Trespassing

[Vivi]

It's an understandable attitude in today's world, really. My intentions may be pure as far as a persons lawn goes, but others would like the chance to rob that person or worse.

In my neighborhood crime is extremely low. Leave big packages on your porch for multiple days, front doors and cars doors unlocked, garage door open all the time....things like that will rarely ever cause you grief. We have roads, a curb, then lawns. Only a small fraction of the neighborhoods here have sidewalk. If I walk in the road I'm honked at like I have no right to be on the road or sped at my teenagers pretending to hit me. If I walk on the edge of peoples lawns I get the occaisonal barking and an abundance of nasty, distrustful stares, especially when their children are out. Again, I understand their attitude, but it's a little depressing to know I'm being treated that way based on my appearance, when I'd readily help them out with a variety of things just because of the person I am.

What about cows, chickens, dogs and cats, or for that matter the shrubbery around my house. A rabbit, squirrel, deer or any other game animal that is on my land you can not hunt or kill it, as soon as it steps off feel free. Chris

Shrubbery you've tended to by hand or livestock you've fed and raised yourself is a little different to me. That's much closer in my eyes to being under your ownership. I'd say it's more under your responsibility though, and while you'd like to extend that responsibility to the animals and planmts in the hypothetical 5 acres of forest behind your farm, I see a lot less justification for that attitude.

 

[Rainmaker870]

My thoughts on trespassing:

I own acreage in Colorado. I paid for it, I own it. The law says so.

Since it's mine, I expect people to ask permission before they use it. That expectation extends to my property, my tools, my vehicle, or anything else I own.

Most landowners are reasonable people. Being reasonable, however, does not carry with it the implication that it will be okay for you to use my property: permission to do so is granted, withheld or revoked at the owner's discretion.

I've come across people on horseback who were passing through. They stopped, introduced themselves, told me where they lived and continued on their way. I expect to see them again and I expect that meeting to be cordial.

I've come across people cutting donuts in my meadow with a 4-wheeler. I do not expect to see them again. I've come across people camped at my springbed, with a freshly-dug firepit and freshly erected tents. I don't expect to see them again either, although - had they asked my permission first - I would have given their request due consideration.

Public land exists for a reason. Private land exists for a reason. I believe people can reasonably be expected to recognize and abide by that distinction. If you want to use someone's land, then show up with a pair of pliers and some fence-wire; offer to keep an eye open for something that needs fixing.

Tough concept?

 

[runningboar]

Vivi,

I feed wildlife also.

The problem is that if it was the way you are talking there would be no fish or game because the jack lighters and game hogs would shoot/catch it all, trees would be cut down, old refrigerators would be dumped, and trails would be eroded from 4 wheeling. Not everyone, actually not many, respect nature the way you do, if private land was not private it would be destroyed I am sad to say.

Not everyone has enough money to own their own land or lease it, I hate to sound cold but that is what National Forests, Wildlife Management Areas, and other public land is for. If you spend much time on public land you will see the types of behavior that land owners want to guard against.

The last time I floated my favorite river, public land, I found and cut up a gill net across the stream, illegal anywhere, it was just left there to continue killing, I don't want this on any land especially my own. Chris

 

[pricecw]

I have land also. It is posted, gated and watched. We have had problems in the past, and endevour to keep them from happening again (theft, vandalism, etc). Now, my neighbors have been given permission to walk and hike on my land, one uses it as the most convienent way to the top of the mountain. I also have permission to be on their land and to hunt there when I am up during season. We respect each other, and that has in turn garnered respect.

That said, you would be met if you were caught and possibly held for the sherriff. If you do not respect an individual enough to request from them the privledge of being on their land, why should they respect you?

Also, around here, by law, posting is enough to make it tresspassing. Legally, you only need so many sqaure inches of orange paint, or one orange metal pole every 660 feet to post property as private. Crossing without permission is tresspassing (misdmeanor), damaging property or crops is criminal tresspass. If the person has land posted, and you break the branch of a tree, you could be into criminal tresspass (if it is forest land managed for the trees). This land could and does look "wild" but it is not uncared for, it is being managed for the trees in a way that allows animals to prosper on it.

--Carl

 

[bulgron]

This is a fascinating thread. Vivi's philosophies on property ownership appear to represent a very old attitude that goes back to primitive man. I know that many primitive societies cannot understand how you can own the land or the trees or the game on the land.

I find that philosophy very attractive and I wish the world could work that way. But in western society, and in particular in the United States of America, there seems to be an attitude that wilderness is there so that you can misbehave and wreck whatever you see. I can't count the number of times I've gone to a state park or other public campgrounds only to be surrounded by drunken idiots boozing it up until the wee hours of the morning. And, away from the campgrounds, more than once I've encountered 4-wheelers on a rampage, or snowmobiles (snow machines) careening without a thought through the woods, or even mountain bikers totally out of control on the hills that we share.

How many here have heard the conventional wisdom, "Don't go into the woods during hunting season or you'll get shot"? I've been told that time and again, to the point where I really don't like going into the woods during hunting season. What sort of responsibility does that speak of, when hunters are incapable of knowing what they're shooting at, exactly?

What is it about people, I wonder, that causes some number of them to act in such a boorish manner? Is it testosterone poisoning? But then, other western cultures seem to allow relatively free access to private land without all these problems. Is this a uniquely American problem? The ugly American, gone camping?

Is it any wonder that there's "No Trespassing" signs wherever you go? If I were to buy a bit of acerage somewhere, I know I wouldn't want drunkards on my land, cursing, throwing beer bottles everywhere, and generally trashing the place.

Ask permission. Be respectful. Why is that so hard to do?

Sorry for the off-topic post, but this particular issue is something of a sore spot for me.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

you cannot hold someone against their will, even if you find them trespassing.

 

[bulgron]

you cannot hold someone against their will, even if you find them trespassing.

You can if you make a citizen's arrest. Different places have different laws surrounding this, but a citizen's arrest is usually recognized in the legal code to some degree or another.

 

[Shann]

Very surprised by so many people here posting their land. I would have thought that a group that is comprised in large part of sportsmen would not do that. In Vermont, it is legal for a person to be on private land for hunting (provided you have a license, etc.) unless the land is posted. It almost impossible now to find a place to hunt because everybody has posted their land unless you have enough money to buy your own land or know people that own land.

I guess by and large, people like the idea of being able to hunt on open land, as long as its not THEIR land that is being hunted on.

Of course, everyone has the legal right to post their property. After all, you're the one paying for it.

 

[runningboar]

Why should anyone HAVE to share what they have worked long and hard for with you.

I run into this attitude all the time and just don't understand it. I spend my money, I work long and hard training my dogs, wearing out my boots scouting, planting food plots and pouring over maps to find good hunting spots, I have lots of people when they find out that I know where game or fish are, say "your going to have to take me hunting" or they want me to tell them where I am hunting/fishing. Why should I?

Why should I let any Tom, Dick, or Harry hunt and fish on my land?

 

[the possum]

About the only thing I hunt anymore is arrowheads, but I always go by the motto "signs are for people, fences are for cows".

So you're saying you have no problem knowingly tresspassing on someone else's property if there's no sign? Even if you have to climb over a fence to do so? Look, I know the laws differ in many areas, and in fact I think even around here you can't be charged with tresspassing unless the ground is posted. But at the same time, does this make it morally right?

Its tough to hunt down my way as there is no public land close to me . I,m not rich and am trying to find land that wouldn,t be good for anything but hunting to keep the cost down .

First off, you might want to start looking through plat maps and find out for sure whether there really is some public ground around. Like I said, there are public tracts here that the local authorities didn't even know they were in charge of. There's even one patch on the map labeled "Unknown Owner". Second, it sounds like you're well aware of what it takes to own the right to be a steward of the land. Expensive, ain't it? Like most folks, it doesn't really bother me that much if someone is just walking through for a lovely stroll in nature. It's the jerks that spoil it for everyone. And once you do own your little piece of heaven, you almost certainly will have to deal with some jerks.

That said, if I was in some kind of a pickle, lost and struggling and trying to get to a highway or someplace like that so I could get found, a No Tresspassing sign wouldn't stop me, not even for a microsecond.

And I wouldn't have a problem with that either, bulgron. Nor would 99.9% of the landowners I know.

I don't really believe in the concept of owning land. I think it's pretty ridiculous as a whole, though it does serve a multitude of practical purposes in modern society.

This is probably beyond the scope of this thread. Society as a whole (at least in America) has agreed that "buying" land is the best way to secure it for your personal use.

However if I know there's an area not being taken care of at all, not being used at all etc and it would make a nice little camp ground for myself, I have no problems going there and enjoying a few stays. Some of my most frequently visited areas fall under this category. I don't give a damn if you have a title or a deed to a patch of woods if it's in sorry shape, your home or business is not on it, it's not being used by you and it's probably going to get torn down and developed soon.

While I can at least thank you for not trying to cause problems intentionally, I very strongly disagree with your philosophy. In fact this thread might get moved to Whine & Cheese if I said what was really on my mind. You don't give a damn if I own the property, eh? You'll just wander on in and enjoy it for free any time you please. Do you even realize what you're saying here?
Vivi, would it really kill you to just ask permission first? You seem to have several such places accessible; maybe at least one of them would let you use their woods, and then you'd be legally and morally in the clear.

Now that I see your second reply, maybe I'll just come and pitch a tent in your back yard. I won't hurt anything, and hey, you're not using it since you're too busy tresspassing on other people's land. Or maybe I'll just move into your house. You don't actually own the property, and therefore anything on it, right?

akennedy, Thanks for taking the time to offer constructive advice. Rest assured we're already doing all we can, including trusts.

My dad's property has a 4 acre pond that borders railroad and his concern was that some trespasser would fall in and drown and the idiots family would file a lawsuit. That's what the signs are for because they don't really keep a**holes off your property.

Thanks for bringing up this point. There are a host of legal issues that can come up when other people are on your property, including liability for accidents. Even if you say you're not trying to cause trouble and wouldn't sue the landowner if you got hurt on his land, do you think your insurance company shares the same view? Or the widow or children you leave behind?
Also, at least here, we have laws that say after you've used a piece of property for something after a certain amount of time, (20 years I think) then you gain the legal right to continue using it. (I'm not sure if this only applies to the original person, or if it transfers to his family or heirs.) Even if I don't mind you camping in my woods now and then, I don't want you to have the legal right to bring your family or friends over whenever you wish.

John & Runningboar, thanks for your sentiments.

We had several ponds on our farm that we dug for cattle watering and fishing, people frequently trespassed to fish in them and hunt our farm. If you've ever had livestock wounded by moron hunters, you know why we don't like trespassing!

I've got up in the morning to find a family of 6 set up with lawn chairs and picnic baskets fishing from my ponds, came home to find 3 grown men trespass fishing that refused to leave when I told them to (they changed their mind when I returned from the house with a Mossberg 500).

Don't sound like fun at all man. I've heard stories about farmers who had to round up their cattle before deer season, and use bright orange spray paint to write "COW" on the sides of the animals so they wouldn't get shot.

Just a couple weeks ago, I stopped to do a bit of squirrel hunting in our woods on the way back from checking the cattle out in the pasture. I wasn't too far into the woods when I heard voices. At first I thought it was just some kids walking down the road, but then it became clear the voices were within the woods. Two girls about 13 or so were laughing and singing, and jumped down into the nearly dry creek bed to splash in the water. I watched 'em for a minute before saying, "Nice day for a stroll, eh girls?" They jumped and said, "Gosh you scared me! How do you get out of here?" Oh, please. You could walk a quarter mile in 3 directions & be out of the woods. They knew they were tresspassing. I pointed them to the road with no further comments. Really it didn't bother me too bad, and I certainly didn't draw the .45 on my hip, but I don't exactly appreciate them making a ruckus and leaving scent all over our woods this close to deer season. And maybe if they knew the neighbor had just seen a mountain lion within 50 yards of this spot, they'd have thought better of it too.

I could go on with lots of stories about simple tresspassing we've dealt with. Never had to resort to a gun yet, (only because we didn't catch the meth heads in the act) but I can see we're on the same page, TLC.

 

[pricecw]

You can if you make a citizen's arrest. Different places have different laws surrounding this, but a citizen's arrest is usually recognized in the legal code to some degree or another.

Again, this is a case of know your laws, generally, if it is a felony, then citizen arrest is allowed.

--Carl

 

[silenthunterstudios]

You can if you make a citizen's arrest. Different places have different laws surrounding this, but a citizen's arrest is usually recognized in the legal code to some degree or another.

Is it recognized by the person you're arresting, in the middle of your thick forest, with your 22 bolt action single shot, while they calmly unload their high powered hunting rifle? Not trying to start anything, but just being realistic. From what I've seen, citizens arrests only work when large groups are able to stop an unarmed suspect.


Trespassing while hunting is poaching as far as I'm concerned. Guys used to light up the local farms spotting deer. I believe that their trucks had some nice holes a few oldtimers put in the tailgate. No one does it anymore to my recollection.

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Nope, but I think it's silly when I get barked at by the housewife for simply walking on their grass.

I think it's an awfully silly notion to say you own a wild tree or rabbit that operates solely on its own. You going to lay claim to the rain and the air too? It's all just parts of nature that would exist whether you "owned" them or not. They are all part of earth, and so are we as much as many would like to deny that. The only thing that keeps me respecting these silly claims is respect for a person that has done me no intentional wrong. I think what they do is silly, but I have no good reason to upset them by hunting on "their" land if I'm not dependant upon those animals to survive. Things would be much different if respect for others were more common. Ideally, land and resources would be more openly shared, but assholes do a good job of keeping that notion buried in idealistic dust.

Interesting. I had a Native American landowner neighbor who had many of these same feelings. However, if one thought he could walk across this mans private land without repercussions, he had another thing coming.

I own my own land and woods here in the mountains of Oregon. I worked almost a lifetime to gain as much property as I have. This land was not only a decent financial investment for my family and their future, but I enjoy the peace and solitude these woods provide for us. "Silly" to think we can own land, trees, animals, etc? Not "silly" at all if you have ever owned your own lands. I personally believe, though, we are to be "good stewards" and managers of the land, woods, animals, etc., in our possession. Keeping those individuals off my land that would harm the land (and they have), is not silly at all. Keeping individuals off my land altogether, if I so choose, is not silly either. Until God or country takes this land from me, I will manage it the way I see best fit.

In the past, I have allowed people from time-to-time, to camp and hunt on my property with permission. Several left cross-fencing gates open (had livestock escape), even ran over my fences with their trucks! They would leave garbage laying around, cut down trees for campfires (I didn't authorize), shoot at livestock without identifying whether it was elk, deer, or moo cow. No sir, it wasn't silly of me at all to boot them off the land...because quite simply, it is MY land by definition of law, my God-given, right-thinking, common sense duty to do so.

Now, if you think you have to hunt the animals on my property to survive (as you alluded to), come up to the ranch house and I'll feed you. I know of NO ranchers in my area that would refuse a hungry man or his family.

 

[the possum]

Shooting trespassers just for being on your land will land you in prison.

Look at the other side of the coin, Rat. He may go to prison, but that won't bring you back to life, will it? Unfortunately not all land owners are stable individuals, either.

A friend of mine in high school was out riding his 4 wheeler, trespassing on several people's woods. He claims he got lost, and when he saw a house in the woods, he went up to ask the man for directions. The man ran out of the house with a shotgun, and cracked him a good one upside the head with the barrel. My friend heard a shot as he fled, with blood running down his face. (guy fired up into the air for effect, it seems.) The guy got in trouble with the law. That didn't heal the big purple goose egg on the side of my friend's head.

If he had told this loon "I don't give a damn if you think you own the woods. I'll go anywhere I want," as espoused by Vivi, he probably would have been dead before finishing the second sentence.

 

[WEB2]

2 things:

if it is not yours you do NOT belong in it or on it, fenced or not fenced, signs or no signs.

ATV = all trespass vehicle....just because you own one doesn't give you permission to go anywhere you want.

 

[Suerte]

About the only thing I hunt anymore is arrowheads, but I always go by the motto "signs are for people, fences are for cows". Of course, we've got a lot of BLM and Forest Service land out west, so there's lots of public stuff that's leased out to ranchers and ok to be on.

Gordon

It's my understanding that arrowhead hunting on BLM land* is against the law now.

*I sure miss all the public land that was available in NM. TX doesn't have any to my knowledge.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

quick question: where do I find the maps that show land ownership? are they available online, or at the DNR offices?

The reason I ask, is there is a spot I go to shoot that is down a service road, there are no houses anywhere nearby, the land is not marked, and I suspect it is state forest property. be nice to know what's what, and to find good areas for camping.

 

[Shann]

quick question: where do I find the maps that show land ownership? are they available online, or at the DNR offices?

The reason I ask, is there is a spot I go to shoot that is down a service road, there are no houses anywhere nearby, the land is not marked, and I suspect it is state forest property. be nice to know what's what, and to find good areas for camping.

I don't know if its the same for your state, but our Fish & Wildlife department has maps of the State wildlife districts which are open for hunting, fishing, etc. I found Vermont's on line or you can check with your fish and game division. Probably also information available at your state forestry office. As far as privately held land, your Country Clerk or Town Clerk probably has tax maps.

Also,, I don't know if federal land is open like that for hunting and such, but I would imagine that the local National Forest office would have some of that information.

 

[JD Mandrell]

you cannot hold someone against their will, even if you find them trespassing.

Yes you can, if trepassing is a crime in your state, then you can hold them for the authorities.

 

[ajcz]

i always ask if i can cross some ones elses land or any thing like that because what if they are studying it or something or getting ready to plant something there and you trample it all down and disturb thier study plot?