Vertical blade play on sebenza? - Update

I can tell you what happened when I told them that.


Let me set the scene for you: I recieved my first ever sebenza, a Large Micarta 21. Less than 3 days after receiving it I noticed it had late lockup as well as a little rock. I got a call from Chris himself where he rudely explained to be that the late lockup had to have been caused by me, from flicking. I tried to explain to him that I had the knife less than a week, but he wasn't having it. He pretty much did everything but call me a liar outright, and was just generally rude as hell.

I never sent the knife in, I just dealt with it. I vowed to never use their CS. If I have a problem, I'll just sell the knife.

I had a similar problem. I bought one brand new that came nearly impossible to open, even with two hands. Cleaning, reassembling, etc., didn't change it. During that process I noticed the lock bar was dented. I posted on the forum about it and ended up talking to CR. He refused to believe it was anything else than the result of 20,000 openings or more or excessive flicking. Keep in mind it showed up in the first few days and I spoke with him on the phone just 3 weeks after receiving it, so nothing close to that is possible (it could not have been opened 100 times), and as I said, it was hard to open with two hands so extreme flicking is out of the question. It's all here in the thread I originally posted to ask about it http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/790605-Is-it-normal-for-a-lockbar-to-dent-like-this

In his defense, despite what he believed, he said I could send it in and they would work on it. It left a bad enough taste in my mouth I put it in the box and only a few weeks ago carried it again. It is good to be an expert but not so much your mind gets closed off to other possibilities.
 
Wait, so Chris sees wear lines on the pivot bushing as evidence of abuse? ANY Sebenza that has been opened a number of times has those lines..... Also, the stop pin doesn't appear to be peened at all. His arrow points to a shadow. Also, the wear lines on the washers are a sign of abuse? Really? Open your knife, just a few times, it too will have those lines.

The others, I agree with.

I'm just saying, I just cleaned by new Large 21 (less than a month old) and it has 3 of the supposed "abuse indications" when I have barely used it.




The dings on the perimeter of the washers indicate abuse. In some spots it looks like its folded over.
And the wear lines especially on the small washer look to be more pronounced than any or my Sebenzas even
ones over 5 years old.

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And the in this pic you can see the hardened lock face has been gouged at the spot where it locks up which
could be from repeated hard openings or batoning, chopping, hard use.

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And as for the pivot and back stop my eyes are not trained or experienced enough to pick up the abuse
signs in this pic. But Mr. Reeve seems to see definite signs.

attachment.php
 
I'm honestly not trying to argue, just trying to understand...


The washers show clear damage. I'm trying to figure out how the washers would be damaged in that fashion while using the knife. It seems to me like damage such as that would have to occur while the washers were out of the knife.

As far as the lock, I've seen MANY pictures on here of concerned customers with locks that look exactly like that and Chris says that as long as there is no lock movement it's not a problem.......

As far as the stop pin and pivot bushing, those arrows point to shadows and reflections. It's a round object, so any evidence of peening or damage would be clearly evident.


I'm sure Chris has come across a few sure enough abused knives, but come on - not everyone is beating the hell out of these things. It seems his first (knee jerk) response is to blame the customer for abusing the knife (even if the customer explains that the knife is new), and that's not cool.

There have been too many people coming forth with the same story; Chris blames them for the damage to the knife (again, even if it's new!), and then explaining that they might not even be able to fix it. Are we really going to just ignore that?

The dings on the perimeter of the washers indicate abuse. In some spots it looks like its folded over.
And the wear lines especially on the small washer look to be more pronounced than any or my Sebenzas even
ones over 5 years old.

attachment.php


And the in this pic you can see the hardened lock face has been gouged at the spot where it locks up which
could be from repeated hard openings or batoning, chopping, hard use.

attachment.php


And as for the pivot and back stop my eyes are not trained or experienced enough to pick up the abuse
signs in this pic. But Mr. Reeve seems to see definite signs.

attachment.php
 
I would agree that Mr. Reeve is not the best when it comes to dealing with his customers especially when dealing with criticism of his knives.
The "customer is always right" doesn't seem like a motto he lives by :)

In your case though all interaction was over the phone, right? And he didn't even examine your knife in person but made a conclusion based on the info you gave him.
That I think was a mistake and I would also be offended. But cases where the knife is in the shop and there is evidence to suggest misuse....thats when CRK has to make a judgment
call. The damage doesn't just appear out of nowhere. I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is or if there is even a problem. I guess time will tell.
 
I would agree that Mr. Reeve is not the best when it comes to dealing with his customers especially when dealing with criticism of his knives.
The "customer is always right" doesn't seem like a motto he lives by :)

In your case though all interaction was over the phone, right? And he didn't even examine your knife in person but made a conclusion based on the info you gave him.
That I think was a mistake and I would also be offended. But cases where the knife is in the shop and there is evidence to suggest misuse....thats when CRK has to make a judgment
call. The damage doesn't just appear out of nowhere. I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is or if there is even a problem. I guess time will tell.


Yeah that's pretty much how it went. I don't even care about the experience I had with him. Some people just don't get along with other people, in my case I guess me and Chris just aren't soul mates. Haha. I still buy and love his knives, and still would even if he sent me hate mail. :D

But, stuff like this just irritates me. Anyway, I've said my piece more than a few times in this thread so I think I am going to be an observer from here on out. I hope you guys get your knives sorted out in a satisfactory way. :thumbup:
 
Those pictures show so much but yet so little. The wahsers can not be damaged like that during use. Those dings and nicks simply must have happened when the knife was being put back together, carelessly by the looks of it. They seem to have been put on the wrong sides at least once or twice. As for the wear lines on the washers, even trying to sight that as some sort of abuse is laughable at best. I don't even know what to say about that, they are called "wear lines" for a reason.
The lock bar is not hardned, it has a hard oxide layer over it, the Ti underneath is unchanged. The actual hardening of Ti can be a very complicated process and is only possible on particlar Ti alloys. That oxide layer can be broken through and playing silly lock strength games or slamming the knife open will be causes of that oxide shell being broken through. That could also happen over time or in some other quite innocent and natural way as well though.
The pivot bushing and stop pin will only show wear on particular surfaces or areas. The bushing will have wear marks from the blade and pivot traveling over the surfaces. That is exactly what it is there for and I don't see how one can sight any of that as damage from abuse, it is again totally natural wear and what one would expect to see. The stop pin will show wear from the point of contact with the blade tang, rotating the stop pin sleeve will of course present a new surface but the original point of cantact will of course still be visable if deformed in any way.

The allegedly excessive wear marks could be caused by lubricants, lack of lubricants, foreign items getting into the working of the knife etc. I don't see how "abuse through use" will lend to that, lack of care and attention, yes, but that can't be classed as abuse I don't think. The lock face and stop pin sleeve show there has been some amount of monkey business going on somewhere but that is where it stops IMO. Pictures are never that great when trying to assess wear or damage so it's possible CRK were seeing things we are not in those pics.
 
Yeah that's pretty much how it went. I don't even care about the experience I had with him. Some people just don't get along with other people, in my case I guess me and Chris just aren't soul mates. Haha. I still buy and love his knives, and still would even if he sent me hate mail. :D

But, stuff like this just irritates me. Anyway, I've said my piece more than a few times in this thread so I think I am going to be an observer from here on out. I hope you guys get your knives sorted out in a satisfactory way. :thumbup:

I am really impressed with your ability to handle it this way. I understand how infuriating it is to be called a liar when you are an honest person. That hurts down to the bone, and CRK could be a little more careful with throwing that one around.

It does seem reasonable to make no judgements over the phone. At least see the knife before you decide, it would save a lot of frustration I think.

I guess I feel for CRK in this one because I imagine we are similar. I am bad at taking criticism. I tend to get really, really irritated, blow up and handle myself poorly. I think it is my dislike of criticism that makes me try so hard to live my life and do work that will not have problems or be criticized.
I try hard to do things the right way, and to be sure I have done them the right way. So down the road I know deep down, that if there is a problem, I can be reasonably sure it wasn't something I did.

.........Long boring story alert!
For example I am an electrician. For over seven years. Every single one of the connections I have made I believe will not fail. I took the time to learn it right, and I take it seriously and make the best connection I can every single time. Over and over and over. I don't think I am arrogant, I think I am sure in my work. (though I guess that might be arrogance ) :p

When it comes time to troubleshoot every now and then, I can be reasonably sure it is either a defective plug, switch, or light fixture, or that someone else has damaged one of the wires I have installed. I draw that mentality from the fact that I have wired hundreds of houses, made thousands and thousands of connections. When it comes time to turn on the house I know it is going to come on and work right. Unless there is a bad plug, switch, or light fixture.

When I first started working with my new employer, he was really impressed after the first 3 or 4 houses we did together powered up properly the first time (powered up = the first time you turn on the power in a newly built house and test all the plugs and lights). He really made a kind of big deal about it. I did not understand it, because I believe that is how every house, done by every crew should work. I take my work seriously because loose connections, damaged wires, can cause fires and hurt people. If we need to repair our work, it often involves climbing in attics (which stinks), damaging paint and drywall, and irritated builders or homeowners.

I truly believe that it is more likely that a wire has a bad spot in the middle of it, than for a problem to be caused by a connection I am making. It takes a lot of effort in doing things right to have that sureness in my work. I work that way because I can't stand to make mistakes. It took years of not having problems for me to feel that way about my work.

If someone from another crew told me that I had made a poor connection, I would not believe it. I have only had one connection fail, when I was first starting out. From over tightening I broke a wire off inside the wire nut where it can not be seen. I had twisted that wire nut so many times that it stretched and broke the solid copper wire, even that connection did not go bad from a lack of trying :D . I can still remember it. I can remember my boss showing me it, explaining why it happened. I can remember the room, and even the location of the recess can in the room. And I usually can't even remember what I had for lunch the day before :D
 
Just as an update for my situation, my large 21 came in today. It still has the same late lockup and blade play as when I sent it out.

Now, I was thinking about the situation and how to go about getting it in order. I decided to try and fix it myself. What I tried has been mentioned before but I didn't think it would work on a Sebenza (tolerances too high).

What I did: I loosened all the handle screws and pivot screw just a bit. Then, pushing up on the locking side and down on the non-lock side, I retightened everything down. This took the lockup from 90% to just around 70% and the lockup is now just as solid as my other large Sebenza.
 
Just as an update for my situation, my large 21 came in today. It still has the same late lockup and blade play as when I sent it out.

Now, I was thinking about the situation and how to go about getting it in order. I decided to try and fix it myself. What I tried has been mentioned before but I didn't think it would work on a Sebenza (tolerances too high).

What I did: I loosened all the handle screws and pivot screw just a bit. Then, pushing up on the locking side and down on the non-lock side, I retightened everything down. This took the lockup from 90% to just around 70% and the lockup is now just as solid as my other large Sebenza.

Good thing you managed to find a workaround. Too bad they couldn't fix it :(

This! Come on, sent in for warranty work and coming back with the same issues is ridiculous.

You shouldn't have to do a 'trick' to get a $400+ dollar knife to work properly (especially after its been sent it!).

Mr. Reeve has got to see that these kinds of actions are going to slowly push away customers. It might not hurt him now (after all he's got that 25 year reputation he's riding), but keep it up and it'll bit him in the ass like anyone else.

-sh00ter
 
I think I'll buy my next Sebenza when they offer a replaceable lock bar insert.
 
i think mr. Reeve should not pick up the phone
and hire some one for after sales

but i also think a good made knife should not have to be opened 20000 time before it works like it should work from day one
 
I don't want a sebenza anymore. Ten years ago there weren't many frame locks to choose from. I'm sure the knives are still top notch, but there's too many other options to treat your customers like this today.
 
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I don't want a sebenza anymore. Ten years ago there weren't many frame locks to choose from. I'm sure the knives are still top notch, but there's too many other options to treat your customers like this today.

Your loss.

CRK are the most well put together knives I've ever had...

I've had a LOT of knives...
 
but i also think a good made knife should not have to be opened 20000 time before it works like it should work from day one

What do you mean?

Mine have all worked the first time I opened them...

You just referring to the break in period? It will just be smoother, nothing changes in the function. If anything I appreciate that it gets smoother and smoother over time.
 
Your loss.

CRK are the most well put together knives I've ever had...

I've had a LOT of knives...

Tim,

have you ever had a warranty experience dealing with lock issues on any CRK?

Ive had many knives and crk's fit and finish is the best of them all, but once the lock wears down it isnt covered under warranty and Mr.Reeve assumes that you abused the knife. Its not fun buying from someone who assumes your lying when you have a warranty issue.

Anyways like Ive said before Everyone who has had a good experience with CRK's warranty had minor problems like stripped screws, fixing bad sharpening jobs and refurbishing the knife all together. When It comes to a big fix that will make Mr.Reeve lose money on a new lock side he states you abused it and must pay for a new lock when you know for a fact you didnt.

Either way thats what a Warranty department is for (fixing problems with a knife when they arise when the knife isnt abused)

I was never told if I edc'd my knife that it would void warranty :confused:
 
Thank's for the information. I was going to send one of mine in for warranty work, but after reading about the negative experience with CRK service, I think I will just order a new knife instead.
 
Thank's for the information. I was going to send one of mine in for warranty work, but after reading about the negative experience with CRK service, I think I will just order a new knife instead.

It really depends on the work needed. If its a lock up issue good luck with that, but they seem to take care of smaller issues when it comes to warranty.
 
I think I'll buy my next Sebenza when they offer a replaceable lock bar insert.

Since my oldest Sebenza (1996) got to 2011 without needing any work, and since it was tuned up for free, I'll keep buying 'em. :thumbup:
 
Thank's for the information. I was going to send one of mine in for warranty work, but after reading about the negative experience with CRK service, I think I will just order a new knife instead.

You might reconsider, given the positive experiences many people have had. It's also worth considering that forums like this tend to collect unrepresentatively large proportions of negative reports...people seldom come by to post that they had no trouble at all.
 
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