Trespassing

Joined
Jul 31, 2002
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I just typed the above word into the search function, and found only 4 threads in as many years that contained it. Perhaps it's time we had a discussion on it. I'm not entirely sure where I draw the line with my own feelings on this subject, so maybe I can gain from the exchange as well.

I got to thinking about this because I have seen numerous threads here about folks going into other people's woods, or across their land. I'm not trying to point fingers here, so I'm not linking the threads, but I'm certain I can find plenty of them.

What the hell gives you the right to be on someone else's property without permission?

There. I've said it. I will not claim to be a saint in this regard myself, but my viewpoint is becoming more narrow of late. If you are lucky enough to live in an area where the land does not cost five times what it's actually worth, then buy some of it yourself. "But I can't afford it," you might say. Oh! Well I guess that makes everything alright then, eh?
If you live in an area where land is exhorbitant, then this makes things all the worse. It does not give you an excuse to use such land, and get the joy and benefits of it, without having to pay for it. No, it is only a bigger crime against the honest man who is paying his hard earned money for it.

I see this illustrated now that my father is struggling to keep the family farm together after my grandparents' passing. He can't afford it all, and is being forced to let go some of his favorite hunting grounds so that he can keep the fields that provide his income. I can't express the mental anguish I see him going through. Once forced to realize just how dear the cost is, he is naturally becoming more protective of it. Perhaps like my great grandfather, who kept a notepad in the pocket of his hunting coat to write down the names and date of any trespassers he caught.

If you want to venture into the woods, take the time to ask the landowner first. If he says no, respect his choice and find somewhere else. He may not want to be liable if you get hurt on his property. Take a look through a plat map. I can name several tracts in my county that were willed to the state for conservation purposes that almost no one knows about, and can be used freely. For those of you who do get permission from landowners when venturing on private ground, I applaud and thank you.
 
Where I hunt here in Northern Ont ( manitoulin island )most of the island 75%
is privately owned if you are caught without landowners permission slip
you can be charged 500.00 for trespassing by lands and forest officers...
and yes everyone should respect these postings.. private is private !
 
About the only thing I hunt anymore is arrowheads, but I always go by the motto "signs are for people, fences are for cows". Of course, we've got a lot of BLM and Forest Service land out west, so there's lots of public stuff that's leased out to ranchers and ok to be on.

Gordon
 
Possum I respect what you are saying . Its tough to hunt down my way as there is no public land close to me . I,m not rich and am trying to find land that wouldn,t be good for anything but hunting to keep the cost down .

As far as people being on my land ? It would depend what they were doing there . Hunting ? you better ask . A cool walk in the woods ? As long as they are quiet about it I wouldn,t care . Man I can,t see owning that . To me you don,t buy the land you buy the right to take care of it . Sorry if its a little sloppy sentimental .
 
I can't recall a time I've ever tresspassed on anyone's land without permission. All my outdoor activities are centered around county, state or federal land so it isn't a big deal to avoid tresspassing.

That said, if I was in some kind of a pickle, lost and struggling and trying to get to a highway or someplace like that so I could get found, a No Tresspassing sign wouldn't stop me, not even for a microsecond.

BTW, out of curiousity, can anyone here explain how property rights work in England? My understanding is that if you own wilderness land, then you have no right to prevent people from crossing it. Is that correct? If so, then where is a land owner in England allowed to draw the line in terms of the usage a non-owner can make of the land?

I imagine, for example, that if you're a farmer, then a hiker isn't allowed to just come stomping through your fields, crushing all your vegetables. But what about hunting and fishing? If you own acerage with waterfront and I want to go fishing on it, can you stop me?

I just think it's interesting how property rights are viewed differently in England than they are here. In some ways it would be nicer because I could go hiking where ever I want to. On the other hand, as a land owner I'm not sure I would want the usual run of drunken jackasses partying on my land and messing the place up.
 
I don't really believe in the concept of owning land. I think it's pretty ridiculous as a whole, though it does serve a multitude of practical purposes in modern society.

If I'm in some random patch of woods and I see a no tresspassing sign, generally if I can go around that area or explore somewhere else, I will. I'm not out to cause trouble, or even worse, get shot at.

However if I know there's an area not being taken care of at all, not being used at all etc and it would make a nice little camp ground for myself, I have no problems going there and enjoying a few stays. Some of my most frequently visited areas fall under this category. I don't give a damn if you have a title or a deed to a patch of woods if it's in sorry shape, your home or business is not on it, it's not being used by you and it's probably going to get torn down and developed soon. That's how most patches of woods around here are. Not public, but not being used for anything either. If I were in some woods and came across someone's cabin and farm they were occupying, or saw that it was still in use, I'd quietly leave. I'm not trying to intrude, but some of the technicalities that try and dictate what we can and cannot do with land is just silly to me.
 
I`m glad to be living in a country were we have an old law "allemannsretten" that enables us to be out in the woods without being shot by a angry landlord.
We can pick berries, mushrooms and camp almost where we like.
Hunting , fishing and use of the natural resources are the land owner right though. But we also have plenty of state owned land to do this.

Tor
 
Possum there may be a little thing that I have seen in some city dwellers . It is not that they are disrespectful of property rights . Some must be taught something they have no experience with . Most of the open land they are used to is public parks open to everyone . Of course there are jerks anywhere .
 
I see this illustrated now that my father is struggling to keep the family farm together after my grandparents' passing. He can't afford it all, and is being forced to let go some of his favorite hunting grounds so that he can keep the fields that provide his income. I can't express the mental anguish I see him going through. Once forced to realize just how dear the cost is, he is naturally becoming more protective of it. Perhaps like my great grandfather, who kept a notepad in the pocket of his hunting coat to write down the names and date of any trespassers he caught.

You and your father may want to look into land trusts to still retain private control over the land while relieving yourselves of the tax burden.

I of course don't know why your father finds affording the land difficult - I'm assuming its because of higher taxes due to higher assessments of the land's value. We often think of taxes as simply a fee the government charges in order to pay for all the services and infrastructure it offers. But taxes are also a method of "gentrification". I see it happen in the cities and it happens in the countryside as well. Wealthier people find a particular neighborhood or rural area valuable and begin buying into it - as their bids drive prices up, the tax assessor follows with higher assessments, and the government follows with higher taxes. Pretty soon, poor folk can't afford their own homes and are forced to sell. Supposedly they're compensated by the higher price their home sells for - but they still lost their home, and in the real world one's home and land is simply priceless.

Land trusts offer a way out of this bind - you father can even pass the land on to you after putting the land into a conservation trust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_trust

I hate to see people parceling up their land and selling it - it usually eventually winds up in the hands of developers and pretty soon the open spaces are cut up into tiny fragmented pieces.
 
I don't really believe in the concept of owning land. I think it's pretty ridiculous as a whole, though it does serve a multitude of practical purposes in modern society.

If I'm in some random patch of woods and I see a no tresspassing sign, generally if I can go around that area or explore somewhere else, I will. I'm not out to cause trouble, or even worse, get shot at.

However if I know there's an area not being taken care of at all, not being used at all etc and it would make a nice little camp ground for myself, I have no problems going there and enjoying a few stays. Some of my most frequently visited areas fall under this category. I don't give a damn if you have a title or a deed to a patch of woods if it's in sorry shape, your home or business is not on it, it's not being used by you and it's probably going to get torn down and developed soon. That's how most patches of woods around here are. Not public, but not being used for anything either. If I were in some woods and came across someone's cabin and farm they were occupying, or saw that it was still in use, I'd quietly leave. I'm not trying to intrude, but some of the technicalities that try and dictate what we can and cannot do with land is just silly to me.

I heartily disagree word for word, whether or not I develop my land I own it and have the right to do with it as I wish. I like pristine unused land and if I own it, it will be posted. I don't want to go to MY land and see trash and atv trails. I also enjoy hunting and don't want poachers and pot growers on my land.

Vivi,
If you take the time to find out who owns the land, came to my house, told me what you wanted to do on my land, and asked for permision, I would more than likely let you use it, if you didn't, and I caught you on my legally posted land, I will call the Sheriff.
 
Trespassing sucks, period. That's why there is a legal term for it :) I can see it being done without permission in the case of emergency but that's the exception. My dad's property has a 4 acre pond that borders railroad and his concern was that some trespasser would fall in and drown and the idiots family would file a lawsuit. That's what the signs are for because they don't really keep a**holes off your property.

And another thing...is it really your property if, even when there is no lien and you fail to pay the taxes, it can be taken for a sheriff's sale? We are lead to believe we own it but we really don't. We are just paying the state to take care of it.

And about the UK trespassing deal....you can walk thru anothers personal property in the UK and it is not considered trespassing.
 
Trespassing is wrong...but the time a fellow who I just happened to know, broke into my Aunt and Uncle's lakefront home after having an accident while hunting from a boat/blind on the lake. Had he not broken in and warmed up, it well could have cost him his life to hypothermia.
HE left a note and said he'd pay for the window he broke to gain entry....No Problems from anyone's point of view.

Another time, a friend, who happens to be an attorney,was wading and fishing a stream that was considered navigable, and in Indiana, you have a legal right to wade and use a stream that is legally considered navigable....just cannot get out on the banks as that would be trespassing.....as I understand it.
However, the farmer who owned the land through which the stream flowed met him with a shotgun and asked him to leave.
My friend felt that it was not the time to point out Riparian Rights Law, even though he was within his legal rights.
 
We can pick berries, mushrooms and camp almost where we like.
Hunting , fishing and use of the natural resources are the land owner right though.
Tor
The berries, mushrooms, and camping space is also "natural resources" IMO. Not trying to argue with legislation though.

HE left a note and said he'd pay for the window he broke to gain entry....No Problems from anyone's point of view.

My friend felt that it was not the time to point out Riparian Rights Law, even though he was within his legal rights.
Perfectly correct on both counts. I am generally against landowners (including myself) posting their undeveloped land. However, most of us do it solely for liability reasons. Any "reasonable use" won't bother most people. Some examples of Reasonable: No Trace camping, hiking, fishing, hunting (with permission. Safety issue), bird watching, etc. No or low impact. If you are going to start digging, building, cultivating, leave trash, etc. then that is completely different.
 
I`m glad to be living in a country were we have an old law "allemannsretten" that enables us to be out in the woods without being shot by a angry landlord.
We can pick berries, mushrooms and camp almost where we like.
Hunting , fishing and use of the natural resources are the land owner right though. But we also have plenty of state owned land to do this.

Tor

Same thing here in Finland too..
I really could'nt imaginze what it would be if forests would be full of "private property - trespassers will be shot" and "those who survive 1st shot will be shot again" signs..

Edit:

Eyegor: "Natural resources" in this case means stuff like minerals and gems. It's not allowed to mine them, but you can collect few samples of them even from private property. But you can't dig for 'em, only take what you see on surface.
 
Growing up here in So. Illinois myself, I FULLY understand what you are saying Possum.

We had several ponds on our farm that we dug for cattle watering and fishing, people frequently trespassed to fish in them and hunt our farm. If you've ever had livestock wounded by moron hunters, you know why we don't like trespassing!

I've got up in the morning to find a family of 6 set up with lawn chairs and picnic baskets fishing from my ponds, came home to find 3 grown men trespass fishing that refused to leave when I told them to (they changed their mind when I returned from the house with a Mossberg 500).

I have also noticed in my life, that the worse offenders are poeple from "in town" that head out to rural areas to entertain themselves at other peoples land. They seem to have WAY less respect for others land than rural people do.

My dad taught us boys a simple rule, "if you don't have permission from the land owner to be there, then you don't need to be there and anything you took off that land, fish, game or plant...you stole"
 
My dad taught us boys a simple rule, "if you don't have permission from the land owner to be there, then you don't need to be there and anything you took off that land, fish, game or plant...you stole"


AMEN, Your dad was a smart man.

I work hard to manage game and to improve the hunting on my lease, anyone that ignores the posted signs and hunts, camps, fishes, or rides ATVs without permission is a common thief with no respect for other peoples property. You wouldn't dig flowers out of someones lawn would you? What is the difference? Chris
 
You wouldn't dig flowers out of someones lawn would you? What is the difference? Chris

Nope, but I think it's silly when I get barked at by the housewife for simply walking on their grass.

I think it's an awfully silly notion to say you own a wild tree or rabbit that operates solely on its own. You going to lay claim to the rain and the air too? It's all just parts of nature that would exist whether you "owned" them or not. They are all part of earth, and so are we as much as many would like to deny that. The only thing that keeps me respecting these silly claims is respect for a person that has done me no intentional wrong. I think what they do is silly, but I have no good reason to upset them by hunting on "their" land if I'm not dependant upon those animals to survive. Things would be much different if respect for others were more common. Ideally, land and resources would be more openly shared, but assholes do a good job of keeping that notion buried in idealistic dust.
 
Nope, but I think it's silly when I get barked at by the housewife for simply walking on their grass.

If I don't know you and you are on my lawn I am going to ask why you are on my lawn too. Unfortunately in the world we live in a stranger is a potential enemy, looking for something to steal, or casing your house to see if anyone is home. Maybe I am overly paranoid but if you are on my property and are a stranger I will politely ask you to state your business, and then probably politely ask you to leave. Chris
 
Nope, but I think it's silly when I get barked at by the housewife for simply walking on their grass.

I think it's an awfully silly notion to say you own a wild tree or rabbit that operates solely on its own. You going to lay claim to the rain and the air too? It's all just parts of nature that would exist whether you "owned" them or not. They are all part of earth, and so are we as much as many would like to deny that. The only thing that keeps me respecting these silly claims is respect for a person that has done me no intentional wrong. I think what they do is silly, but I have no good reason to upset them by hunting on "their" land if I'm not dependant upon those animals to survive. Things would be much different if respect for others were more common. Ideally, land and resources would be more openly shared, but assholes do a good job of keeping that notion buried in idealistic dust.


What about cows, chickens, dogs and cats, or for that matter the shrubbery around my house. A rabbit, squirrel, deer or any other game animal that is on my land you can not hunt or kill it, as soon as it steps off feel free. Chris
 
-as I understand it-(as told to me by a former LEO and training specialist)

It is not trespassing unless the landowner asks you to leave, and you refuse.

It doesn't matter if you have posted signs, you still have to ask the people to leave.

Shooting trespassers just for being on your land will land you in prison.

Still, it is best to ask permission if you are going on someone's land- it is the polite thing to do.

There is a similar situation here in MN with businesses posting "no firearms allowed" signs on the door. You can carry your firearms in there all you want (and I do), but only if they ask you to leave and you refuse, will you get in trouble.
 
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