toothy edges work great...

diff_lock2 said:
I was just going to say... I came here to read about edges, but instead read some hilarious text.

I am going to have to agree with whatever UNIT has to say because he has conducted tests and has documented it well enough, numbers don't lie.

Also, paper wheel or any powered buffing/stropping is going to create a VERY polished cutting edge.
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That's what I don't understand. When you use a low grit belt, then finish with a slotted wheel with compound (polishing compound) it CEASES to be a "toothy low grit edge".

I don't see why it's such a big deal anyway. I get absolutely stupid sharp edges with my edge pro, and I run my edges up to 6000 grit. I haven't run across anything my polished edges won't cut.
 
Not only does the slotted wheel make it not a "toothy" edge, but a worn 400 grit belt first makes it far from a "toothy" edge.
 
In my experience, the paper wheel with compound seemed to leave a polish comparable to a 1200-1500 grit sandpaper, but kicks out dust everywhere. It was a nice fast strop alternative I have to say, but I learned real quick this is not a system for in apartment living.
 
230grains said:
Not only does the slotted wheel make it not a "toothy" edge, but a worn 400 grit belt first makes it far from a "toothy" edge.
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Don't see how you can make a blanket statement like that w/out seeing the equipment and results firsthand. Paper wheels can be dressed with a wide range of abrasive grit. Assuming that most larger manufacturers use them, I've seen quite a variety of edge finishes out of the box, from a smoothed-over fairly refined edge right up to a coarse edge that's just barely had the burr removed and still shows clear grind pattern right to the cutting edge.

Will agree that while 400 on a belt is not my idea of a truly coarse edge, 2000 grit is not some people's idea of a fine edge. Safe to say it still has plenty of tooth, probably in the range of a fine DMT.
HH
 
I've seen richard Js work on a Busse FFBM I bought, it was not a "toothy" edge, although not quite mirror polished. The compound that he recommends is what comes with the wheels, although not .5 micron, is hardly a rough compound.
 
What kind of edge did you ask for? I believe Richard has described using everything from 80 to 120 to 320 to 400 for his initial grind. You're making generalizations.

As a side note I'm looking at my brandy spankin' new Becker BK11 (just got delivered). Looks like the initial grind is somewhere in the 120-200 range and the finishing pass left plenty of grind to the edge (though more on one side of the bevel than the other).
HH
 
EarlFH said:
boki_zca,
I new as soon as I read your post, that you were going to be getting a ton of s**t over it, but you are right! Just because it is real impressive to be able to shave hair from your arm, doesn't mean it's a good hard use edge. How many shaves do you get from a razor, before you have to change the blade? That's because a razor sharp edge is so thin, that it doesn't last.
Let the folks that get off on constantly sharpening their knives to keep them 'shaving sharp' do their thing, and you keep your blades sharpened as you suggested, and not have to sharpen them on a daily basis. Let the indignant remarks roll off. Arguing about it will just cause hard feelings.:D

EarlFH
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Yes, I agree and have stated the same and got slammed here . There are many like that here. While I'm not saying the coarse edge cuts better thats subjective . I am saying it cuts longer, has better utility and easier to maintain requiring less time to get there. I have done extensive testing on cutting meat, rope, ect. written in a easy to understand format. Not trying to bend the data toward my preference. The real deal will surface. But enjoy what ever edge you want to put on your knife. DM
 
230grains said:
I've seen richard Js work on a Busse FFBM I bought, it was not a "toothy" edge, although not quite mirror polished. The compound that he recommends is what comes with the wheels, although not .5 micron, is hardly a rough compound.
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White compound included with the slotted wheel is 2 microns.
 
Thanks for the clarification, a power stropping with a 2 micron compound is hardly "toothy".
 
230grains said:
Thanks for the clarification, a power stropping with a 2 micron compound is hardly "toothy".
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And I've used .5 micron CrO on a cork belt to finish off/remove the burr from edges ground w/ 80 and 120grit belts. Believe me these edges still have plenty of tooth even if they do sport a nice shine on the high spots and no trace of a burr.

If you have a personal issue with the man I'd say this forum isn't the place to keep it running.

HH
 
heavyhanded, what i thought was a 400 grit belt is actually a 320 grit belt. i had 2 belts the same color and i thought both were 400 grit. i broke one a long time ago and the one i have been using is a 320.
 
I've noticed about a 200g difference in scratch pattern given off from a slow running belt. ie. a 120g belt will give the look of a 325g stone. Then power stropping will make the edge look much finer. DM
 
richard j said:
heavyhanded, what i thought was a 400 grit belt is actually a 320 grit belt. i had 2 belts the same color and i thought both were 400 grit. i broke one a long time ago and the one i have been using is a 320.
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This is NOT trolling NOR attacking you, but if you've been using a 320 grit belt for a long time, it ceases to be a 320 grit belt. That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not saying you're a bad sharpener, or anything of the sort. I'm saying a worn down 320 grit belt, no longer cuts the same as a sharp/fresh 320 grit belt. So when the back of the belt says "320 grit" and you've been using it since "you broke the other one a long time ago", chances are, with use, it's no longer giving you a 320 grit finish. Further refining the edge is the 2 micron compound on the wheels. After the worn belt and the paper wheels, the edge ceases to be in the realm of a 320 grit edge. I have 80 grit AO belts that now cut like 400 grit belts. That's the only point I'm trying to get across here. I have some worn belts from blade refinishing, if I take one of my old 320 grits and finish up an edge on it and then let it go a couple passes on my slotted wheel, it's not going to be anywhere near what I'm going to get if I sharpen up on stones to a "toothy" edge and take my time to remove the burr.


HH - Using an 80 grit belt followed by a loaded cork belt is going to give you a toothy edge, using worn medium grit belts followed by a power stropping is going to differ in terms of it being "toothy" instead of "polished". It's not going to give you the same finish as going up gradually through the progression of belts, finishing with a loaded leather belt or wheel, but it's still not the same as using a sharp coarse belt and knocking the burr off.

Also, this is not personal issues with Richard. I like Richard personally. I've come here to discuss things, not have people get all offended because someone disagrees with them. I have no issues with Richard personally whatsoever, I'm just sick of people getting called trolls when anyone disagrees with what certain people believe. If no one disagreed or discussed anything this forum sure would be boring. I hope to further this discussion and leave all personal matters out of it. I may use one of my worn belts tomorrow and sharpen up a knife then break out the paper wheels and see what I can do to finish it.
 
Has anyone tried using a polishing wheel (stacked cloth wheel) to deburr/polish an edge? Cork sounds like a great medium to "finish" a coarse edge but I don't have a belt sander. I'm not sure how effective they would be on blade steels.
 
D2 and S30V and VG-10 seem to cut better when sharpened on a red (medium) DMT hone, IMHO. The ultra-fine (green) DMT will deliver a polished edge, but cutting performance is no better and maybe worse, at least on soft/fibrous materials. My high carbon steel blades take the best edge when finished on an ancient Black Arkansas bench stone.
 
230grains said:
HH ....Also, this is not personal issues with Richard. I like Richard personally. I've come here to discuss things, not have people get all offended because someone disagrees with them. I have no issues with Richard personally whatsoever, I'm just sick of people getting called trolls when anyone disagrees with what certain people believe. If no one disagreed or discussed anything this forum sure would be boring. I hope to further this discussion and leave all personal matters out of it. I may use one of my worn belts tomorrow and sharpen up a knife then break out the paper wheels and see what I can do to finish it.
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My apologies if I'm misreading things. Like you I don't appreciate the "Troll" label being thrown around, but there's no denying there are some egos around here (myself included), and threads all too frequently degenerate into something that benefits nobody and can adversely flavor the sub-forum.

That said, I don't find it difficult to believe that someone cannot maintain a grind pattern with any form of power strop including a paper wheel, being that they are heavily influenced by pressure, dwell time, and amount of compound applied. Even at a conversion of 2x (IMO a powered belt functions at approx 2 times the rated grit compared to sharpening by hand- 320 grit = 640) you're going to have a fair amount of tooth. If the operator just kisses the apex enough to remove the burr you'll easily see the grind pattern extend all the way to the cutting edge. Not exactly "coarse", but certainly not in the pre-polished range of 1500 and higher (CAMI). The again, Richard doesn't usually describe his edges as coarse, but rather "toothy". I see your point about belts wearing down and changing character, but don't see why the edges produced would no longer have tooth. It seems the threads discussing different edge preparations need to be narrowly defined or it degenerates into strongly-held opinions being defended instead of ideas being exchanged.

No ill will
HH
 
HeavyHanded said:
........... threads all too frequently degenerate into something that benefits nobody and can adversely flavor the sub-forum.
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ehhh? Sometimes it is entertaining.

You gotta admit, if you step back and think about it, it is pretty funny to watch guys LITERALLY argue about splitting hairs!

The knife is one of the simplest tools (next to the hammer), yet we discuss things like this to the nth degree. It only follows that we become passionate at times.

Your sentiment is spot on though...we need to keep it civil and understand the limits of passion, and make efforts not to cross into obsession/extremism/personal attacks.

What a funny (but true) concept.

Have a great day guys!
 
Glad to see some of the B.S. being fleshed out, hopefully thrown out.
Personally, I find it distracting. There are good folks that post here that have good information to offer up.
If we snipe at each other - everybody loses.
Opinions will differ, information may vary. BUT, if we ALL keep it topic driven "Discussion" everybody gets something out of it.:thumbup:
Now, Girlfriends? Toothy or Polished sharp?? I prefer - False;)
 
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