Mann

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Honestly? I find BF to be one of the more quiet and polite corners of the internet that I frequent. Threads occasionally implode, but it's by far the minority and most of the people are good folks. There are a few forumites that I just kind of ignore (not with the feature, I just don't bother much with what they've written), but I honestly can't think of anyone on here I out-and-out dislike.

 

[Comeuppance]

Pinnah, I like your Rules of Engagement for posting with civility.

We should have some kind of Geneva Convention for discussing knives, heh.

 

[KELAMA]

The OP & I, exchanged a couple of PM's related to this thread. Here is a C&P, of the last PM that I sent him. It will also be my last contribution to this thread; anything more, would just be redundant.


The blatant double standard, that exists on this forum (which allows certain member's the ability to troll), is crystal clear!

I agree wholeheartedly with you, C. At one time, I let them (the troll's), take away my enjoyment here. They trolled me, & baited me, every single opportunity they could find...

Only one problem: I put them on my Ignore List, & haven't taken their bait since. They on the other hand, have stated that they've put me on their ignore list, however, they seem to lack the self control to actually honor it, & in turn, ignore me.

In case you're wondering, exactly what these trolls goal is: in the case of RX-79G, their sole purpose, is to bait him, in the hopes of causing him to retaliate with a meltdown, & ultimately, getting him banned. Anyone in the GD, who dare challenge their demented way of thinking, will become their next target. This whole charade, is one big game to them. Heck, BLADEFORUMS, IS ONE BIG GAME (playground) TO THEM!

v Read these 3 thread's for some perspective:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1338307-Community-Ban-hammer?highlight=Ban+Hammer

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ods-in-your-signature?highlight=sanctimonious

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...s-Melting-down

^^^ HOW TROLL'S OPERATE/THINK/ARE WIRED ^^^

It doesn't take a genius, to figure out the common denominator (who the trolls are). It's abundantly clear, that these trolls love posting senseless crap, attempting to insult & bait others. If these member's respond, the only way these trolls know how to respond/behave, is to throw their typical tantrums, whine to the Mod's, & run back to the W&C, with their tails between their legs, & start typing more of their vile self-serving bravado type posts, with their like minded, ego supporters.

I don't have a problem with the W&C per se. The member's that keep their fun & personal attacks inside that forum, are fine by me. It's the member's (everyone knows who these people are (Mod's included), that bring their vile attitudes out in the General Forum- they, are the problem!

As long as these member's are allowed to continue, the status quo (trolling in GD), will continue. Thread's will be locked, civility non existent. Basically, GD has become an extension for the W&C member's to come out & troll. As long as they leave out their vile language, then everything seems to be tolerated. They know exactly how to play this game they play.

The way I see it, Comeuppance; you have a couple of choices:

1. You can either put them on your ignore list, & deal with the way things are.
OR
2. You can choose not to participate in the GD forum anymore, & use this place as a wonderful resource, to buy & sell knives, & also limit your interaction with, select "like minded' member's

FYI: as long as you learn to honor the ignore feature function, you don't have to read one word, that these senseless, babbling fools, type.

I for one appreciate what you're trying to do here...but I'm telling you, you're not going to change the wiring in these trolls demented minds...it's in their DNA. You can't fix, Troll.


HAPPY TREES!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5Wo1ubuzAE

 

[LEGION 12]

Link's aren't working.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

I hope nobody has misinterpreted this thread as an attempt to get us to all never disagree and just hug everything out.

Like all hobbies, opinions vary widely and are guaranteed to conflict here and there. I welcome and appreciate varying perspectives and opinions, as discussions from differing perspectives can be enlightening for everyone involved. I have learned many things through calm, rational disagreements.

Nobody has ever changed their mind because they were called an ignorant fool. Nobody has ever changed their mind because someone puffed up their chest on a forum. That is just ego gratification and ad hominem, from which nobody benefits.

I'm frankly surprised at how many negative comments have been made about this thread pleading for civil discussion.

Comeuppance, I don't speak to you much, but love many threads you have started and see you as am asset to this forum. I think there are a LOT of folks who have indicated i n this thread they know exactly what ur talking about. There's a few others who, well, are showing much the behavior you've explained. Some people seem to think if they don't break a rule it's OK to be an a hole. I appreciate that you have brought it up and think, other than posting it in general d, that you did so well.

 

[stonproject]

The OP & I, have exchanged a couple of PM's related to this very thread. Here is a C&P, of my last PM that I sent him. It will also be my last contribution to this thread; anything more, would just be redundant, & feed the troll's.


The blatant double standard, that exists on this forum (which allows certain member's the ability to troll), is crystal clear!

I agree wholeheartedly with you, C. At one time, I let them (the troll's), take away my enjoyment here. They trolled me, & baited me, every single opportunity they could find...

Only problem was: I put them on my Ignore List, & haven't taken their bait since. They on the other hand, put me on their ignore list, however, they lacked the self control, in turn, to ignore me.

In case you're wondering what these trolls goal is: in the case of RX-79G, their sole purpose, is to bait him to the point of causing a meltdown, & ultimately, getting him banned. Anyone in the GD, who challenges their demented way of thinking, will become their next target.

Please read these 3 thread's for some perspective:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1338307-Community-Ban-hammer?highlight=Ban+Hammer

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ods-in-your-signature?highlight=sanctimonious

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...s-Melting-down

^^^READ THESE 3 THREAD'S FOR SOME KEEN INSIGHT AS TO HOW TROLL'S OPERATE^^^

It doesn't take a genius, to figure out the common denominator (who the trolls are). It's abundantly clear, that the troll's can dish it out, but it's totally off limits, to give them a taste of their own medicine.

I don't have a problem with the W&C per se. The member's that keep their fun & personal attacks inside that forum, are fine by me. It's the member's (everyone knows who these people are (Mod's included), that bring their vile attitudes out in the General Forum- they, are the problem!

As long as these member's are allowed to continue, the status quo (trolling in GD), will continue. Thread's will be locked, civility non existent. Basically, GD has become an extension for the W&C member's to come out & troll. As long as they leave out their vile language, then everything is ok. They do, know how the game is played.

The way I see it, Comeuppance; you have a couple of choices:

1. You can either put them on your ignore list, & deal with the way things are.
OR
2. You can choose not to participate in the GD forum anymore, & use this place as a wonderful resource, to buy & sell knives, & also limit your interaction with, select "like minded' member's

FYI: as long as you learn to honor the ignore feature function, you don't have to read one word, that these senseless, babbling fools, type.

I for one appreciate what you're trying to do here...but I'm telling you, you're not going to change the wiring in these trolls demented minds...it's in their DNA.

Moderator's: if need be, I will be happy to remove the W&C "MELT DOWN" link, & instead type in the title of the thread.

HAPPY TREES!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5Wo1ubuzAE

This about sums it up. Maybe the mods can PM the trolls personally and ask them to cut the BS. Live and let live. Knife community is small enough, why should we let a handful of members be so divisive and slowly put a rift through our great community. Why should we let them run off productive members of the forum because the moderators won't deal with the small group causing issues.

 

[craytab]

The OP & I, have exchanged a couple of PM's related to this very thread. Here is a C&P, of my last PM that I sent him. It will also be my last contribution to this thread; anything more, would just be redundant, & feed the troll's.


The blatant double standard, that exists on this forum (which allows certain member's the ability to troll), is crystal clear!

I agree wholeheartedly with you, C. At one time, I let them (the troll's), take away my enjoyment here. They trolled me, & baited me, every single opportunity they could find...

Only problem was: I put them on my Ignore List, & haven't taken their bait since. They on the other hand, put me on their ignore list, however, they lacked the self control, in turn, to ignore me.

In case you're wondering what these trolls goal is: in the case of RX-79G, their sole purpose, is to bait him to the point of causing a meltdown, & ultimately, getting him banned. Anyone in the GD, who challenges their demented way of thinking, will become their next target. This whole charade, is one big game to them.

Read these 3 thread's for some perspective:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1338307-Community-Ban-hammer?highlight=Ban+Hammer

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ods-in-your-signature?highlight=sanctimonious

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...s-Melting-down

^^^READ THESE 3 THREAD'S FOR SOME KEEN INSIGHT AS TO HOW TROLL'S OPERATE/THINK^^^

It doesn't take a genius, to figure out the common denominator (who the trolls are). It's abundantly clear, that the troll's can dish it out, but it's totally off limits, to give them a taste of their own medicine.

I don't have a problem with the W&C per se. The member's that keep their fun & personal attacks inside that forum, are fine by me. It's the member's (everyone knows who these people are (Mod's included), that bring their vile attitudes out in the General Forum- they, are the problem!

As long as these member's are allowed to continue, the status quo (trolling in GD), will continue. Thread's will be locked, civility non existent. Basically, GD has become an extension for the W&C member's to come out & troll. As long as they leave out their vile language, then everything is ok. They do, know how the game is played.

The way I see it, Comeuppance; you have a couple of choices:

1. You can either put them on your ignore list, & deal with the way things are.
OR
2. You can choose not to participate in the GD forum anymore, & use this place as a wonderful resource, to buy & sell knives, & also limit your interaction with, select "like minded' member's

FYI: as long as you learn to honor the ignore feature function, you don't have to read one word, that these senseless, babbling fools, type.

I for one appreciate what you're trying to do here...but I'm telling you, you're not going to change the wiring in these trolls demented minds...it's in their DNA.

Moderator's: if need be, I will be happy to remove the W&C "MELT DOWN" link, & instead type in the title of the thread.

HAPPY TREES!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5Wo1ubuzAE

Well that is a long post! Of the working links I noticed the thread I started here about you putting a banned member's direct insult to me in your signature. The irony is drenching.

Is it June yet?

 

[KELAMA]

I lied. One last Moderator quote (one of my all-time favorites), for posterity:

Quote Originally Posted by Esav Benyamin View Post

"If you really want to be offended, you will be.

If you want somebody else to be offended, turn Tech Support into Whine & Cheese, instigate and insinuate, and stir stir stir up trouble. Now go away and leave us alone. And take your bait with you."

^^^ They do know!

 

[craytab]

I lied. One last Moderator quote (one of my all-time favorites), for posterity:

Quote Originally Posted by Esav Benyamin View Post

"If you really want to be offended, you will be.

If you want somebody else to be offended, turn Tech Support into Whine & Cheese, instigate and insinuate, and stir stir stir up trouble. Now go away and leave us alone. And take your bait with you."

^^^ They do know!

Good to see you taking the high road Kelama. Not worth my time to respond.

 

[Comeuppance]

Edit: Nevermind. Decided to just report the troll and move this right along.