Vertical blade play on sebenza? - Update

[sh00ter01]

...I've said it before, but it is going to take more than a couple pictureless posts on the internet to go up against 25 years of running a business known (and awarded for) manufacturing excellence and great customer service.

Come on, really? 'Pictureless post', the problem seems quite clear, not sure what pictures would show that text hasn't already explained. Next you'll want notarized copies of their work orders in order to believe them

Seriously, even the greats, can make mistakes. What keeps them 'great' is how they handle the 'mistakes', and so far it isn't looking good.

-sh00ter

 

[wolf5391]

Thanks.
This thread's really got me thinking! I mean, if i can't trust a Sebenza to be "perfect" (without the play factor) what can i trust?
I have also a small Insingo that's pretty much perfect but the other two are worrying me a bit
The problem is that i'm not from the US so taking the risk of sending the knives in and then being accused that i was to be blamed on the knife's issue may very well not be worth it!
Getting worriiiiied...

Yah thats an lot of shipping money to not have the issue be fixed. Im thinking of just saying screw it and carbidizing the lock face It would void the warranty but at least I would have rock solid funtioning knife. Idk its something to look into.

 

[TheModernNeanderthal]

Yah thats an lot of shipping money to not have the issue be fixed. Im thinking of just saying screw it and carbidizing the lock face It would void the warranty but at least I would have rock solid funtioning knife. Idk its something to look into.

At this point what good is the warranty?

 

[slimshaneee]

I imagine the frustration at dealing with these knives you are unhappy with and I feel bad for all the involved parties.

That being said. I am sure after looking at lockbars for 25 years you could call yourself a master of lockbars. Lock mating surfaces et cetra. None of us have near the experience they do.

I would believe a manufacturer like Chris Reeve knows his locks. Could he make a mistake, yes. Is it likely, no. Especially from someone with a history for quality. Quality does not just come from a good machine, good materials, or a tight tolerance. Consistent quality like that comes from caring, and paying close attention to all the details all the time. From employing people you can trust to follow your vision.

After this many years, it would be unlikely a manufacturing defect comes up that CRK hasn't seen before, and learned to prevent. He seems to be a man of high integrity, and a low tolerance for some things. Flicking is certainly one of them.

I hate to use car analogies but they are easy. Imagine you are a tire guy. You've been in business 25 years. You know tires only wear out super fast from drag racing and taking corners way too fast.
Imagine the customers that are sure to surface that push the limits of your warranty. You know how long they last with proper driving. You know when they wear out too early they have been abused. Could there have been a bad batch of rubber after all of these years? Yes, but it would be hard for that tire man to believe.

Genuinely I feel for all sides in this matter.

 

[mantzao]

Yah thats an lot of shipping money to not have the issue be fixed. Im thinking of just saying screw it and carbidizing the lock face It would void the warranty but at least I would have rock solid funtioning knife. Idk its something to look into.

I think you should do just that but that won't work in my case would it?
The large regular has great lockup, no play at all, but it doens't have a smooth action and if tightened all the way i can't even open it!
On the other hand, the small 21 has a very smooth action but that tiny bit of side to side play
I think i would be better served buying an all damascus Mcusta Take!
Just kidding but great looking knife though

 

[slimshaneee]

So I am saying it could be an issue on CRK end, just unlikely, and it would make it hard for CRK to believe. Maybe the surfaces could be tested.

It could even be a dealer gave it a couple of good wrist flicks or something who knows...

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

So I am saying it could be an issue on CRK end, just unlikely, and it would make it hard for CRK to believe. Maybe the surfaces could be tested.

It could even be a dealer gave it a couple of good wrist flicks or something who knows...

So if the problem isn't on CRK's end, then the complainants (including me) in this thread are liars? Chris himself has told us that the problem is due to flicking (even on my 4 day old knife) when we haven't flicked them. Sure, he could be a master of lock bars, but he is not clairvoyant. If a customer says they didn't flick the knife, who the hell is he to say otherwise?

 

[Tripton]

I would like to add that 25 years of running an award winning business does not make any one person or organization exempt from problems, or bad practices.

It isn't like these posts are rare now days. They seem to be getting more frequent. In just this one thread we had 3 different people with the same problem. Are we really going to just look over that fact because CRK has won awards for 25 years?

Of course it doesn't. However, these kind of posts tend to flare up the same people time and time again, rehashing previous issues that had already been discussed, and lending to an artificially high number of quality problems.

Come on, really? 'Pictureless post', the problem seems quite clear, not sure what pictures would show that text hasn't already explained. Next you'll want notarized copies of their work orders in order to believe them

Seriously, even the greats, can make mistakes. What keeps them 'great' is how they handle the 'mistakes', and so far it isn't looking good.

-sh00ter

What exactly is clear about it? Is there something about the lockbars that is causing the "issue"? Do all of the knives have the same "issue"? Why can't anyone capture this elusive problem?


Everyone bitches about spending $400 on a knife, then complains about the cost of maintaining it. If indeed it hasnt been abused, well then that is an issue. I still lend more credence to the reputation of CRK vs. a bunch of people bitching about something on the internet.

 

[TheModernNeanderthal]

I imagine the frustration at dealing with these knives you are unhappy with and I feel bad for all the involved parties.

That being said. I am sure after looking at lockbars for 25 years you could call yourself a master of lockbars. Lock mating surfaces et cetra. None of us have near the experience they do.

I would believe a manufacturer like Chris Reeve knows his locks. Could he make a mistake, yes. Is it likely, no. Especially from someone with a history for quality. Quality does not just come from a good machine, good materials, or a tight tolerance. Consistent quality like that comes from caring, and paying close attention to all the details all the time. From employing people you can trust to follow your vision.

After this many years, it would be unlikely a manufacturing defect comes up that CRK hasn't seen before, and learned to prevent. He seems to be a man of high integrity, and a low tolerance for some things. Flicking is certainly one of them.

I hate to use car analogies but they are easy. Imagine you are a tire guy. You've been in business 25 years. You know tires only wear out super fast from drag racing and taking corners way too fast.
Imagine the customers that are sure to surface that push the limits of your warranty. You know how long they last with proper driving. You know when they wear out too early they have been abused. Could there have been a bad batch of rubber after all of these years? Yes, but it would be hard for that tire man to believe.

Genuinely I feel for all sides in this matter.

I would probably feel better if I was given a solution. If I have to pay a little money to have it done, so be it. But, I was told that there is no way to fix the blade play.

I asked about replacing the blade and lock bar. I was told replacing the blade was not possible as they are custom fit and that replacing the lock bar slab would cost $150 and might not fix the issue.

How am I to take that?

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Of course it doesn't. However, these kind of posts tend to flare up the same people time and time again, rehashing previous issues that had already been discussed, and lending to an artificially high number of quality problems.

Understandable. I seem to be the only one rehashing an old issue. I think the other 3 are genuine new issues, could be wrong though. It's happened once before. Haha

 

[kaosu04]

Wow. This thread has absolutely blown up. Been a chore to keep up with all the posts. I'm really not trying convey any negative opinions here. As I said in a previous post, I was happy with the service and the knife. This changed when I discovered I could quite easily compromise the lock using two hands and cause it to fail. Does it mean I'm not happy with the service? This is hard to judge, as again, the knife is used. As a summary I'll just state the facts and let everyone else base their opinions.

This sebenza was born in 2009. I got it used. It was in good condition and obviously had a fresh refurbish job done on it. When I first got the knife it was perfect. In fact I've had the knife for about 2 years and have never had any complaints. 2 things I absolutely know is that I tested it in the first few months I had it and it had absolutely no blade play whatsoever. It had around a 75% lockup and that lockup did not change until I got it back last week. I personally have never, on any occasion flicked open this sebenza. I've taken good care of it and have thoroughly enjoyed carrying it. It is also very lightly used. A few boxes and letters once in a while, never any serious use. I call CRK and ask if vertical blade play will be fixed under warranty. They tell me yes and to send it in. I get the knife back and it has a full refurbish to include a re heat treated locking surface. Looks great. Vertical blade play is the same. While inspecting the knife and feeling the blade play I realize pushing the blade towards the locking bar causes the lock to slowly disengage. This is applying (obviously I didnt measure) around 40 pounds of force. This happens until the locking bar completely disengages.

Theres a lot of harsh words going around and I really don't care. If no one believes me I certainly don't care. I have no opinion on the other instances and can only comment on my own experience. That I bought a knife with an unknown history that may or may not have included gross abuse and/or negligence. I bought a used knife with an unknown history from a maker that has a warranty that clearly states two relative issues to this situation. Guaranteed for life to the original owner and does not include abuse.

I'm not too sure what to do at this point as I no longer have any time to send it in. Perhaps I will call tomorrow and get the knife sent to me overseas if/when it gets fixed. I have a small sebenza I bought brand new and will take this one with me.

 

[slimshaneee]

So if the problem isn't on CRK's end, then the complainants (including me) in this thread are liars? Chris himself has told us that the problem is due to flicking (even on my 4 day old knife) when we haven't flicked them. Sure, he could be a master of lock bars, but he is not clairvoyant. If a customer says they didn't flick the knife, who the hell is he to say otherwise?

You quoted me. In the quote you took, I said a dealer could have done it.

I am not trying to fight with anyone, I am only trying to increase understanding by both sides as this isn't good for anyone. I like my bladeforums people which includes you, this is the best place I have to hang out with fellow knife nuts. I also like CRK and respect their knives and what they have achieved. So I hate to see something like this going on. Dirtying up the bladeforums, and creating doubt about a great knife maker and if their guarantee isn't any good because of 4 unhappy customers out of how many Sebenzas?

I haven't seen any of the knives. I really have no true knowledge of the situation. I did not see you opening your knife. I did not see the knife. I did not hear what Chris said.
I am only saying, put yourself in his shoes. All of the knives he has made and seen. Experience is what tells him clearly, if it is messed up, it was more than likely abused. That is fair, isn't it?

To Neverdie36, have you sent your knife in yet? If you send it in pay the $150 and it comes back bad, then you have an issue. Take a picture or make a video and post it if that happens.

 

[snowreaper1]

I'm pretty sure any knife thats sent into CRK for warranty work is closely examined and inspected all areas of the knife. Theres probably tell tale signs of abuse that CRK looks for
such as the blade stop or lock face being damaged that wouldn't result unless the blade was repeatedly opened hard or used hard. I would think for CRK to decide to not warranty the knife it would
take obvious and clear evidence of this. I would think CRK stands behind their product and would want to help every owner who sends their knife in. Theres no logical reason why they wouldn't.

I'll just note my experience dealing with CRK customer service. About a year ago I bought a used Micarta Sebenza off the exchange. When I received it I noticed it was horribly taken care of. The action was so gritty that it was hard to move the blade and it locked up so early it would disengage easily if the spine was bumped. I decided I would just send it in for warranty work noting that I just bought this off a member on Bladeforums and hoped they could still work on it.
Well they did fix it and also ended up refurbishing the knife for no charge which was a great surprise. I pretty much had a brand new looking Classic Micarta Sebenza that functioned wonderfully. And Im sure there are countless stories of other CRK customers who experienced the same thing. But I understand theres always going to be a couple exception to the rule every once in a while. But that in no way should tarnish the great reputation CRK has earned over the many years they have been in business.

 

[TheModernNeanderthal]

To Neverdie36, have you sent your knife in yet? If you send it in pay the $150 and it comes back bad, then you have an issue. Take a picture or make a video and post it if that happens.

It is on it's way back. I did not want to pay for the lock bar face since they said it wasn't guaranteed to fix the issue. If I pay for it and there is still play, then what? Do they replace it? Do I have to keep buying them till one works?

All I want is my knife in working order. I would pay if I was guaranteed it would fix the issue. Once the knife gets back, I will give it a once over, maybe do a vid, if the issue is still there I will call and see if I can find a solution. The impression I got from my previous phone call is they would not give me such a promise.

 

[snowreaper1]

I don't know if anyone remembers this thread but it was about a member whos knife was considered abused by CRK. You can read their response about a little over half way down the page and how they came up with the conclusion that it was in fact abused.
And I just want to add I have no idea the condition of the member knives in the thread and I'm not saying you guys are wrong in any way. And I do hope you can work out something with CRK and give them a chance to make it right.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/682634-CRK-Sebenza-Problem/page4

 

[wolf5391]

for those of you who are skeptics and need pictures for proof.

Oh and the stop pin has absolutely not marks on it. I believe the stop pin would have marks if flicked /abused since thats the first part in intial impact.

 

[wolf5391]

Also, I just checked out the link provided by snowreaper1 and that knife is clearly abused.

The only similarity to mine is the lock face.

I would understand where Chris is coming from with that one but with mine it wasnt abused at all.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

You quoted me. In the quote you took, I said a dealer could have done it.

I am not trying to fight with anyone, I am only trying to increase understanding by both sides as this isn't good for anyone. I like my bladeforums people which includes you, this is the best place I have to hang out with fellow knife nuts. I also like CRK and respect their knives and what they have achieved. So I hate to see something like this going on. Dirtying up the bladeforums, and creating doubt about a great knife maker and if their guarantee isn't any good because of 4 unhappy customers out of how many Sebenzas?

I haven't seen any of the knives. I really have no true knowledge of the situation. I did not see you opening your knife. I did not see the knife. I did not hear what Chris said.
I am only saying, put yourself in his shoes. All of the knives he has made and seen. Experience is what tells him clearly, if it is messed up, it was more than likely abused. That is fair, isn't it?

To Neverdie36, have you sent your knife in yet? If you send it in pay the $150 and it comes back bad, then you have an issue. Take a picture or make a video and post it if that happens.

Oops, I didn't see that part!

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I don't know if anyone remembers this thread but it was about a member whos knife was considered abused by CRK. You can read their response about a little over half way down the page and how they came up with the conclusion that it was in fact abused.
And I just want to add I have no idea the condition of the member knives in the thread and I'm not saying you guys are wrong in any way. And I do hope you can work out something with CRK and give them a chance to make it right.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/682634-CRK-Sebenza-Problem/page4

Wait, so Chris sees wear lines on the pivot bushing as evidence of abuse? ANY Sebenza that has been opened a number of times has those lines..... Also, the stop pin doesn't appear to be peened at all. His arrow points to a shadow. Also, the wear lines on the washers are a sign of abuse? Really? Open your knife, just a few times, it too will have those lines.

The others, I agree with.



I'm just saying, I just cleaned by new Large 21 (less than a month old) and it has 3 of the supposed "abuse indications" when I have barely used it.

 

[wolf5391]

Wait, so Chris sees wear lines on the pivot bushing as evidence of abuse? ANY Sebenza that has been opened a number of times has those lines..... Also, the stop pin doesn't appear to be peened at all. His arrow points to a shadow. Also, the wear lines on the washers are a sign of abuse? Really? Open your knife, just a few times, it too will have those lines.

The others, I agree with.



I'm just saying, I just cleaned by new Large 21 (less than a month old) and it has 3 of the supposed "abuse indications" when I have barely used it.

well you my friend just voided your warranty by slightly using your knife

no but seriously if your lock bar got messed up in the future he'd (Chris) probably pull this bs with you too.