To forge or not to forge, is one way any better?

Interesting discussion.
I enjoy forging and believe history proves it makes a better blade. Forged crankshafts and pistons perform at higher rpm's and longer than cast parts. If the grain in the steel is lined up and reduced in size with proper (I repeat "proper") forging and thermal cycles the part will outperform and outlast a "run of the mill" part with the same heat treatment. Its the same with blade steel. Many times the steel the UPS man drops off could use some thermal cycles to make a better knife. Ive bought steel that had so much stress in it that it warped like crazy coming out of the quench. The same steel with some normalizing cycles came out straight. Paul Bos complains all the time about stainless warping. A good digital oven is a nice tool to have for the stock removal maker as well as the forger.
I like both methods but get bored quickly doing too much stock removal. Forging has unlimited possibilities and seems to have that romance I thirst for.
Actually if I had to quit forging I would still make knives but I would concentrate on making very precise small gents folders. There are many crafts related to knives that we never get time to learn. Imagine making knives that are so high quality that only art galleries and jewelry stores can afford to retail them. I would love to train under a goldsmith or silversmith for a year. I dont think I need to forge that calibur of knife but a knowledge of metalurgy and heat treatment methods that we learn from forging are needed.
 
Bruce Bump said:
Interesting discussion.
I enjoy forging and believe history proves it makes a better blade. Forged crankshafts and pistons perform at higher rpm's and longer than cast parts. If the grain in the steel is lined up and reduced in size with proper (I repeat "proper") forging and thermal cycles the part will outperform and outlast a "run of the mill" part with the same heat treatment. Its the same with blade steel. Many times the steel the UPS man drops off could use some thermal cycles to make a better knife. Ive bought steel that had so much stress in it that it warped like crazy coming out of the quench. The same steel with some normalizing cycles came out straight. Paul Bos complains all the time about stainless warping. A good digital oven is a nice tool to have for the stock removal maker as well as the forger.
I like both methods but get bored quickly doing too much stock removal. Forging has unlimited possibilities and seems to have that romance I thirst for.
Actually if I had to quit forging I would still make knives but I would concentrate on making very precise small gents folders. There are many crafts related to knives that we never get time to learn. Imagine making knives that are so high quality that only art galleries and jewelry stores can afford to retail them. I would love to train under a goldsmith or silversmith for a year. I dont think I need to forge that calibur of knife but a knowledge of metalurgy and heat treatment methods that we learn from forging are needed.
Click to expand...
Bruce,
What percentage of value, would you give forging, relative to heat treating in there relationship to the quality of the final product?
If you heat cycle all the steels you use in stock removal, can you still produce a quality blade without touching it with a hammer?
Or is forging, the factor of most import.

Fred <Bethel Ridge Forge>
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Or is forging, the factor of most import?
Click to expand...

I have my own views on that question.
I believe that the use of a forge alone makes me a better man for deciding to walk this less worn road.

I think that even the moment I fire up my forge I set the tone right then and there for being more aware of what I am doing and what designs I aim to make.

CONCIDER:
When I turn on many of my power tools used in making a knife, they dont really care how long they run with me around or not.
I can switch-on my grinder, and then turn away from it and walk back into the house to eat breakfast.
It doesn't matter at that point, my grinder will get along fine running in an empty shop.

But when fire-up my forge and slip the steel in, I set a timer going in my mind.
I have forced a limit to the things I can fool around doing, or even thinking about.
The fire of the forge forces attention to it'self.

I dont think that the being a bladesmith is really all about the blade alone.
In this day and age, there are a lot more easy ways to end up with a sharp, pointy shaft of steel. (Got plenty in the kitchen already)

But the fire of the forge connects the bladesmith with history.
The bladesmith of today takes his place in a line of men who worked with fire and metal going back to the dawn of our history.

And yet when I think about it, being a bladesmith is not all about our history.
It's not just an image to me of; "This is what men were like in the past".
For perhaps just walking this path and what it means to me has changed me and the way I look at many things around me too.
Thus the bladesmith's craft with his forge and hammer is still working change in this current modern world too.
A change I believe is for the better.

Does forge work always end in the bladesmith's blade being "better" than what he could have reached with just grinding alone and the same heat-treatments?....No, I dont think so at all.

Being a bladesmith is about more than just ending up with a knife.
It's about the path he takes to end up with that knife that brings the tip of the hat from people when they learn of the Bladesmith's efforts.
 
The steel is hot
The coals glow
The fairies dance
And in my soul
I begin to see
Its not the hammer
Or the arm
The mystery is in the fire.

When but a lad
I oft did stare
At glowin' coals
And shimrin&#8217; air.
Too young to know
Of man&#8217;s desires
I understood
The mystery is in the fire.

And now I&#8217;ve grown
And can do my will
Love my women
And drink my fill
Even of these
I often tire
One thing remains
The mystery is in the fire

There is a thing
That has no name
It lives within
The heart of man
It has no age
Nor birth nor death
And burns the same
In all of us
The mystery is in the fire

Stacy E. Apelt
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Bruce,
What percentage of value, would you give forging, relative to heat treating in there relationship to the quality of the final product?
If you heat cycle all the steels you use in stock removal, can you still produce a quality blade without touching it with a hammer?
Or is forging, the factor of most import.

Fred <Bethel Ridge Forge>
Click to expand...

Hi Fred, To give a percentage would be difficult but racing engine builders will choose forged over cast because of strength. The forged blade that is reduced from a 2" x 2" bar will have longer straighter grain than a stock removal blade forged from 1/4" stock and will be stronger. Im not convinced it will hold a better edge though, just stronger.

You can most certainly produce a quality blade and never strike it with a hammer. Im just convinced that a forged blade is superior.
 
Great truth there Stacy! I think I really enjoyed forging more when I used coal and had to learn how to read the fire it made. Turning the coal into coke so that it is a pure fire is work but when you make it as you go and save some for the next day then you never run out. Some folks think the coal stinks, but I always like to smell it; probably because it takes me way back to when I was 5-10 years old and crankig the forge blowers for my Dad and Grandfather. Seems like many don't put much stock into watching the colors run as being a good heat treat, however my grandpa did that on the picks for folks when he sharpened their picks. They seemed to work really well. He would heat them and pound them to a point (shape) then quench and temper. I have many old blacksmith books from years ago and they all show a color chart and heat range. We depend on a lot of "gagetry" any more, but at the same time I personally feel that some of the modern day conveniences rob us of a lot of skills. Coal is hard to find and expensive to buy and I still have several coal forges around and a little coal but mostly use my propane that starts with an electronic device and/or a lighted news paper unlike using the kerosene with the coal. As Stacy stated; there is a mystery in fire. After all folks have learned, still no one knows what makes fire burn. They can name the things required to have a fire, but can not tell you how/why it burns. Seems to me that anything we make with our hands requires of us to give someting of what makes us who we are, some speak of it as "our personal touch" making it feel more alive even if it is still an inanimate object. I use to make jewelry and did oil paintings and with both of those as with knives still had the things about them that I did in my own way. We are emotional about the the things in our lives even if it is a classic car or bike we rebuilt---it still causes us to have a different feeling than a new one we just purchased off a dealers lot.
 
When I forge a blade the steel gets to talk to me, it shows me itself and what it wants and needs, any flaws are exposed as you help the metal find its place. Some how I can start out with 2 identical pieces of steel and I never end up with the same knife and I often end up with a knife not quite like the one I started to make. Not because I can't forge the steel to my will, but because the steel and hammer shows me another path and form. My knives are a tribute to my life with steel and I let the steel speak.
 
The discussion is not between forged or cast, it is between forged and stock removal. There is no way in hell you are going to make a stronger blade merely because you forged it. Two blades from the same bar of steel, one forged, one made by stock removal, both given the same heat treat, are going to equal in all respects. Modern steel bar from the mill is, in essence, forged by the rollers that shape it into a bar. How much more do you think you are going to do just because you hammer on it? Grain size is controled by heat, not by a hammer.
 
It will be stronger simply because I believe in it more. If an excellent smith was to forge a great blade and heat treated it with care, then an engineer and cnc programmer were to set up a machine to produce 10,000 exact copies and heat treat them all in a stainless steel chamber with every conditioned controlled. I would always want the one that was forged because it would have more soul.
 
Put me in the forge camp too. Something about the hammer and fire just adds a Mystical element...real or imagined!
 
Bear in mind Bruce, that forged granks, rods, and pistons are not made in any way that most bladesmiths recognize as forging. The inductrial drop forging process is radically different!

Also, many parts, like crank journals are ground and machined after the forging operation forms the basic billet.

The reason forging is considered superior in this application is because of the metal processing that goes into the part. Casting a part means melting the metal and pouring it into a mold. As the molten steel cools, particles segregate, making for irregular steel that has a very large lumpy grain, massive carbide stringers, and other undesireable qualities. With industrial forging, on the other hand, the billet is never melted, and so it cannot segregate anywhere near as much.

Bear in mind also that industrially forged engine parts are shaped in just one, or maybe two heats in massive machinery. Can any of us here claim to be able to forge a decent sized blade completely to shape in just one or two heats???

No, I must disagree with the whole concept of equating forged blades to forged bottom end motor parts. If this were a valid comparison, then stock removal blades wouldn't be compared to cast parts, but rather to "billet" or "machined" parts, as they are fromed from a stock removal method, and are usually recognized as at least equal to forged, and often regarded as superior.
 
Wow! :eek: I am absolutely speechless in amazement! How in the world can this topic still manage to get a thread to go to two pages? The only way I could possibly imagine a subject so entirely exhausted to even still register on the radar these days is if the name &#8220;Anna Nicole&#8221; were in the title. ;)

My previously referenced article was not intended as an editorial opinion like some of my other writings, it was based upon basic facts that still need to be reckoned with. That being said, I agree with much of Allan&#8217;s reasoning as to why I am definitely one of the forging guys; I forge for my benefit not the steels.

As a bladesmith I would say to just look at all the silliness bladesmiths have burdened us with and you can see how if you walk into any show to buy a knife your chances of getting a better blade are much greater with the stock removers.
 
LRB said:
The discussion is not between forged or cast, it is between forged and stock removal. There is no way in hell you are going to make a stronger blade merely because you forged it. Two blades from the same bar of steel, one forged, one made by stock removal, both given the same heat treat, are going to equal in all respects. Modern steel bar from the mill is, in essence, forged by the rollers that shape it into a bar. How much more do you think you are going to do just because you hammer on it? Grain size is controled by heat, not by a hammer.
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My thoughts exactly. No stock removal knifemaker I'm aware of uses 'cast' materials. All of it, in some way, shape, or form was forged to the shape it was received by the knifemaker in.

I fully respect and understand the desire and importance of forging (even though I struggle to develop the skills), but I have no romantic views of one producing a superior blade over the other.
For the record, how much carbon is lost due to the multiple heats required during forging by comparison to the almost 0% carbon loss through stock removal? Could the argument not be made that, if proper normalizing cycles under controlled atmospheres were observed, the stock removal blade would inherently offer a superior outcome simply due to this one factor alone? I don't believe for a moment that EITHER argument holds much water, but it certainly provides a strong 'devil's advocacy' position, no?
 
"As a bladesmith I would say to just look at all the silliness bladesmiths have burdened us with and you can see how if you walk into any show to buy a knife your chances of getting a better blade are much greater with the stock removers."

Kevin, I think your painting with a mighty broad brush when making this statement about forgers.

This may have a ring of truth, when it comes to a new smith, but anyone who has been doing this for any length of time should possess a fairly sound knowledge of what they are doing.

I believe, as someone who forges, I have a better overall knowledge of steel processes than a maker who uses flat stock to grind their blades then sends them out to be heat treated.
You may end up with a fine blade in this way, but that does not mean you possess knowledge.
Some where along the way a person who aspires to be a forger of blades, must wade through the myth and deception and find truth and fact, in order to perform his craft in an "honest manner"
I have read many of your writings; they have helped to lift the fog for many aspiring makers.

Fred
 
I have to list myself in the forging crowd as well. I started out as a blacksmith, so for me it was a natural progression to forge a blade. I would rather "play" at my forge any day instead of stand at my grinder, but both are required for a blade. Even the best smith I have seen has had to do some stock removal, even if it is only filing and hand sanding.

Does it make a better blade? I used to think so. It is funny, I started college as an engineering student. I still do not know why I threw out so much of the metallurgy I learned when I started making knives. I was told, and I read that this technique can produse a blade that ......(fill in your own blank). Then I got a chance to see a great knifemaker give a talk about what really happens inside the steel. I woke up again. I started to look back at the classes I took, I started to look up the information put out by the steel industries, I realized I did NOT know more about a steel than the people who designed the steel I was using, no matter how much I wanted to be. I started paying attention to the temperatures they recommended and got a decent quench oil. many of the problems I had started to disappear.

I love my forge, I can do things there that would be an absolute waste if I was doing stock removal. I can also make a knife for someone in as little as three hours at a SCA event or a ren faire. No electricity needed.

Ken
 
B Finnigan said:
A belt grinder can not do this with a chunk of wrecking bar. (It's not finished yet)
survival21-web.jpg


But I think a bladesmith should experiement with both methods. I have made several smaller knives that it just didn't make sense to try to forge them.

I always add this caveat whenever this subject comes up. Whether you grind, forge, build kits or collect you are welcome in shop any time. The forge is hot and the beer is cold.;)
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Is that handle hollow Brent? That is the coolest survival knife I have ever seen.All the more reason to pound steel.That and my grinder doesnt quite keep me as warm in the winter :)
Who am I kidding I have wanted an anvil since Wile E.Coyote got one dropped on his head :D
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
But what about thermal cycling (where's Ed Fowler, I'd like to get his take on this)? LRB, are you a stock removal type maker (sorry, haven't been to your site, need to look it up)?

Kevin, I'm lost. Why are my chances much greater with getting a better blade at any show if it is a stock removal blade?
Click to expand...
 
ib2v4u said:
If an excellent smith was to forge a great blade and heat treated it with care, then an engineer and cnc programmer were to set up a machine to produce 10,000 exact copies and heat treat them all in a stainless steel chamber with every conditioned controlled. I would always want the one that was forged because it would have more soul.
Click to expand...

I would too. But to be fair, I don't think we're talking about 10,000 copies of anything. Nor can you compare cast parts to either forging or stock-removal in my opinion. When I think of custom stock-removal knives, that means made by hand. A minimum of jigs, if any. The maker's eyes and hands do the "programming" directly. It certainly makes sense that forging almost forces you to think more about thermal cycles and HT and all that; but that's not to say a SR guy doesn't take note as well. I think the best SR makers are pretty darn picky about HT.

I'm not choosing sides, because I'm learning stock-removal with an eye toward moving into forging. Forging to me is a whole 'nother level of skill and interest, which fascinates me in many ways. I admit, I take a bit of umbrage at the implication that ground blades automatically have less "soul" than forged ones. Although my knowledge and skill is far behind all of yours, I assure you, my blood, sweat and time are spent carefully, always trying to do the very best I can. With as much information as I can gather and understand, and certainly as much soul as I have to offer.

Thank you all, as always, for an interesting, heartfelt and informative discussion. I know this ground has been trod before, but I learn something every time.
 
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