To forge or not to forge, is one way any better?

I originally got into forging for one reason: Damascus. I was quite happy grinding knives out of 1095 bar stock, but I saw some pictures of this strange material called pattern welded steel, and I wanted to make it myself.
Aside from damascus, the reason I forge is that some of the steels I use just aren't available in flat stock. W2 and L6, mainly.
I'm convinced what makes a good knife or bad knife is the heat treating, NOT whether it was forged or not. (Edge geometry makes a difference too.)
Someone in this thread wondered if stock removal is a short cut. I would say, it's not a shortcut, it's more efficient. People say forging is less wasteful, because less of the steel ends up as dust on the floor. (true, but even at that, some of the steel that would end up as dust under the grinder, instead ends up as scale next to the anvil)
You MIGHT be saving a little steel by forging, but let's look at the areas where you're spending more:

Propane or coal. If you're grinding, you don't need either one. (unless you want to use one for heat treating)

Fuel/electricity for thermal cycling and annealing. Precision ground stock is all ready to go, no thermal treatments needed besides hardening and tempering.

Time. Time to forge, time to thermal cycle, time to anneal.

And you still have to grind a forged blade.

Being a bladesmith does not automatically make you a knowledgeable heat treater.

Lastly, steel is an inanimate object; it does not have a soul! It might have "soul" but it doesn't have "a soul".
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
And don't even get me started about what they are trying to teach my kids at school these days:rolleyes:
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Then teach them yourself. I'm sure you could do a better job. :)
There's already lot's of folks doing that, for just that reason.
 
Shing said:
In the old days, the only way to make steel good enough for a knife was to forge it from a piece of raw high carbon steel. Old high carbon steel was either shear steel or the newer cast steel. Both had inclusions, numerous impurities, inconsistencies, slag, small holes and faults as a result of how it was made. The bladesmith when he got the raw steel from the steel maker had to forge it to get rid of all these things in order to get sound steel much as a modern Japanese swordsmith has to when he recieves tamahagane from a smelter.

But steel from a modern mill will not have any of these problems. It has been hot rolled or forged from a large ingot weighting many tons. The steel will have to meet specification before it can leave the mill and has none of the faults, inconsistencies and impurities found in old steel making methods. Thus the modern smith in his forgings is a solution to a none existant problem.
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Shing, you bring an interesting point to mind. Often people interchangably use "forging" with "forge folding" or pattern welding. The idea behind the ancient process of folding was to homogenize the steel. I have been noticing a disturbing condition in many samples of steel of differing alloys on the market these days, an inconsistant band running right down the center of the stock reduced by the milling but leftover from the casting. This as well as some other inclusions could be better dealt with by folding and welding than by just simple reduction. So if a smith is doing these operations (doing them well enough not to add more problems, that is) an argument may be possible that the steel can be improved. But the follow up question needs to be whether the improvment would ever be noticeable in any practical knife use. Also with newer steel production processes many of these casting problems are not present to begin with.
 
Phillip Patton said:
Then teach them yourself. I'm sure you could do a better job. :)
There's already lot's of folks doing that, for just that reason.
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I am fortunate enough not to have too much to complain about as far as the school itself, it is a very rural well run facility with more traditional thinking, but they still have to work out of textbooks that have rather interesting conclusions. I rather enjoy sitting with my kids and pointing out entire paragraphs of misinformation in their history books, and giving them points to challenge their teachers with the next day, that is how I found out they still have some good teachers... many had to agree;) .
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
I am fortunate enough not to have too much to complain about as far as the school itself, it is a very rural well run facility with more traditional thinking, but they still have to work out of textbooks that have rather interesting conclusions. I rather enjoy sitting with my kids and pointing out entire paragraphs of misinformation in their history books, and giving them points to challenge their teachers with the next day, that is how I found out they still have some good teachers... many had to agree;) .
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That's good. The public schools around here are atrocious in some ways. (or so I've heard. Never went to them myself. They don't teach bladesmithing, either. :D )
 
I had the unfortunate experience of having a teacher who is NEVER wrong, about anything! She likes to spew "facts" to the class and didn't like me pointeing out her errors, the first on that I called her on was her statement that stainless steel is simply a very pure form of steel, you get it by refining steel until it's so pure it doesn't rust. Needless to say I took umbrage at this blatant misinformation but I know adults don't like being corrected so I waited till after class to bring it up. Her response? "Well I have a college degree, so I think I may know what I'm talking about.":jerkit: I hate people like that, needless to say I didn't bother waiting till after class when she made factually incorrect statements. Also in her opinion, if it's in the textbook, it's some sort of decree from god that cannot be debated, and don't you even dare try to. Things like saying outsourcing is actually good for our country. :barf:
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
After forging blades for most of my life, and observing the business all that time, I stand completely behind my statement. I must also say that I am not talking about the makers new to forging when I say it. The revered old timers and established smiths are the ones who have inflicted us with the most silliness. I cringe when I get the feeling that folks may automatically accept what I say simply because I have a master smith stamp to hit my knives with; that is how we got to where we are when I say that your chances are better with a stock remover.
A person who forges will have the opportunity to have a better overall knowledge of processes, what he does with that opportunity is another story. If he misses the opportunity to learn on his own because he blindly follows a teaching or a particular party line, and in his blind faith or hubris believes his improvised methods are superior, then the guy sending his blades out to another with the specialized tools and the knowledge to use them will have the upper hand, whether the hapless hammerer realizes it or not.

Because of the intimate and massive interaction with heat and its effects on steel the bladesmith does indeed have the potential to obtain skills that will allow him to make a better blade than most folks who grind, but because of our need to believe in fantastic magical concepts and erroneous goals in order to feel better we have turned the tables on ourselves. It is very seductive to believe that by simply using a hammer you can automatically make a better blade because the truth is not very appealing, that the better blade will come from working with hot steel day in and day out for years in order to produce a person that can make a better blade. I am very confidant that I could make a better blade out of 1095 or O1 than the average stock remover (with or without a hammer), but I am also aware that many stock removers would easily surpass me with many of the stainless alloys since they are not part of my day in and day out heating routines. Once again -all that heating improves the maker much more than the steel.

Flip open a copy of any popular knife publication and find all the statements that stretch credibility to the breaking point, then take note of whether it was a stock remover or a bladesmith who offered those pearls of wisdom. ;) Perhaps if stock removers were as obsessed with proving their superiority they too would be pulling as many “interesting” metallurgical concepts from their colon, but so far they seem to be happy just to make nice knives and let the product speak for itself. One has to respect that.
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One of my sisters favorite sayings; "Everyone in the U.S. is in sales".

That is both a sad and scary observation.
 
The old Sheffield bladesmiths, (I grew up in Sheffield, England) said you put extra quality in the steel by "flogging" i.e. forging it. They were referring to shear steel or cast steel. Shear steel was improved by forging it more to make "double shear steel" where shear steel made by forging faggots of blister steel bars was faggoted again and forged for a second time hence double shear steel.

I think forging steel to make it retain its edge better and make it tougher is not really practised anymore in metalurgy. The current appraoch seems to be in finding new alloys and processing like the CPM process rather than take a piece of solid steel and heating and forging it to improve its properties. I don't know if its easier to make steel have specfic properties by this method or its impractical or too inconsistent.

I think if it was possible to use forging in this way, a consistent way of doing it could be developed to produce steels or steel components with specific properties at a viable cost.

I have never had bad steel fortunately although my engineer supplier who sold me some O1 said Sheffield made O1 was the best because it got the hardess and toughest while O1 made in other parts of the world were more brittle. I don't know how true this is although I do have a preferrence for O1 made in Sheffield but its not always available.
 
Bruce Bump said:
Interesting discussion.
I enjoy forging and believe history proves it makes a better blade. Forged crankshafts and pistons perform at higher rpm's and longer than cast parts. If the grain in the steel is lined up and reduced in size with proper (I repeat "proper") forging and thermal cycles the part will outperform and outlast a "run of the mill" part with the same heat treatment. Its the same with blade steel. Many times the steel the UPS man drops off could use some thermal cycles to make a better knife. Ive bought steel that had so much stress in it that it warped like crazy coming out of the quench. The same steel with some normalizing cycles came out straight. Paul Bos complains all the time about stainless warping. A good digital oven is a nice tool to have for the stock removal maker as well as the forger.
I like both methods but get bored quickly doing too much stock removal. Forging has unlimited possibilities and seems to have that romance I thirst for.
Actually if I had to quit forging I would still make knives but I would concentrate on making very precise small gents folders. There are many crafts related to knives that we never get time to learn. Imagine making knives that are so high quality that only art galleries and jewelry stores can afford to retail them. I would love to train under a goldsmith or silversmith for a year. I dont think I need to forge that calibur of knife but a knowledge of metalurgy and heat treatment methods that we learn from forging are needed.
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I don't know much about knife making, (wish I did)...but as far as crankshafts go, I believe that the "billet crank" is the top end as far as strength and performance go....

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0308_crankshafts_how_to/index1.html
 
If you have the facilities to forge, why not give it a try? As with everything else in life, if it's for you -you'll enjoy it. Don't do something you don't like.
 
flatgrinder said:
If you have the facilities to forge, why not give it a try? As with everything else in life, if it's for you -you'll enjoy it. Don't do something you don't like.
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Thats the message I carry to people.
I think that everyone who calls himself a "knife maker' should make sure that they have forged a blade once in their lives.

It is a way to become united with each other.
 
bladsmth said:
Can you take a pile of steel bars and grind them into damascus?
Can you grind at 3" of 1.5" round bar and make a bowie?
Can you grind a 1.25" wide bar into a 1.5" bar?
If you make a mistake and grind away too much, can you re-grind it back the way it was?


These are a few of the places forging shines.

The reason to forge is metal control. You decide where the metal is to go and how it is to be shaped. The maximum efficiency in waste control is ending up with exactly the same amount of steel, just in a different shape.

Besides all that.....
FORGING IS JUST PLAIN FUN !!!
Stacy

Edited to add:
Every forged blade still needs good grinding to complete it. Both need proper HT.
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I believe that Stacy: ----------------:thumbup:
 
Well, I dunno. So far I've only done stock removal, but I don't have a belt grinder, or half the tools I see mentioned often-

I've got an ancient 6 in spindle arm grinder, a drill, and a belt sander in a vise for some rough handle work. I've got 6 files and piles of sandpaper and sanding blocks I made. I've got a propane torch, a big ass grill, and a toaster oven. But I *think*, thinking about it, that I'd make a hiking filet knife out of my recycled saw steel, in fact, I went out halfway through this post and marked up the two saw blades I'd annealed for some filet and hiking knives, got 5 cut out and 3 "rough ground". (these are old crosscut saws from a garage sale, not circular saw blades)

I also want to forge, though. But I'm not so sure that annealing, cutting, grinding, normalizing, hand filing, and heat treating a blade that started out as something else is really all that much different from forging- at least in terms of soul.

Maybe I'll change my mind if my forge works out and I work out an anvil.
 
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