Update on 7" knife test concerning MAD DOG.

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Mike Turber

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News from Mad Dog is that he claims that the knife I used in the test is a FAKE MAD DOG ATAK. He bases this on the notch you see at the bottom of the tang in the pic below. He claims that he puts the notch into each knife which fails heat treat and that the notch tells him the knife is to be scraped and NOT made into a final product.
mad-busse-handle.jpg


I have no clue as to how this knife could end up at a MAD DOG dealer. Mad Dog claims that the knife is at least three years old and that puts in the time frame he feels he was having knives stolen from his shop.

The knife was sent to me by a forum member who bought it 8 months ago from a Mad Dog dealer who is on Mad Dog’s official list of dealers.

So with that in mind I offer the following to anyone who wishes to step up to the plate. I will be happy to test another MAD DOG ATAK in the exact same manner as the first one. All I need is another ATAK.

I have already made mention of this to Kevin Mclung and he is not willing to send one and that is fine by me. I went so far as to say he could send the knife to Earl Stewart and I would personally drive down to Orlando and redo the test “LIVE” in front of Earl. In his emails he has attacked my integrity by making several statements that I will not repeat here. He also says that I am biased in the results of the test. I have made every attempt I can think of to remedy the situation to no avail. He has not just emailed me but he CC’d emails to several people and possibly even more. If anyone has received an email from Mclung mentioning any of the above please chime in if you like.

Now that I have no clear way to remedy the situation (by retesting) I must inform you of the information I now have in regards to a test I have done as this is only fair to Kevin. That information obviously being that a maker feels that the test came to an unfair conclusion because of the questionable history behind the knife tested.

I do have serious questions when it comes to this “notch” which supposedly proves the knife is a fake.

Mclung states that he notches a blade at the bottom of the tang to show that it is a reject. My question is why would you place a notch in the most obscure part of the blade possible? I talked to several makers about this without revealing I was talking about Kevin Mclung and each said that it does not add up, to put it politely. When asked, what they do to mark defective blades, most said they make a huge file mark on the edge or they simply toss the blade into a scrap heap.

If any other makers can chime in here and help me understand this point please do.

Anyway, since he will not send me an ATAK to retest and with this new info I have decided to send the blade out for RC testing. If the knife has failed the heat treat the RC test should show it. Of course I could FAKE the RC tests so I am sending it to a University that says they will verify the results and sign an afidavit of validity. I will test the edge and other parts of the knife. I will need to remove the chrome coating most likely to do this test on other areas other than the edge or tang. Bead blasting will do this with no problems. There are no RC marks on this blade so I wonder how Mclung determines a blade has failed heat treat. There are other ways to do it and I am just curious as to how he does it.

Should the knife actually fail the RC test or otherwise be proven a fake I will remove the knife from the tests, email all the members here and apologize to Mr. Mclung. Fair?


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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
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www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!


[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 03 November 1999).]
 
Seems awfully fair to me. It must be tough to be Kevin and be subject to so many conspiracies.
 
Mike, I think I have heard you say something to the tone of, no matter how you test or how fair you try to make it somebody is gonna cry foul. No matter which madpuppy you test, if it doesnt come out just how he wants it he is gonna say you cheated. Oh well, I personally enjoyed the tests, and look forward to hearing about the hardness testing.

P.S. Mike, I bet your application to become a saint in the church of tactical truth just got tossed out the church window
smile.gif

 
This seems fair to me: as long as there's no new MD ATAK test (with a supposedly 'genuine' knife), I'll hold the previous test as genuine, whether you remove the ATAK from the test or not.

BTW, what's that whitish substance near the bottom of the tang of the ATAK?


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Reynaert

 
One of the most annoying things I see in the world of sporting goods is crappy testing. Most magazines, for instance, do not report negative testing (although some do). And I'm not just talking about knives here. I'm talking archery equipment, guns, etc. So I get ticked when I buy something that had what looks like a favorable review in a magazine, only to find that the thing is junk or has obvious major problems that were ignored by the tester because the company whose product was being tested buys mucho advertising in the magazine.

Thus...any attempt at presenting unbiased info on sporting goods is GREATLY appreciated. So Mike, just keep it coming if you can. You may or may not inject some bias into your comparisons but I think it is pretty clear that you make every attempt to present unbiased data. THANKS!

Not only that, you are bending way over backwards in being reasonable here to what sounds like an unreasonable person. You are to be commended for this. Reasonable people can come to reasonable solutions without horking up some nasty crap.

I would have just said FIDO.



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Hoodoo

Cogita tute
 
I dont know about anyone else, but I snap my defective blades in two and throw them in the garbage rather than have them take up room on my already cluttered bench........Maybe I am missing something however.

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www.simonichknives.com

[This message has been edited by Rob Simonich (edited 03 November 1999).]
 
If it looks like a dog, smells like a dog and behaves like a dog, I take it for a dog. Anybody of us could have ended up with a knife like that. In other words keep it as a valid entry for the test. I'm getting tired of hearing excuses.

Let me just summarize the statement: The blank blade underwent heat treating, was tested and found bad. Then it got the notch as sign of failure. After that it got stolen, someone finished it, hardchromed it (similar to original), put a handle on it (similar to original) made a sheath for it (similar to original I believe) and smuggled it to a licenzed dealer. Well, if you believe that, I have this bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you (quote from Dick Marcinko).

Overall double bad luck for Kevin. Not only did his knife not perform that great, now he has to deal with the issue of "fake" knives showing up at his dealers.

I wonder what his official statement is going to be.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited 03 November 1999).]
 
Hello ,


Interesting to say the least, i have my own opinions based on Factual experiance.

But i will refrain from saying so as not to be labled a MAD DOG basher anymore.

Thanks ,,Allen Blade
 
I cut my blades that I don't want to leave the shop, in half with a Cut Off wheel. Either that, or I beat the hell out of them as a test blade untill I have destroyed them to little bits. Marking a blade in the end of a tang, sounds to me like insurance against the future chance of something failing (so you can say it was faulty).

What I am curious of is how he new the knife had the notch in the tang? Did you cut the handle, and post a picture, before he screamed about the notch? Or did he recognize something else about it to know there was a notch there?

------------------
Lynn Griffith
Available knives now listed on
My website
GriffithKN@aol.com

 
One wonders if the two MD's that Cliff tested were also fake?
wink.gif



"Danger! Will Robinson! Warning! Warning! the proximity detectors have sensed a huge mass of BS floating off the starboard bow"
 
A notch in the end of the tang to designate a faulty blade.
Hmmm...
Sounds like a cop out to me.
When I get a bad blade, I trash(break) it and then I trash it.
Why would someone put a mark on an area of a faulty knife blank that cannot be readily seen if the knife is "accidentally" assembled?
That makes so little sense it makes my head hurt trying to figure out the reasoning behind the action.
Sorry MD, this tang notch thing defies logic and I, for one, am not buying it.
Unless the dog submits a "good" knife for testing, as far as I'm concerned, Mike Turber did his part in good faith and the test results should stand. JMO.

God, I hope the church of the tactical whatever doesn't declare a Jihad on me for this!
smile.gif


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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.


 
I recall a picture from last year on a forum of which I dont recall that showed the inside view of a tang of a MAD DOG knife.

It too had the secret notch.

Anyone else remember this pic???
 
Hmm, seems to me we've got enough doctors/technicians/etc. around here with access to X-Ray equipment, and enough MadDog ATAK owners, it'd be cool to get some of them together, and get non-destructive pics of the insides of ATAKs sold at different times, by different dealers, in various parts of the country.

If everyone else comes up notch-free, it would add some measure of authenticity to MD's story, though if lots of notches turn up, it would either leave MD with some explaining to do, or be final concrete evidence of a GIANT CONSPIRACY -- black helicopters, JFK, Roswell, Cigarette Smoking Man, Little Green Men completing ATAKs while MD experiences missing time, and all that.

Anyone checked MD for small metal objects implanted in the back of his neck lately?

Half curious, half in jest -- your mission: figure out which part is which
smile.gif


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Carl /\/\/\ AKTI #A000921

Think this through with me ... Let me know your mind
Wo-oah, what I want to know ... is are you kind?
-- Hunter/Garcia, "Uncle John's Band"
 
Oy, controversy.

I've got a clue that I will give away to any needy soul who didn't know the Busse was going to come out on top of this test weeks ago.

But forget about all that. I don't even care if the ATAK is not a second. I accept the test results utterly at face value, without qualification. I am sure the test were done objectively, and the results reported accurately. I will, however continue to base my own judgement on what I consider to be more useful information. What I can't figure out is why Kevin even bothered to protest, if such was the nature of his message to Mike.

One thing to think about, especially for the knife makers who have already waded in: if a handmade, selectively tempered tool steel knife comes out not only behind a production Busse(I mean INFI may really be something extraordinary for all I know), but behind a mass produced Cold Steel knife, either there was something skewed with the test or there are a few thousand knife makers who should sell their grinders, turn their forges into barbeques, and learn another trade. I'm not saying which is the case, just something to think about.

 
Now here is a post I'm bound to regret but...

I can see where he might be a little suspicious about the tests. Now Mike, I don’t mean to infer anything bad about you. In my dealings with you, you have shown the best character. I only want to point out that, for discussion purposes only, I believe the tests where run while a Busse was on sale to support the forums. It is my opinion that this could create the illusion of a conflict of interest. My opinion is that you conducted the tests with objectivity, but to someone unfamiliar with your work, or you, this could be a stumbling point. Perhaps I misunderstood some extenuating circumstances, but it looks like a favorable review might stimulate sales of the “knife of the month” thus reducing somewhat the amount in the red the forums run at. I will say it again: I don’t believe this to be the case. All I am trying to say is an outsider might come to this conclusion. I don’t know anything about knifemaking so the notch is beyond me.

Well, that should stir things up.

"The modern artist must live by craft and violence. His gods are violent gods . . . Those artists, so called, whose work does not show this strife, are uninteresting."
Ezra Pound


[This message has been edited by Pleconin (edited 03 November 1999).]
 
Kevin is pushing your button again Mike.

Sometimes things are done for effect. To stir the pot - as it were!

Just my take on this after watching things for a couple of years.
 
I understand all the concern about my objectivity during the test. Only those who know me personally can attest to that factor about my character. You can even ask my wife one of the first things I ever told her. I told her to never ask me a question that she did not want to here the truth about. Like do you think I am prettier than her or something along those lines.

I will tell the truth regardless but that does not matter to those who do not know me. I won't devuldge government secrets though, well maybe the donut rings over the SW desert
smile.gif


I had a conversation with Lynn Thompson and Jerry Busse back at the Shot Show. I told both I had full intentions of testing the Trailmaster and the Busse #9 in a head to head contest and that the results WILL be made public regardless of who wins! I still plan to do that test and soon.

Funny how the only knife in my current test were the results are questioned is Mad Dog. Why is this? Is it the cultish type following he has? I personally don't care either way as I have full intentions of testing another ATAK in the future. This time it will be in a head to head competition with a Mission knife. I guess according to the above I will go ahead and declare the Mission the winner
smile.gif


But to make things fun I will test the knife "LIVE" at the Blade Show! Or I may be able to hook up a "LIVE" internet feed and I can broadcast the test to the world! Of course it makes no difference as I will probably get problems with that test too but I am willing to do both.

Carl's X-Ray idea is cool
wink.gif


Dr. Welch may have access to X-Ray equipment and even though he is a Mad Dog fan I would surely trust his X-Rays!



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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
 
Mike; I had heard rumors about this, but have not been contacted by Mad Dog concerning this subject.

I have a number of Mad Dogs. I may be able to get them x-rayed. If I can, I will. I will send you all the results.

I have two or three ATAKS, but they are all of the serrated variety. Since you tested just one portion of the blade at a time, however, perhaps these will still be useful. Let me know if you want me to send you one or more.

If the test knife was indeed a faulty one, I think that some effort should be made to address this problem with the testing.

Walt
 
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