Usa motivation!

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dogstar said:
Wow, that is quite a statement to make about a civilization that has been around for over 4000 years. I'm all for American made products and American workers, but let's not go overboard here.
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Sorry, maybe I should have been more specific. When it comes to today's folding pocket knives...see above. :)

Have you been to see any China folding pocket cutlery production recently?
 
Thomas W said:
Let's not fool ourselves that there is going to be anything other than really entry level coming from overseas.
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I respectfully disagree. The Spyderco team in Taichung is capable of some the best fit & finish I've seen yet in terms of production knives...
 
timberweasel said:
I respectfully disagree. The Spyderco team in Taichung is capable of some the best fit & finish I've seen yet in terms of production knives...
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I respectfully disagree. While the products can be solid, they are no where near premium or high end. How about their steels, HT...any real performance? How is the product gonna stand the test of time? Again, these products are price point, margin driving items, why else produce them?

Spyderco team in China? Enlighten me.
 
Taichung is in Taiwan, not the mainland PRC. And yeah, I'd say there's some real performance coming out of there. The S30V Sage series and the M4/Twill Carbon Fiber Gayle Bradley are just two of the models made there.
 
Thomas W said:
I respectfully disagree. While the products can be solid, they are no where near premium or high end. How about their steels, HT...any real performance? How is the product gonna stand the test of time? Again, these products are price point, margin driving items, why else produce them?

Spyderco team in China? Enlighten me.
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Gotta disagree with all of this. The ones specifically coming from the Taichung manufacturer are at least as good as any knife I have made in the USA even at twice their price, including Spyderco's models made in Golden. That includes both f&f quality and consistency of that quality. There have been more complaints about the 056x's than the Gayle Bradley, for instance, though the latter has been on the market quite awhile longer. And talking steels, the CPM-M4 of the GB is equivalent to the CPm-M4 of my Ti/G10 Military in my experience, and I've used both exhaustively. Also, Phil Wilson's South Fork from Spyderco is coming out in S90v, again out of the Taichung maker. Given that Mr. Wilson okay'd the proto from the maker, there's little doubt it's of good quality; few people who would know better than him. We can't know if that quality will be consistent until it comes out, but there haven't been complaints about any other steels coming out of Taichung that I've seen.
 
dogstar said:
Wow, that is quite a statement to make about a civilization that has been around for over 4000 years. I'm all for American made products and American workers, but let's not go overboard here.
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Men have existed for thousands of years and they didn't go to the moon, have color TV, Kershaw ZT0561s, and thousands of other amenities which have only existed in my lifetime son. It is what it is. China is in the midst of it's industrial revolution!
 
Thomas W said:
I respectfully disagree. While the products can be solid, they are no where near premium or high end. How about their steels, HT...any real performance? How is the product gonna stand the test of time? Again, these products are price point, margin driving items, why else produce them?

Spyderco team in China? Enlighten me.
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While I agree that past Chinese offerings have been low-end I think that will change in the upcoming years. Right now they are working on dominating the lowend market because thats what China is experienced at but they are definitely capable of producing products just as good as US products, at a much lower price.

For those of you that don't think so....think of it like this. If someone gave you the job of making the best knife you could, with millions of dollars in equipment/machinery/materials, availability of learning resources, very inexpensive labor source, etc do you think you could come up with decent knives? I know I could, and so can foreign markets when they put their mind to it. Heck, many hobbyists can spend a few thousand dollars and a few years tinkering on the forums and produce some beautiful, well functioning designs.

I think the main thing preventing this from occurring is the current mindset of much of Chinese manufacturing...which is "why develop our own products/reputation when we can just copy proven designs/company names".

I think most of us would agree that the quality of knives coming from China has really improved in the last few years...and its my bet they will continue to improve.
 
Thomas W said:
What country is this manufacturer in?
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Taiwan. I wasn't replying to your last statement. I was replying to your first paragraph, which is in response to a statement about the Taichung manufacturer.
 
I think Thomas was just referring to China when he said that only entry level knives will come from overseas. Japan is overseas, too, and I don't think anyone would dispute that they make some great knives. That being said, I would have thought the same thing about Taiwan until the Taichung factory started producing knives for Spyderco. The fit an finish is superb on those, just disassemble and reassemble one to see. It's perfectly possible that China might advance like Taiwan did someday, even if it looks unlikely now.
 
kreole said:
Taiwan. I wasn't replying to your last statement. I was replying to your first paragraph, which is in response to a statement about the Taichung manufacturer.
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Yea I see that now. Unfortunately this thread wasn't about manufacturing in Taiwan.
 
ecos said:
While I agree that past Chinese offerings have been low-end I think that will change in the upcoming years. Right now they are working on dominating the lowend market because thats what China is experienced at but they are definitely capable of producing products just as good as US products, at a much lower price.

For those of you that don't think so....think of it like this. If someone gave you the job of making the best knife you could, with millions of dollars in equipment/machinery/materials, availability of learning resources, very inexpensive labor source, etc do you think you could come up with decent knives? I know I could, and so can foreign markets when they put their mind to it. Heck, many hobbyists can spend a few thousand dollars and a few years tinkering on the forums and produce some beautiful, well functioning designs.

I think the main thing preventing this from occurring is the current mindset of much of Chinese manufacturing...which is "why develop our own products/reputation when we can just copy proven designs/company names".

I think most of us would agree that the quality of knives coming from China has really improved in the last few years...and its my bet they will continue to improve.
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It could change, but there are still shortcomings with premium steels and in other areas. It will be interesting to see how we all adapt to the rising prices from China. Will the consumer accept premium pocket knives from China.
 
kreole said:
There have been more complaints about the 056x's than the Gayle Bradley, for instance, though the latter has been on the market quite awhile longer.
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Yes we have much less problems with standard liner locks vs. 3-D machined Ti fame locks as well. Kinda different animals. Perhaps we need to keep a bit of perspective when making comments like the above.
 
Thomas W said:
It could change, but there are still shortcomings with premium steels and in other areas. It will be interesting to see how we all adapt to the rising prices from China. Will the consumer accept premium pocket knives from China.
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I'm also curious to see the outcome. A few years back I wouldn't think consumers would accept premium knives from China but now I'm not so sure what the future holds. Things have changed quite a bit in the 20yrs I've been making knives, and especially in the last few years.

"Custom" knives have been getting more "production", and production knives have been getting more custom. It used to be that most makers would try to do as many steps by hand as they could, now things are moving to grinding jigs, laser/waterjet cutting, cnc milling, etc etc. On up to complete outsourcing. With the explanation being "its the final product that matters". Well I'm not going to argue that point(thats a different discussion), but if they are right and its the final product that matters, and not how it is produced, then perhaps premium knives from China will sell.

Personally I don't care where a product is made as much as who is making it. By that I mean there are good guys, and jerks across the globe. Companies that treat their employees, and customers well, will get more of my money. For that reason I try to avoid purchases from China since I don't agree with their business practices...but of course its nearly impossible to avoid them all together.
 
dogstar, Thomas W is not talking about "civilization". He is an expert in modern knife production. For 4000 years not even China had S30V. :)
 
Thomas W said:
I respectfully disagree. While the products can be solid, they are no where near premium or high end. How about their steels, HT...any real performance? How is the product gonna stand the test of time? Again, these products are price point, margin driving items, why else produce them?

Spyderco team in China? Enlighten me.
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Sorry, Thomas. You were speaking of China and I focused on the 'overseas' bit... Taichung is indeed Taiwan, not the PRC, and the models I refer to use steel imported from elsewhere (mostly from the US and Japan.)

I'm not doing very well on this thread, I'm afraid, so I'm just going to back away... :o
 
All of my knives are American made. I won't buy any foreign knives. I've been fortunate to find companies who offered what I was looking for and were American made to boot. It is hard to find American made goods these days...but if I know that I can buy American made goods and may have to take a drive across town to get them...then I will. Spend it on goods made where you make it...
 
365KV said:
All of my knives are American made. I won't buy any foreign knives. I've been fortunate to find companies who offered what I was looking for and were American made to boot. It is hard to find American made goods these days...but if I know that I can buy American made goods and may have to take a drive across town to get them...then I will. Spend it on goods made where you make it...
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With USA folding knives there are options if the ELU is willing to spend premium money. The forum here is full of enthusiasts that think nothing of spending top dollar on their pocket pals. The general public would find this somewhat outrageous (well until they got the bug :)). Outside of the enthusiast and their specialty manufacturers, there are few options with value USA folders for the common man/woman. Kershaw and Buck are really the only two manufacturers here in the US that can supply the big box chains (volume). There is a reason for that. It's all imports for the sheeple to choose from in their everyday outside of Kershaw/Buck.

Does Country of Origin with knives make a difference? Less and less everyday IMO.
 
AG Russell already offers Chinese made knives that are well above entry level.

There is no shortage of US made knives. Market forces have, however, made Chinese manufacture of mass produced low end knives much more competitive in price and quality. Realistically, there is no reason to even think otherwise. Not only are knives among the most primitive tools still in use, modern manufacturing techniques specifically reduce the demand for specialized, skilled, expensive craftspeople. This means that quality products are no longer limited to the patch of dirt the factory sits on. If it ever really was.

The reality of the American knife market is that for many knife consumers, the decision is to buy knives is to a large degree a declaration of identity in both culture and nationalism. For the OP, knives are symbols of patriotism, manhood, and traditionalism. Buck's much publicized move to "onshoring" specifically takes advantage of this sentiment among knife nuts.
 
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