TOPS Knives

[Xaero]

My thoughts about TOPS: hella lot of designs to choose; most of them use OK(cheap) steel; overpriced.

 

[Spears]

Well in this case it's not a coating but a bas-relief.

Hehe... Nice way to put it.

 

[Flashpoint]

All this Tops talk inspired me to go out in the shop and see what kinds of damage I could do to a 2x4 with my "Tops" knife.

My "Tops" knife is actually a Tops masquerading as a Browning. I picked the Browning up about 3 weeks ago when CDNN had them on sell for $69. I hadn't had a chance to give it a good workout, but what little I've done with it has proved satisfying. After doing some research on here and other places on the web about the 1095 steel, I was convinced that though it's an inexpensive steel, it's perfectly suited for the kind of work this knife was made for.

Even though it's not a really large knife it did ok at chopping for it's size. It's a heavy knife so I think that factor help quit a bit. It bored a hole into the wood easily enough without showing any wear. Even after all the hacking, cutting, and drilling it still held enough edge to easily cut through some B flute cardboard.

One thing that impressed me was after about the third hard stab into the wood I missed and hit the vise , but the tip didn't bend like I thought it would. It actually left a small hole in the vise. Not that I would make stabbing steel a habit, but I was glad to see that this knife could hold up to it.

Here's a pic. I drew an arrow to the hole that the knife made and added an inset with a closeup of the tip.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

1. I love TOPS knives, and Mike Fuller is a friend.

2. Why is it that the newbs always announce their presence by bringing dead threads to the top?

3. JimSlade, the blades are left rough so the coating will stick better. It is not rocket science. EVERY item that I have ever seen that gets powdercoated was beadblasted first, but you might know something that I don't.

STeven Garsson

Powder coating needs no texture to adhere. Tops are not ground smooth as is proper technique for bead or sandblasting. They should be to texture, not hide an unfinished blade. Second they still suck for a tactical knife made of carbon steel imo (the texture, not tops or carbon steel). R.J. Martin makes beutifull knives that make use of powder coating applied to a finished smooth surface. Also if you want a texture it can be applied directly to the powder coating as Mr. Martin does giving even more reason to sand the blade to a smooth finish. All you have to do is remove the powder coat and start to sand or reprofile and you will see what I mean. As I have said before, I think the blades are rough because it reduces costs. Im all for that when it gets passed dwon line to the customer.

 

[bladeprince]

I have 2 Tops knives. A Coyote Blue and a Blue Otter. I like small fixed blades I can ECD.

I also have several Dozier's that to me are "knives with a purpose". Bob puts a lot of thought into the design of his knives. His general philosophy is that knives are made to cut, not to pry (even Bob knows there are exceptions, of course). His hunting line, expecially, are fine cutting tools. They are hollow ground and can get razor sharp. In contrast, it seems that Tops has the opposite philosophy. They seem to think knives (this is a general statement because I've only handled a few Tops designs) should be able to be pry bars first and that cutting is secondary.

My Otter is only 7" long but the steel is 3/16" thick. Much thicker than needed of a knife of this size. It's then saber ground and coated with a rough coating. Because of its thickness (especially since I reprofiled it), the bevel is very wide and is impossible to sharpen on a Sharpmaker. Just too much material needs to be removed. Also, the "crinkle coating" creats a lot of unwanted friction when cuting carboard or anything harder than food. This knive is more like a wedge than a knife. It almost splits instead of cuts. Carrot pieces usually just "pop" off instead of being sliced off.

To help with this problem, I sanded the lower portion of the blade until smooth. I then reprofile to 30 degrees by clipping on some 220 grit wet/dry sand paper to my Sharpmaker rods. I then finished the sharpening the way I sharpen my Bark Rivers. This was to create a convex edge. I use split hide tacked to a 2x4 and various grits (400 & 800) to finish the edge. Not too much 800. I leave the edge a little rough.

While if will never cut like my Dozier's, it's much better than what I started with. If the steel was thinner, given a hollow grind, and powder coated instead of the rough coating they use now, this little Coyote would be a fine knife (has a great cross-draw Kydex sheath, by the way), even if it is only 1095. I think that Tops needs to put more thought into making several of their knives more into "cutters" and less into "choppers".

Two of the pic show how I sanded the blade smooth to cut down on the friction and in the close-up you can see how wide the bevel is after reprofiling and why I decided to convert it to a convex edge for easier, faster sharpening. Maybe some can use my "trial and error experience" with the little Coyote, if they want their Tops to be better cutters. It helped mine.

Click on image to enlarge.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Powder coating needs no texture to adhere.

I have always read the opposite which is why people argued they never did any finishing. Have you compared smooth surface bonds like R.J.'s to the typical rough surface bonds or know of any such comparisons? Typically even the best bonds I have seen come off immediately anyway in woods which is why I consider them useless cosmetic finishes anyway.

-Cliff

 

[Whoever Wherever]

Cliff I have not tried to rough up an R.J. Martin but havent seen his coatings come off quick or easy. The tops ones I know will remove rather easily. This to me kind of shoots down the claim that the texture is helping the coating. I wouls agree that the coatings dont last under heavy use. I know R.J. coats his blades in some cases but I am more familliar with the coating on the handles myself as far as his knives go. Maybe someone who has a black blade Martin folder can comment on how well it has stayed on the blade itself. I know it stays on the handles that are smooth to start and I have seen plenty of coated blades without texturing on them. In the motercycle and car world they powder coat everything from parts to rims that are all smooth metal and they pay top dollar. I have never hard of the powder coat rubbing off easily. If I was to powder coat any parts I think I would do it for looks on handle scales and they would be smooth when I started.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The tops ones I know will remove rather easily.

Yeah, I have seen that. Thanks for the info, I'll drop R.J. an email and see if I can't get some more FACTS and less propoganda.

-Cliff

 

[Whoever Wherever]

Yeah Cliff, R.J. would be the man to ask. IMO he is making the highest quality knives I know of with a powder coat. Also he is a scientific kind of fellow such as yourself. With no desire to use a powder coat my research is limited. I just know that if you go to a powder coating place they will tell you smooth is not a problem. The wear a blade takes may make it impractical to use but I doubt R.J. would use it if that was the case. Still, my own experience with tops is that the coating is not hard to remove. So if the texture helps I believe it is in a minimal capacity. Like I said, for myself I think coating other than a DLC like one will stay on handle scales.

 

[Flashpoint]

This knive is more like a wedge than a knife. It almost splits instead of cuts. Carrot pieces usually just "pop" off instead of being sliced off.

I noticed that when battening my knife through the 2x4. It seemed like once about 1/2" of the blade was in the wood the whole board would just pop apart. Which isn't a bad thing, but it is more of what you would expect from driving a wedge through a log with a sledge hammer. I didn't have really any trouble cutting the cardboard and whittling one the 2x4 pieces even after quite a bit of chopping. On the other hand I could see how reprofiling would benefit the blade's cutting ability.

BigJimSlade and Cliff Stamp

What you guys are discussing further answers the question I posted a couple of weeks ago about the coating of the Tops knives. I'm interested the results you find. Personally I was never attracted to coated blades until I saw the Ka-Bar Dozier Black Thorn, which has a smooth blade, and has not shown any wear on the finish.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So if the texture helps I believe it is in a minimal capacity.

As a secondary issue, it comes off anyway. Anyone who argues powder coating is anything other than cosmetic on a using knife is living in fantasy land. I have never seen one which would even stand up to a day of just light wood cutting, let alone anything abrasive like digging, cutting sod, opening sandbags, etc. . So basically you end up comparing the corrosion resistance of a rough TOP's finish to a smooth R.J. finish. Which one of them is easier to maintain.

I noticed that when battening my knife through the 2x4. It seemed like once about 1/2" of the blade was in the wood the whole board would just pop apart. Which isn't a bad thing, but it is more of what you would expect from driving a wedge through a log with a sledge hammer.

The knives are wedge shaped, generally that isn't a good idea, even for splitters. The best splitters will be curved. Only the massive ones are triangular, monster mauls and such, ~20 lbs heads. Cutting is of course relative, compare the performance of the TOP's to something like Kirk. I can guarantee that you can easily double the performance and depending on the exact grind, possibly go up to 5x as high.


-Cliff

 

[bladeprince]

The knives are wedge shaped, generally that isn't a good idea, even for splitters. The best splitters will be curved. Only the massive ones are triangular, monster mauls and such, ~20 lbs heads. Cutting is of course relative, compare the performance of the TOP's to something like Kirk. I can guarantee that you can easily double the performance and depending on the exact grind, possibly go up to 5x as high.
-Cliff

My post was long so maybe this topic got lost in it but this was the main point of the entire post. I've done everything I can think of to get one of my Tops knives to cut better and I have succeeded somewhat but it's been a pain and it still isn't very good. If interested, read my post (#65) and see if you agree. Any comments also appreciated.

Regards,
Gary

 

[Whoever Wherever]

"Blade coatings provide some nice options in a tactical knife. I offer Black Epoxy Powder coating applied electrostatically and then baked to a durable finish.
This coating offer some TACTICAL advantages:
It eliminates reflection, and colors a blade black.
It greatly increases corrosion resistance of tool steels.
Where possible, you will find screw on handles on my fixed blade knives with coated blades. This way, if you damage the coating during extreme use, you can simply unscrew the handle scales, and have the blade re-coated.
Coated blades can, and will, scratch with hard use. Even so, they are of great benefit.
I do not offer coated blades on Japanese style knives."

This is off R.J. Martins website. I hope he doesnt mind, but it seems hes been asked this so much he put it in a fequently asked questions section. As always he is stright forward. He admits that it will scratch and even designs around the need to recoat them. He also offers everything but the HAVOC uncoated. I think the coating on the handles stays on well because it is simply subject to less abuse. He only lists two advantages wich I also like, no reason to blow it out of proportion.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I've done everything I can think of to get one of my Tops knives to cut better and I have succeeded somewhat but it's been a pain and it still isn't very good.

There are three major problems with the grinds :

1) low sabre
2) thick edges
3) obtuse edges

You can't really do anything about the first one unless you have power equipment or have an insane level of patience as you are looking at hours+ of hand grinding. However you can address the last two with a relief grind and an appropiate microbevel.

Cut the edge back to something sensible like 10 degrees. Use a very coarse stone. Grind for about 5-10 minutes depending on the knife, 1095 grinds dead easy at that hardness. If it is a cutting tool then go right to the edge itself, for a heavier chopper then leave about 0.015" or so at the stock thickness.

Now apply a secondary bevel at 15 degrees, maybe as high as 20 if you are cutting metals and heavy bone a lot.

This however makes ease of sharpening take a dive because you now have a hugely wide edge bevel, the ideal solution is to just get a maker to regrind the primary, but a more sensible solution is to buy a better knife in the first place.

This coating offer some TACTICAL advantages:
It eliminates reflection, and colors a blade black.
It greatly increases corrosion resistance of tool steels.

I should clearify my above post when I noted it was cosmetic. If you are actually using the knife for killing other people or something so equally of low frequency then the coating can be of value as Martin describes. However if you are actually using it significantly then the coating will abrade off fairly quickly, all that I have seen personally and as well heard from others is that way anyway. No experience with Martin however.

-Cliff

 

[Horn Dog]

My God. I actually must agree with Cliff Stamp on the TOPS knives. I have always thought he was a bit excessive in his criticisms of some knives I use and like. My first and last TOPS is the Tom Brown Tracker. For $200, expect a little more attention paid to the primary grind. The Tracker is just a nice club or anchor. Its not a knife or axe. Won't cut. Stay away from TOPS. IMO they are overpriced and overrated. Get an Ontario (Stamp hates those) or a Becker or even one of those $500+ wonder knives from Busse (if you can find one). I'd rather have a cheap Pakistani Kukri than another TOPS.

 

[seal6]

quick post. personally not a fan of their steel. used one for light woodchopping in the forrest, slight drizzle outside, had bad surface rust thereafter.

 

[seal6]

Also, noone should ever buy the tracker. It's not even anything like the Tool Tom Brown designed. It's twice the weight and twice less a product. However if you can find one of the origin al custom one's he endorsed (forget who made them) that is worth a buy, if you're in to that type of knife. Personally I handled it and was not impressed by any of it's capabilities, drill, fillert, chop, slash, cut, saw, etc. Overpriced crap designed to grab overzealous movie fans.

 

[bladeprince]

My God. I actually must agree with Cliff Stamp on the TOPS knives. I have always thought he was a bit excessive in his criticisms of some knives I use and like. My first and last TOPS is the Tom Brown Tracker. For $200, expect a little more attention paid to the primary grind. The Tracker is just a nice club or anchor. Its not a knife or axe. Won't cut. Stay away from TOPS. IMO they are overpriced and overrated. Get an Ontario (Stamp hates those) or a Becker or even one of those $500+ wonder knives from Busse (if you can find one). I'd rather have a cheap Pakistani Kukri than another TOPS.

As you can tell from my posts, I also agree. I spent hours (story in my posts) trying to get my beautiful little Coyote to be a cutter but alas, everything I tried would not change the 2 main problems: 1) blade stock too thick for such a small knife, 2) needed a flat or hollow primary grind instead of the wide angle saber grind.

Except for the wasted money, I really don't care. I'll just go back to my Doziers and Busse Warden for small FB's and Ontario and Camillus CQB for a larger ones. I like them more anyway.

Regards

Regards

 

[Waldganger]

Does anyone have the CQT 304?
I'm really thinking of purchasing this knife.
It'll only cost me $150AUD, which is $20 less than my CRKT M16-13LE that I'm very fond of, plus the handle and blade appear more functional (can't say about the blade thickness though)

 

[Tballetta]

I own 5 TOPS blades. I bought them because I love the design. Some of the most innovative in the industry. That being said, I never use them. The blade geometry sucks as cutters go. You would think, as good blade makers TOPS would have given this some thought. They must know that their blade geometry could be better. I would love to see them produce some better cutting grinds.