To forge or not to forge, is one way any better?

[Allan Molstad]

I take a bit of umbrage at the implication that ground blades automatically have less "soul" than forged ones. .

Steel is dead.
It knows nothing, it feels nothing, it is just a creation of man.
It knows not fear, faith, joy, or hope.
It falls to the skill of the bladesmith to bring such parts of himself to his craft.

If it be true that the work of my forge's fire is said to carry with it a soul, be aware that this that we call it's "soul" is but a reflection of the bladesmith's own.

 

[bodfish]

While I haven't made many knives, I've been doing it for a long time, as the spirit moves me. No way can I duplicate the masters with the hammer, but I still make music the way Michaelangelo did. He chipped away everything except what his mind eye saw as the finished work.

All true artists work for an audience of one, themselves. They all leave a bit of themselves with each piece they make, whether they type it, paint it, write it, forge it, or grind it. Whether it starts as a billet or a flat the artist is still responsible for the finished work. Is stock removal a short cut? Not unless you think powered forging hammers are shortcuts, too. And even farming out your heat treatment with the exotics may be suspect to the purist.

Having said that, I'll still try and learn to forge. Why? To get closer to the source. If I could make my own steel, I'd even start there. I think all artists feel the same.

 

[GibsonFan]

Well-said, bodfish and Allan Molstad.

 

[Allan Molstad]

Is stock removal a short cut? .

Oh yes, it would save me a LOT of time if I just ordered some steel stock over the phone and cut the profile with my bandsaw.
And the final knife does not care one way or the other too.

So this must mean that the bladesmith that struggles for hours dealing with his fire, steel, and hammers, is driven to do so for other reasons than just seeking a better blade.
I can spend a long time forging some steel ball bearings down into a flat shape of a knife, until they get to about the same point where a stock removal guy with a band saw would be starting.
Why?...Why do so much work just to get to the same place where another guy starts out at?

As far as I can tell, starting a knife by sticking some steel into a fire has little to do with being in a hurry.
It seem a good Bladesmith is a person who is not in a big hurry to finish the story of each knife.

When I just order steel ready to grind, (and I do from time to time) I end up starting with that steel a story thats mostly about "the knife"

But when I grab a ball bearing and start to heat it up in my forge I start a story thats mostly about , well....it mostly about "me".

Yes , there are many ways, many tools, and many things we all can do that can clearly be called "short cuts"...and there is nothing wrong with a good short cut. (we all use em)
But the growth we seek somtimes however is never really found while doing the short cuts...rather I believe there is a greater chance to grow as a knife maker when face a challenge that we did not need to face and turn aside from the easy short cut to walk a different and maybe not as easy path.

 

[bodfish]

So this must mean that the bladesmith that struggles for hours dealing with his fire, steel, and hammers, is driven to do so for other reasons than just seeking a better blade.

But when I grab a ball bearing and start to heat it up in my forge I start a story thats mostly about , well....it mostly about "me".

Y..rather I believe there is a greater chance to grow as a knife maker when face a challenge that we did not need to face and turn aside from the easy short cut to walk a different and maybe not as easy path.

I have no argument with you on that at all. However, must a painter make his own canvas? His own paint, even, to be considered an artist? Ridiculous.
Would I be in a higher class if I made my own steel? It can be done, but an inferior product would naturally result.

Is your goal the best knife made (for it's purpose) or artistic expression? If it's for the former, then obsedian knives are much sharper than any steel, and precision surgery is done with them when nothing else will do. If it's for the latter, then it's *your* path, and only you can decide if you are on it.

For all others, your path may not be *their* path, and they may be marching to the tune of a different drummer. You have a finite life, as do we all. If buying canvas, ready made, will allow more masterpieces to be shared, then who are you to argue?

Only you (and I) can decide which trade-offs we can bear, and which we cannot. Your priorities are not mine, but I emphathize with your struggle. We all have it, all the time.

I wish you great success on your journey, and hope you will feel likewise for those that march to a different tune.

Mike

 

[Allan Molstad]

must a painter make his own canvas? His own paint, even, to be considered an artist?

Every once in a while...

Every once in a while the painter should put aside what comes so easy from the store and remind himself of the struggles painters in the past had to deal with.

Every once in a while a bladesmith who works a gas forge in his heated shop, should turn off the gas, step outside, and remind himself what the smell of a coal fire is really like.

Every once in a while a Stock removal knifemaker should feel the sting of a hammer hitting hot steel, and hear the ring of the anvil.

But you may ask, "Why Allan?, whats the point in doing that?"
And my answer would be this:

On this forum we get a lot of questions from people doing a GOOGLE search looking to find someone to ask about sharpening a knife.
Many such people want to know what sharpener is the best to get when you dont have a clue how to sharpen a knife at all?

They find many answers to their questions here on our forum.
I cant really judge what others have told such people to try, all I can say is that my answer to such questions is always about the same.

I believe that it is worth the time to take a sharpening stone and learning to sharpen a knife free-hand first.
I believe that when you turn back the clock like this and learn the most basic way to sharpen a knife, that this will make you a better person .
You will understand how a knife gets sharp.
You will see the point in the many jigs and power sharpeners that are sold in the stores.
You will be able to use any sharpener in the future in a more correct way, and such tools will work better in your hands.

Just like with bladesmithing, steping closer to some of our history can help make us better people walking into the future.

 

[bodfish]

Abolutely correct. I believe that I know more, have more experience with, and do a better job of sharpening an edged tool than anyone I've met or read about. Why do I think this? 40 years of experience grounded by a teacher that was a master at it. I don't use jigs, I don't use any of the new stuff (except diamond hones due to the efficient use of my time). All my customers say the same thing.

"This knife is sharper than a razor blade. How did you do it?" I show them the proper way to do it, but most can't duplicate. My guess is that after so many years of doing it, the repetition has hard-wired it into my brain, and I don't remember the learning curve I had to climb. Is this art? maybe........

I also agree with learning the old ways of doing things, mostly to appreciate the new. So yes, for this reason I'd like to learn to forge. At my age, I can't afford the years to be self taught. You want a student?

I doubt if I can make a better blade by forging, but I know what you're talking about when you say 'forging gives a blade soul', and that would be payment enough, to experience just once, to make the journey profitable.

My other comments still stand, however.......I don't judge how a piece was created. It only has to spark emotion in me, just by looking, for it to speak, murmuring softly in my soul.......

"This is art."

 

[KnifeHead]

I'm no expert but I have done both methods. Both can be frustrating and enjoyable. Both produce sharp and pointy things that cut well and keep doing so.

At the end of the day, everybody is in the stock removal catagory at some level. The lore and gushy stories are good reading though.

 

[Allan Molstad]

. At my age, I can't afford the years to be self taught. "

They once asked Mother Teresa how hard was it to have picked up off the street some 50,000 people and saved their lives?

Her answer was; "Only the first one was hard"

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

My thoughts exactly. No stock removal knifemaker I'm aware of uses 'cast' materials. All of it, in some way, shape, or form was forged to the shape it was received by the knifemaker in.
...

David Boye did offer the cast “dendritic” blades, but there is a great lesson to be learned in this as well. I don’t recall anybody saying that they wouldn’t cut (do we still remember “cutting” when talking about knives?) in fact I heard feedback about the aggressiveness of the edge due to the dendrites. It is interesting to note that dendritic structure is one of those nasties that all that rolling at the mill is supposed to get rid of so that steel can have strength/toughness, and yet here was a guy intentionally putting them into his blades, and people were having no problem using them as knives (tools for cutting things that is), hhmmmm. This prompts me to revisit the question of why the only areas where forging seems to be superior has so little to do with using a knife like a knife?

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Kevin, I think your painting with a mighty broad brush when making this statement about forgers.

This may have a ring of truth, when it comes to a new smith, but anyone who has been doing this for any length of time should possess a fairly sound knowledge of what they are doing.

I believe, as someone who forges, I have a better overall knowledge of steel processes than a maker who uses flat stock to grind their blades then sends them out to be heat treated.
You may end up with a fine blade in this way, but that does not mean you possess knowledge.
Some where along the way a person who aspires to be a forger of blades, must wade through the myth and deception and find truth and fact, in order to perform his craft in an "honest manner"
I have read many of your writings; they have helped to lift the fog for many aspiring makers.
Fred

After forging blades for most of my life, and observing the business all that time, I stand completely behind my statement. I must also say that I am not talking about the makers new to forging when I say it. The revered old timers and established smiths are the ones who have inflicted us with the most silliness. I cringe when I get the feeling that folks may automatically accept what I say simply because I have a master smith stamp to hit my knives with; that is how we got to where we are when I say that your chances are better with a stock remover.
A person who forges will have the opportunity to have a better overall knowledge of processes, what he does with that opportunity is another story. If he misses the opportunity to learn on his own because he blindly follows a teaching or a particular party line, and in his blind faith or hubris believes his improvised methods are superior, then the guy sending his blades out to another with the specialized tools and the knowledge to use them will have the upper hand, whether the hapless hammerer realizes it or not.

Because of the intimate and massive interaction with heat and its effects on steel the bladesmith does indeed have the potential to obtain skills that will allow him to make a better blade than most folks who grind, but because of our need to believe in fantastic magical concepts and erroneous goals in order to feel better we have turned the tables on ourselves. It is very seductive to believe that by simply using a hammer you can automatically make a better blade because the truth is not very appealing, that the better blade will come from working with hot steel day in and day out for years in order to produce a person that can make a better blade. I am very confidant that I could make a better blade out of 1095 or O1 than the average stock remover (with or without a hammer), but I am also aware that many stock removers would easily surpass me with many of the stainless alloys since they are not part of my day in and day out heating routines. Once again -all that heating improves the maker much more than the steel.

Flip open a copy of any popular knife publication and find all the statements that stretch credibility to the breaking point, then take note of whether it was a stock remover or a bladesmith who offered those pearls of wisdom. Perhaps if stock removers were as obsessed with proving their superiority they too would be pulling as many “interesting” metallurgical concepts from their colon, but so far they seem to be happy just to make nice knives and let the product speak for itself. One has to respect that.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

...Kevin, I'm lost. Why are my chances much greater with getting a better blade at any show if it is a stock removal blade?

Every time you heat steel numerous bad things can happen and only a few good things can be done, sheer odds alone are against the forged blade even if the smith knows what he is doing and has managed to ignore what many other smiths have told him. As mentioned in my previous post stock removers don’t have a “movement” or an agenda, other than making knives. They don’t seem to have a fear or hatred of science and all that thar fancy technology. If all they have is a torch and a bucket of used motor oil, their pride (or their peers) will not stop them from concluding that a place with specialized heat treating equipment and years of experience and knowledge just in that field may be able to do it better. The bladesmith is part of a brotherhood that would never let a smith forget it if he farmed out the heat treat, and very few commercial heat treaters would entertain the thought of producing a blade that would do things bladesmiths seem to hold dear. So the bladesmith will go way out there with all kinds of “creative” mental achrobatics and techniques in order to make the tools they have, seem to work better.

In order to stay ahead of the grinders in marketing hype (why, I don’t know) bladesmiths seem to need bizarre and eclectic techniques and magic potions. Simply following the suggestions of the people who developed and made the steel could detract from their image of artist or stewards of ancient arcane secrets. What they are missing out on by not looking into the actual metallurgical principals going on in steel is worth much more endless fascination and can best be summed up by Sir Arthur Eddington when he said- “Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.”

 

[Allan Molstad]

I'm no expert but I have done both methods. Both can be frustrating and enjoyable.

Both systems face the same challenge of the quench tank.
No matter how I get a blade ready to be heated and quenched, it is under the water or oil where the magic, or pain happens.

Last year, I made 12 attempts to Heat-treat a katana.
9 times I heard a 'ping', felt my heart sag.
The anger I felt was real. Im not sure who or what I was angry at, but I know I hated something.

However I ended up with one real nice katana to hang in it's sword stand and show to my friends.
It is nice to show them what a real hamon looks like as they all own swords with them fake grinded/etched hamons.

We all can tell our own story of moments of real enjoyment, and real frustration.
Moments where we are 100% sure that making a hand-made knife is just not worth it.

And other moments where we say, "Oh it was nothing.' when we talk about our newest blade with a friend.

 

[T Blade]

I love the fire, of the forge. I love hammering the steel, while it's on my anvil trying to form the type of blade that I'm looking to create. I love trying to make damascus with as few inclusions as I can manage. When all is said and done using my forge, hammer and anvil or press for making billets to be forged to shape, I think, damn, now I've got to grind it.

I just love the fire , as stated previously, it all ends up being a good knife, if the steel wasn't ruined during forging, and the heat treat is done correctly.

 

[Allan Molstad]

We are getting ready for Sunday dinner here.
And as I listen to my mom and wife being busy in the kitchen, I had one more thought before I go.

If I were to dream...
One day I hope to be able to learn to make my own steel.
I want to start with iron sand or raw iron ore and smelt it into steel, and then turn this steel into the finest blade ever made by the hand of man.

And on that day I will look at that sword, knowing that I could never do better with my forge and hammer.
I will look at it and then it will dawn on me, "The handle, I think next time I will do the handle a bit different"

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Kevin,

Personally, I am only interested in fact, not fairy tale, when it comes to what I accomplish at the forge.
Do people do a disservice when they pass along all the miss information?
Sure they do.
Is there to much ego involved here? yes!
Speaking for myself, I am not much of a follower. I believe I am a critical thinker. A skeptic!
I do not believe what you say, just because you say it. It is my duty to be a skeptic, a critical thinker. Other wise I might be the one to pass along some bogus information.
Learning any skill requires us to ferret out the truth and ignore the other.
There just seems to be a greater abundance when it comes to forging.

Thanks for your feedback, Fred

I will continue to read your articles. They contain much truth.
That is, of course with a skeptic's eye.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

That's good stuff, Kevin. Thanks.
Somewhere, recently, I saw a quote that I can only paraphrase that 'fiction needs to be more believable than truth'.
Bladesmiths (and I AM one!) can come up with the most bizarre, outlandish recitations on forging and heat treating methods to relay to their customer and other smiths, that for some reason, seem to be necessary, to make their efforts credible!
Why can't we just say, "I got it hot and then quenched it!"?
That's just too easy.
I concur completely that there really are only a few methods that we bladesmiths can use that create a knife that will perform well as a KNIFE, but there are innumerable ways we can screw one up!

 

[fitzo]

Forging is the moving of metal from one shape into another.
Heat treating is the thermal manipulation of metals to maximize desired properties.
The two are being treated here synonymously all too often, and that is incorrect. They are separate skills.
It is poor logic to assume that a "bladesmith" will necessarily have or employ greater heat treating knowledge and techniques than a "stock removal" knifemaker. Some do, many don't.

The bottom line is it is fun banging metal and romantic appeal is the only justification necessary. Let's not suggest, however, that the province of great home heat treating lies altogether in the hands of those who have banged the metal first.

 

[Shing]

In the old days, the only way to make steel good enough for a knife was to forge it from a piece of raw high carbon steel. Old high carbon steel was either shear steel or the newer cast steel. Both had inclusions, numerous impurities, inconsistencies, slag, small holes and faults as a result of how it was made. The bladesmith when he got the raw steel from the steel maker had to forge it to get rid of all these things in order to get sound steel much as a modern Japanese swordsmith has to when he recieves tamahagane from a smelter.

But steel from a modern mill will not have any of these problems. It has been hot rolled or forged from a large ingot weighting many tons. The steel will have to meet specification before it can leave the mill and has none of the faults, inconsistencies and impurities found in old steel making methods. Thus the modern smith in his forgings is a solution to a none existant problem.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

... Speaking for myself, I am not much of a follower. I believe I am a critical thinker. A skeptic! ...

Fred this will serve you very well in any walk of life these days. My disillusionment grows greater every day with any information that we encounter. We are not in the "information age" we are in the "infomercial age". Just listen to the so called "experts" on any channel on t.v. and then double check their facts and you will quickly find they are either promoting an agenda or just making wild guesses. Almost all information needs to be verified before it can be trusted. Science too often gets a bad rapp because people confuse the scientific method with the scientists. The scientific method is one of the few reliable ways to produce cold hard facts. Scientists are people with bias and agendas. Somewhere along the line it became acceptable to establish a theory or belief and then set out to prove it correct while skewing or disregarding any data that doesn't support that stance. Mix a little politics with that formula and you get the masses of junk science that mete is so fond of pointing out . From your evening news to the Sunday paper (which I just threw away in disgust), there is no reliable information but only people trying to sell you a line of something.

And don't even get me started about what they are trying to teach my kids at school these days