Ultimate Fighting Busse?

[Last Visible Canary]

Brendan, not trying to get confrontational, just want a more detailed opinion. you have to admit that many of jerry's knives are for fighting right?

They are not. They are combat knives. This is a distinction that many forgo that is very important as it has a huge impact on geometry.

Fighting: hand to hand altercations where the primary purpose is that of a weapon
Combat: In the field (combat zone) utility knife where the primary purpose is cutting fabrics, digging, breaking through walls, and possibly hand to hand fighting.


Given it's primary purpose of a combat knife the edge and tip has to be thick enough to take significant impacts from hard objects like rocks and brick. It needs to be thick enough to pry with. It can have additional features that give it greater utility like the choil.

None of that is the case for fighters. Fighters should be built like stiff butcher knives, that is their primary purpose.

 

[rega25]

I see what you mean, but if you look closely, I said "many" are for fighting, you be the judge on what many is, but some are just fighters, you must admit, purebred "fighter", argonne "Assault", his kensei swords are made for fighting, you want a quick knife for fighting, and a thick one for combat utility. and since you threw definations in, heres one
com·bat (km-bt, kmbt)
v. com·bat·ed or com·bat·ted, com·bat·ing or com·bat·ting, com·bats
v.tr.
1. To oppose in battle; fight against.
2. To oppose vigorously; struggle against. See Synonyms at oppose.
v.intr.
To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.
n. (kmbt)
Fighting, especially armed battle; strife. See Synonyms at conflict.
adj. (kmbt)
1. Of or relating to combat: flew 50 combat missions.
2. Intended for use or deployment in combat: combat boots; combat

Websters:
Main Entry: 1com·bat
Pronunciation: \ˈkäm-ˌbat\
Function: noun
Etymology: Anglo-French, from combatre to attack, fight, from Vulgar Latin *combattere, from Latin com- + battuere to beat
Date: 1546
1 : a fight or contest between individuals or groups
2 : conflict, controversy
3 : active fighting in a war : action <casualties suffered in combat>


I am seeing alot of "fightings" in there, just saying. I really do see what you are saying, if you are going to war, and could carry one knife, it would be something light but strong that you could fight with and use for utility. but i for one would take a fighting knife and a utility knife if i could

 

[Last Visible Canary]

I am seeing alot of "fightings" in there, just saying.

I stand by what I said. How often, in combat, do you expect a soldier to ever use his knife for hand to hand fighting? Jerry doesn't design his knives for the .001% of a soldiers needs, he does it for the other 99.999% - a lot of which is hard use that requires a thick edge and tip.

I'm not going off of the Websters dictionary definition because it's a general overview of all combat from all ages and in all contexts. To combat a flu, to combat social injustice, and to engage in verbal combat with you friend has nothing to do with this. pre-1900 there was a whole lot more knife action in the field than there is today. The term 'Combat' has changed significantly where it refers specifically to military action. The "Combat" in Busse Combat signifies military use, which involves very little hand to hand fighting in the modern era of projectile weaponry, but does involve whole lot of hard use. Jerry builds his knives for that hard use.

And I'm not trying to put words in jerry's mouth, if he says differently that's fine. I'm speaking of the end product, the 40+ knives from him I've handled. Nearly all of them are built for hard use with thick edges and thick tips. There have been a select few stand outs like the BAD, AD and sus scrofa, but by and large they are all built to be beaten on - not to be butcher knives.

"Public defender" and "pure bred fighter" might sound like they were great for hand to hand fighting right? No. They aren't. They are terrible for anything requiring you to cut something. The edges on those knives are so thick that with the public defender I couldn't cut myself with the factory edge. I couldn't cut anything with it. and not because it wasn't sharpened - it was because the edge was 50+ degree's per side with a ton of metal behind it.

It took me hours to remove the amount of metal to get the edge down to a reasonable 30 degrees per side on this 4" pbf:

The tip sharpening bevel was actually around 45 degree's, I had to bring it down because I would have eaten the entire main grind at 30 degrees. That is not a knife that is designed to butcher anything except a car door. and thats fine. Jerry makes one of the few knives that can handle butchering a car door: my point is that they are not designed for hand to hand fighting, by and large they are a million miles away from the geometry you would want to butcher an animal (which is exactly what hand to hand fighting is). They are however about what you would want to protect the edge from severe damage in case it impacts something hard like a rock.

 

[pmsayre153]

IMHO, LVC has made a good distinction between fighting knives and combat knives. Our troops are issued assault rifles and bayonets, which are combat knives. Because they do have the rifles, they are used those in most situations when in contact with an enemy force and the bayonet is usually relegated to a general utility role, opening boxes, etc.
Special forces troops, who tend to have a stealthier type of mission, may also carry a fighting knife, such as something offered by the EK Commando Knife Co.. These are partially or completely double edged, have no choil to hang up on whatever it might be that they are slashing or stabbing, and are usually used strictly for quietly dispatching one's opponent.
To your original question, again IMHO, the closest thing Busse Combat has produced to date would be the Integral Hilt Dagger, followed, perhaps, by the choilless Boss Jack.
My two cents.
Pete

 

[rega25]

I see your point, however you skimmed over the 6" and 8" pbf, they have to be fighting knives man, they have super slim tips that can pierce armor, and the hook on the spine to disengage a weapon, and come on, the ak's are for combat only, All i wanted was for someone to acknowledge that Jerry has made quite a few "fighting" knives, sole purpose for defending one's life and for (Drumroll) taking anothers if necessary. you are right about combat having multiple meanings, ill give you that, i just put the def's in because fighting was in there so much. Thats whats cool about Busses, there are multiple knives for multiple tasks, utility, combat/utility, and fighting, even cooking lol (XXL Nick) we have to admit that knives have historical purposes. kabars were fighting /utility knives, but had to be a great fighting knife first, with the blood groove and guard was designed to stop another blade on the double guard model just like the pbf hook. the world war trench knife was designed thin so that it would pass in between ribs. and you can't tell me that if you slashed a pbf hard on skin that it wouldnt lacerate, im talking 50+lbs of force, even a dull knife will cut. All I am asking is to admit that some of his knives are for fighting only!! I am going to hound you until you admit it lol. At least admit that the Argonne Assault is a fighting knive, please, im dying here

 

[Last Visible Canary]

I see your point, however you skimmed over the 6" and 8" pbf, they have to be fighting knives man, they have super slim tips that can pierce armor, and the hook on the spine to disengage a weapon,

there's two problems with that. the 6" and 8" pbf's don't have thin tips even if their slim/slender. yeah, they would work like an ice pick - but everything edge related on them is thick, just like the 4" pbf.

and the hook disengaging a weapon? Try it. Seriously. Try to disengage anything with that hook without having whatever it is your disengaging cut your wrist or slip out of the tiny little blade catch.

with the blood groove

not a blood groove, a fuller. 'blood groove' doesn't actually do anything in regards to blood. a fuller lightens and (very slightly) stiffens the blade.

and guard was designed to stop another blade on the double guard model just like the pbf hook. the world war trench knife was designed thin so that it would pass in between ribs. and you can't tell me that if you slashed a pbf hard on skin that it wouldnt lacerate, im talking 50+lbs of force, even a dull knife will cut. All I am asking is to admit that some of his knives are for fighting only!! I am going to hound you until you admit it lol

The world war trench knife isn't remotely related to the design and geometry of any of the busse knives, even the daggers. Those trench knives had one task and one task only, that of a stabbing weapon. as such, their design excelled at what it was designed for, and sucked at anything utility related.

I'm not even joking when I say this: even with a hard push I would not have lacerated my skin with the forward edge of the stock public defender I received. The tip yes - but then I can say the same thing about slashing a person with an ice pick. What you've said signifies a knife that isn't made for fighting, you should never have to think "50+lbs of force, even a dull knife will cut" of a stock geometry knife that your buying as a fighter.

Jerry's fighters (the ones he's titled as such), as far as I'm concerned, aren't fighters. They are heavy use utility knives that are made to look more fighter/tactical in image: not in geometry or features.


except the knuckle dusters on the argonne assault. By virtue of having knuckles alone that knife is made less utility and more fighter. I'd still get rid of the choil to make it complete.

 

[din]

a game warden in a sock.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

a game warden in a sock.

:thumbup:

seriously, I haven't laughed that hard in a long time...

 

[beefangusbeef]

ST-56 hands down no competition. It's one of the few designs that has utility as a far second.

 

[rega25]

http://www.ironcrane.com/html/kdez.htm
This has some pretty cool info. I guess I am not going to change your mind that some of these knives are fighters, you never did fully admit that the argonne assault or AK/ruck were for fighting, I guess samurai swords were for battoning too. I just got a PBF set in and if i sliced my arm with 6-8 pounds of pressure, it would cut the heck out of me. you are right about the fuller, i have just heard that it helps pulling it out after stabbing because of the suction, but the guard on it was designed to stop an opponent's weapon on the kabar. The hook on the back of the pbf is better than nothing and it is designed to guide an attacking blade in a controlled direction better than traditional guards can imo, im just saying, thinner, narrower blades with a sharp angle tip have always been fighting knives whether you like it or not. They may not be good for fighting in your opinion, but they are designed for nothing other than hand to hand combat, Jerry did not make the PBF, AK, or Argonne for battoning or prying, or cooking. Just to be ogled over and if necessary, be infi slayers. you have to at least admit that they were supposed to be fighters, even if you dont think they are good ones. Let us not forget the DSSFighter, check, your move

 

[EnduringEagle]

There are combat knives. There are camping knives and there are butter knives. They don't all do the same thing. Having had some experience in this topic I would say that no one wins a knife fight. There are just levels of losing and losing ugly. Having said that this is the knife I own for that purpose if the situation should arise.

 

[knife hunter]

Well, for a good laugh:thumbup:

The Ultimate Fighting Busse would be......


ME!






but did you all forget about these

IMHO, although I would also prefer the blade to be choil-less for what has already been stated an extremely specific tool, but I see more functionality w/o choil for more application than the .001%


But because I am such a bad mofo IF you came in my house in close quarters I would use the choil as more of a hooking tool to pull your ignorance right into the barrell of my .45

 

[Last Visible Canary]

you never did fully admit that the argonne assault or AK/ruck were for fighting, I guess samurai swords were for battoning too.

I never said that. The AK/ruck and the argonne assault are both models that are built like combat knives regardless of their stated purpose. The ak and ruck kensai both have really thick edges that are designed to withstand heavy abuse. Even if they are designed in shape to be fighters - their geometry hinders them in that task. They are built like combat knives.

it helps pulling it out after stabbing because of the suction,

seriously, stop believing in that kind of statement until you try it yourself. If you think fullers help with sucktion, go buy half a pig at the local butcher and try it out. Same goes for any statement - example: if you think mace will stop a guy from getting at you, get maced and see if you could manage to keep fighting: you can, you just have to do it blind. Don't beleive things that may risk your life until you've tried them.

but the guard on it was designed to stop an opponent's weapon on the kabar. The hook on the back of the pbf is better than nothing and it is designed to guide an attacking blade in a controlled direction better than traditional guards can imo,

Try it. and not slow motion - get some red markers, some white clothes, make a copy out of cutting board or wood and try to "guide an attacking blade in a controlled direction" off of the back of your knife in the middle of a fight. and make it realistic - put some gear on and really go to town.

im just saying, thinner, narrower blades with a sharp angle tip have always been fighting knives whether you like it or not. They may not be good for fighting in your opinion,

I didn't say that. I said they are they have really thick edges and a thick tip. Making the slender might make them better at stabbing - but they are still terrible at cutting/slicing. The tip can be used as a weapon, that doesn't mean the knife is streamlined or 'better than' as a fighter. I'll take a full flat drop point that has a thin edge and tip over the massively overbuilt slender tipped pbf hands down.

but they are designed for nothing other than hand to hand combat, Jerry did not make the PBF, AK, or Argonne for battoning or prying, or cooking.

This statement stands out as being completely contradictory to how busse combat tests their knives. Every knife they have gets tested to make sure that if some guy takes it to a brick and tries to pry his car door open with it that it won't break. Shape wise, no the pbf, ak and argonne assault aren't designed to baton and do camp chores. Geometry wise they most certainly are.

Just to be ogled over and if necessary, be infi slayers. you have to at least admit that they were supposed to be fighters, even if you dont think they are good ones. Let us not forget the DSSFighter, check, your move

DSSFighter again has a thick edge and tip, made for combat uses. As I said if jerry calls them fighters thats fine - the geometry says otherwise. IF you removed the choil and thinned down the pbf's they would be fantastic fighters, the size, shape, and ergonomics are amazing. But as they are, from jerry, they are built to be abuse tanks - with geometry that hinders them in their 'fighter' designation.

 

[adrock1978]

...or you could just answer the question. I would say either the tanto edged force one, like in my avatar, or the above mentioned ST-56. Two knives designed around fighting.

 

[JohnnyDarko]

Being a Combat Veteran I can only use my experience, I used many different blades while deployed. I had and still have a cold steel kukri, But I never used that in Iraq. (Used all over europe to build hooches). I had a ka bar that I used a lot, and I mean used. As was stated earlier when you are in a combat zone, most of what you use a knife for is as a tool. I sliced, diced, chopped, (opened MRE's) hammered and did just about anything else a knife can be used for. I will say INFI would have been great, but I did not know about them at the time. I have been in situations that almost required the use of a knife, just to live, however honestly if that situation had gotten crazier I don't even know if I would have thought to draw my knife because we don't really train in the army so I don't really have the muscle memory to do that in a dynamic fighting incident. That being said, this is a completely valid thread and question. I will say that too many people have opinions which are great but when the rubber meets the road, the perfect knife is the one in your hand at the time.

My knife of choice from Iraq was the benchmade nimravus that was issued to me. It is still one of my favorites and I think it one of the best all around, Combat oriented knives.

 

[Ekdrm2d1]

Doesn't the Green Beret's recommend that the best blade size for a fighter is at 7 inches?

I've pieced answers to this question together from a few older threads, but I'm not sure there has been a thread dedicated to it. What say you? Which is the best Busse for self-defense/knife fighting situation? What is the ultimate non-Busse?

I've heard the Chris Reeve Knives Green Beret 7" is a good fighter.

 

[EnduringEagle]

Being a Combat Veteran I can only use my experience, I used many different blades while deployed. I had and still have a cold steel kukri, But I never used that in Iraq. (Used all over europe to build hooches). I had a ka bar that I used a lot, and I mean used. As was stated earlier when you are in a combat zone, most of what you use a knife for is as a tool. I sliced, diced, chopped, (opened MRE's) hammered and did just about anything else a knife can be used for. I will say INFI would have been great, but I did not know about them at the time. I have been in situations that almost required the use of a knife, just to live, however honestly if that situation had gotten crazier I don't even know if I would have thought to draw my knife because we don't really train in the army so I don't really have the muscle memory to do that in a dynamic fighting incident. That being said, this is a completely valid thread and question. I will say that too many people have opinions which are great but when the rubber meets the road, the perfect knife is the one in your hand at the time.

My knife of choice from Iraq was the benchmade nimravus that was issued to me. It is still one of my favorites and I think it one of the best all around, Combat oriented knives.

+1 on this. When it hits the fan you have to hit the fan back with what you have.

 

[rega25]

you are right about the fuller, for sure, i looked it up, i will admit that. Thank you Trevor for at least admiting that they were intended for fighters. Last Visible Canary, could you post some pics of what fighting knives that have good geometry to you would be? maybe a dagger, a single edge, a sword. I dont understand why you think the geometry of the aa, ak, and pbf are so bad. you dont want the blade to be so sharp it is brittle, and you do want the option of slashing and stabbing, hence the thinner profile. imo. i know the hook on the pbf's probably dont work that well, but i am sure it does in the hands of a trained fighter, it has an intended purpose, historically speaking. I would think you would not want the fighting knife to be too thin so that it wouldnt break under extreme punishment, then you would really be screwed, like kitchen knife thin?? Is that your ideal fighting knife thickness?

 

[stanley_white]

Concur with Last Visible Canary

If you think you know knife fighting, go train with Southnarc from www.shivworks.com and I guarantee you a preconceived-notion-shattering experience that is second to none.

In addition you could train with a Shock-Knife and standby for your visions of knife fighting a la "The Hunted" to be shattered.

-Stan

 

[Last Visible Canary]

My knife of choice from Iraq was the benchmade nimravus that was issued to me. It is still one of my favorites and I think it one of the best all around, Combat oriented knives.

that is an awesome model, nice handle with a thin edge. I don't know that I'd trust the 154cm or m2 for much prying, but for everything else it's fantastic.