Unknown Steel Question.

Dustin,
I'm afraid you don't understand the terms used for steel. Air hardening, oil hardening, and water hardening are terms used in industry to refer to how the steel is processed commercially. It is not specifically an indication of what it will harden in.

If the steel you have is 1095 ( a spring steel technically, but often referred to as a tool steel), it will harden in oil if the oil is the right type. Just sticking it in a quart of Pennzoil won't tell you much. Conversely, you could stick O-1, A-2, 1095, 1050, and W-1 in a bucket of water, and they would all get hard. That wouldn't tell you much either (beyond the fact that there was more than 30-40 points of carbon). Then there are the stainless steels that are often referred to as "tool steels". They won't get hard in oil or water, unless heated to 500-600F above non-magnetic.

I know that the person said "tool steel", but that means different things to different folks, and I have seen a lot of machinists and others who should know better call all precision ground bars of steel "tool steel".

The choices of what your piece of your steel could are be endless, and many will make a great knife....with the right HT....., but a wonderful steel, that is given the wrong HT may make a poor knife. If it was M-4 it can give you a fantastic hard blade, but only with the right HT, done by the old "non-magnetic and quench in oil" routine, and M-4 won't even get hard.

Stacy
 
Dustin,
I'm afraid you don't understand the terms used for steel. Air hardening, oil hardening, and water hardening are terms used in industry to refer to how the steel is processed commercially. It is not specifically an indication of what it will harden in.
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I did not really know that.
What exactly do you mean by "how the steel is processed commericially"?

If the steel you have is 1095 ( a spring steel technically, but often referred to as a tool steel), it will harden in oil if the oil is the right type. Just sticking it in a quart of Pennzoil won't tell you much. Conversely, you could stick O-1, A-2, 1095, 1050, and W-1 in a bucket of water, and they would all get hard. That wouldn't tell you much either (beyond the fact that there was more than 30-40 points of carbon). Then there are the stainless steels that are often referred to as "tool steels". They won't get hard in oil or water, unless heated to 500-600F above non-magnetic.
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Well that sucks cuz all I have is a bucket of canola mixed with motor oil. I figured any oil hardening steel would at least get somewhat hard even when quenched in something less than AAA. :confused: I know it's not stainless.. it's got patches of rust on it but, it might have a decent amount of chromium in it because there isn't too much rust. Who knows.

I know that the person said "tool steel", but that means different things to different folks, and I have seen a lot of machinists and others who should know better call all precision ground bars of steel "tool steel".
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It may or may not be "tool steel" but, I do know that from my testing it is high carbon steel with an excellent grain structure. The steel I have is not a flat ground bar of steel, it's curved like a giant leaf spring but, that's not what it is. My uncle had told me that it comes in giant rolls, hence why it is curved. I don't know.

I think I just need to get this stuff analyzed because you're right, there's no other way to tell what I have. Thanks for your help, Stacy.
 
O thing you need to find out is what temp the steel was at when you quench it. i have found that you can take a2 or d2 and if it is heated to say 1475-1525 the normal temp for other steels like 5160 and plane carbon steel and you quench it in oil it will just get a little hard meaning that you can still file it and you wont know its hard just by filing. but if it is quenched in water it will get harder like around 60RC. so playing the guessing game does not really yeald a lot unless you have access to the tools to be able to deduct logical results from. but if a2 or d2 is taken to 1800-1825 it will air harden and not even need to be quenched in anything and it will get very hard above 63RC. so some times you need to bite the bullet and do things the right way and spend some cash so you can know what your working with. because you might end up using up the whole bar of steel just trying to find out want it is. then where will you be.
 
DustinHall said:
What exactly do you mean by "how the steel is processed commericially"?
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I'm certainly not going to speak for Stacy, but I believe what he means is something like this: Standardized info published by the mills for any given steel may or may not be optimal for knifemaking. For instance, D2 wasn't designed for knives, it was designed for dies and other industrial applications. It also happens to make excellent knives, but the best HT for a 100# rotary die like I used in my printing/converting career, and a 3/16" thick hunting knife blade are not the same.

Different applications require different attributes, and different processes to achieve those characteristics. The industrial info states that W2 (a "water-quenched" alloy) performs very well when quenched in water for big pieces, but highly respected knifemakers have written many times that in a thin cross-section like a knife blade, it's almost guaranteed to crack when quenched in water.

DustinHall said:
I think I just need to get this stuff analyzed because you're right, there's no other way to tell what I have.
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I would. As your preliminary testing seems to show, you have a LOT of good free steel on your hands, and it will serve you well to figure out the best way to deal with it and inform your customers accurately. $50 or even $100 for that amount of steel and confidence is a damn good investment. You can make that back by selling one good knife.

I'm NOT passing myself off as an expert here; I'm very, very new to the HT game! But I know enough to know that we should seek expert opinions in our specific field so we can lessen our chances of wasting time and materials, or worse yet, having a knife fail somewhere down the road. I mentioned D2 earlier, which I'm beginning to work with; luckily for me, some of the experienced guys here have really opened my eyes with tips and solid information to make the best of it. Without thier help, it would cost me a great deal of time and money to figure out how to deal with it properly.

JTknives said:
...some times you need to bight the bullet and do things the right way and spend some cash so you can know what your working with. because you might end up using up the whole bar of steel just trying to find out want it is. then where will you be?
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Exactly. Go for it! Learn how to get it right the first time! And most of all, enjoy the learning process. This stuff is interesting and fun. :)
 
I would. As your preliminary testing seems to show, you have a LOT of good free steel on your hands, and it will serve you well to figure out the best way to deal with it and inform your customers accurately. $50 or even $100 for that amount of steel and confidence is a damn good investment. You can make that back by selling one good knife.
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Lol. I don't have any customers yet. Hopefully that might change soon because this knife making stuff is expensive!

I'm NOT passing myself off as an expert here; I'm very, very new to the HT game! But I know enough to know that we should seek expert opinions in our specific field so we can lessen our chances of wasting time and materials, or worse yet, having a knife fail somewhere down the road.
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I totally agree. I don't know what I'd do without all the help I get here.
 
Personally, I'd stick it in the corner of the shop until money is not so tight, and spend the money you'd spend for testing on some known steel.
Getting samples tested isn't cheap.

If you get it tested and it's good, then it's money WELL spent. If it turns out to be something that you don't want, then it turns out to be money you should have spent on known material.
 
JTknives said:
O thing you need to find out is what temp the steel was at when you quench it. i have found that you can take a2 or d2 and if it is heated to say 1475-1525 the normal temp for other steels like 5160 and plane carbon steel and you quench it in oil it will just get a little hard meaning that you can still file it and you wont know its hard just by filing. but if it is quenched in water it will get harder like around 60RC. so playing the guessing game does not really yeald a lot unless you have access to the tools to be able to deduct logical results from. but if a2 or d2 is taken to 1800-1825 it will air harden and not even need to be quenched in anything and it will get very hard above 63RC. so some times you need to bite the bullet and do things the right way and spend some cash so you can know what your working with. because you might end up using up the whole bar of steel just trying to find out want it is. then where will you be.
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Thanks, JT. I have no way of measuring those high temps, only a magnet and my eyes. As soon as I've got some extra money I'll see about getting it analyzed.
 
NickWheeler said:
Personally, I'd stick it in the corner of the shop until money is not so tight, and spend the money you'd spend for testing on some known steel.
Getting samples tested isn't cheap.

If you get it tested and it's good, then it's money WELL spent. If it turns out to be something that you don't want, then it turns out to be money you should have spent on known material.
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That is exactly what I'm going to do, Nick. Thanks.
 
Nick's idea is a very reasonable one. If it is a high alloy tool steel, you would likely need to spend more to get the proper equipment to do it. Sorry I didn't think of that :o That's what I meant about getting opinions from experienced guys. ;)

You can get some 1080-series steel for pretty cheap, and as far as I know you can HT it reasonably well with what you've already got. And if you don't want that chunk you've got, send it to me. :D
 
If it's a steel that I'm unable to HT properly, I'll either send it out for HT or offer it for sale or trade. I do need to get some 1080 though because I like doing my own heat treating and from what I hear it's pretty much fail proof.
 
Dustin,
I think that you are getting a lot of good advise. I still suggest getting a piece tested when you can. It might be a good find.

Some thoughts on the problems with all this:
You are testing a piece of steel, but also state that you don't exactly know how to test it, what the results tell you, and have any real control over the tests ( temperatures, quenchants, etc.).

This is the biggest problem with testing unknown steel. If you have the experience, shop tests and observations may help, but without that experience, they often mislead you.

An example is the statement that you know that it is not stainless ,because it rusts. Stainless steel is not stainless to a high degree until after HT. It will rust fairly easily in the untreated state, and can rust even after HT.

You stated that you know that it is high carbon with excellent grain structure. I'm not sure you understand grain structure,or carbon content, but it will take a metallurgical microscope to analyze the grain structure, and that really won't tell you much about the steel, as the grain structure is a result of the HT, not the carbon content. carbon content above .50% will harden, and throw lots of sparks.

You said it was curved and came in huge rolls, but is not a spring. That is exactly how spring steel is shipped. Huge rolls of 5160, 9260, and several other similar steels are shipped that way to make car and truck springs ( and other industrial springs).
They all make good knives and are fairly easy to HT. Knowing exactly which steel you piece is will answer all these questions.

If you want, send me a small piece of the steel (about 2X2") and I will get it analyzed for you ( and everyone else's curiosity). Send me a PM or email about the shipping address.

Please don't get offended at the above statements.They are not meant to ridicule your tests . I am pointing out the flaws in shop tests and assumptions in general, not just yours. Many others have made the same assumptions.
Reading up on metallurgy can help with the understanding of some of this.

Stacy
 
Awesome!! That is so cool of you, Stacy. I'm going to take you up on that offer. Thanks a ton! Check your email. :)

And no, I'm not offended at all.. I appreciate that you more experienced guys are willing to share your knowledge and experience with me... I'm all ears! .. er, eyes.
 
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And that is the reason I love this place. Good advice, willingness to help out each other.
Stacy thanks for being around and for helping this guy out. Jim
 
DustinHall said:
Are 1095, W1, and W2 the only water hardening tool steels?
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No, but W1 is the most commonly found water quench found in machine shops. It is also what MSC sells as "tool steel". It does not contain a lot of chrome.
 
Beyond all of the great advice that has been given in this thread, I'd like to add one more little piece of advice.

Always, use a sharpie to mark each piece of steel in your shop as to what it is. If you do all the testing in the world and then lay the piece of known steel in the corner until you're ready to use it, without marking on it what it is, you might just forget over time what it is. It might sit there for months, maybe years. Eventually, you'll have a pile of steel leaning in the corner and have no idea which piece is which steel. All of the testing will have been for nothing.

This includes the mild steels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't believe me, Mr. Cashens newest thread should explain why it's even important to mark the mild steels!
 
Ok, I'm sorry to say that I was incorrect about it getting hard in the water quench. I must have fooled myself or something. I tried it again and while it gets seemingly a little harder, it's no where near quenched o1. Which doesn't make sense because the spark test tells me it's high carbon and it's supposed to be some kind of tool steel according to my uncle. I'm anxious to hear from Stacy again and if it turns out to be nothing, I sincerely appologize for wasting your time. I'm really hoping that isn't the case. :/
 
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