WALKING DEAD Season 4, Sunday 10-13-13

If the terminus people are roughly the equivalent of the hunters from the comic books, then we know basically what will happen. It's just a question of who might die/who will rescue whom etc.
 
Invite some people over for dinner. Recommend the book, "How To Serve Man."
 
Joe made it pretty clear they were going to "do" (not kill) Michone and Carl in front of Rick before killing him. I kind of didn't get why Carl didn't have the Beretta 92 of his out when the ugly fat and salivating paedophile was licking the car window, at least that may have slowed the events down a little.

I also got in trouble for screaming Terminus was a trap when the camera panned around and you saw the Prison IAT armour and Darryl's poncho in the crowd.

Oh...did anyone else cringe when Darryl dropped his TG on the concrete...???? :(

Andy
 
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BlackKnight86 said:
Agreed....Joe's group was 4-5 cowards held together by a manipulator. No value in those characters outside of antagonists to show development of two primary characters - Rick and Daryl. Good riddance.
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They could have been developed into much deeper characters. Rather than 1 dimensional paper-cutouts. (Just like the long-term residents of Woodbury, and the convicts Rick and the others first encountered at the prison.) But as usual, the writers got lazy. Introduce a new group, instead of individuals, and then kill off the entire group. Sometimes all at once, sometimes one by one until their presence has no other impact except to fill up a few episodes.
 
Monocrom said:
They could have been developed into much deeper characters. Rather than 1 dimensional paper-cutouts. (Just like the long-term residents of Woodbury, and the convicts Rick and the others first encountered at the prison.) But as usual, the writers got lazy. Introduce a new group, instead of individuals, and then kill off the entire group. Sometimes all at once, sometimes one by one until their presence has no other impact except to fill up a few episodes.
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See, I disagree with your "no impact" statement....they were catalysts to force Rick and Daryl to attain their real characters. When the rubber met the road, Daryl did not revert to his old mold, instead retaining the new mold that best fit the person he was inside. All that character growth that he attained in the time spent with Beth did not vanish; but he needed the conflict to finally embrace it.

And Rick needed to own his deeds, justly and unapologetically. One is not a monster if one does deeds that seem monstrous, but are inevitably necessary to stop real monsters. And how appropriate that it was Daryl to deliver that message to him....given that if Daryl and Merle's original plan (to rob the group way back in the first season) had come to fruition, Daryl would have been a predator, just like Joe and his group. Instead, he embraces the good that came out during his time with Beth and becomes Rick's "brother".

In storytelling, characters need only serve their necessary purpose. There is no rule that they all need to be fully dimensional, real-people characters....otherwise, you'd be talking about a far more involved storyline than a simple hour-long show every week. I thought it was a decent thread....overly simplistic? Yes. But that, too, is a function of the vehicle....the writers cannot make a story so involved that people get "Lost" in it. ;-)
 
BlackKnight86 said:
In storytelling, characters need only serve their necessary purpose. There is no rule that they all need to be fully dimensional, real-people characters....otherwise, you'd be talking about a far more involved storyline than a simple hour-long show every week. I thought it was a decent thread....overly simplistic? Yes. But that, too, is a function of the vehicle....the writers cannot make a story so involved that people get "Lost" in it. ;-)
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Doing it once is O.K.

Doing it repeatedly is just laziness. The convicts at the prison.... Okay, one of them was used to thin out the original group. the rest were just killed off for no reason. One at a time, but rather quickly. The long-term adult residents of residents of Woodbury.... Literally used as cannon-fodder, or flu-fodder. (We're supposed to believe that not one long-term adult resident of Woodbury survived the assault on the prison that caused the fences to fall??)

That's why it's laziness. Yes, Joe's entire gang served a purpose for both Rick and Daryl. But it doesn't change the fact that the writers keep taking the easy way out. Not one resident of Woodbury, not one of the convicts?? Come on. Did Axel really have to get shot in the head by The Governor? Just so Carol could use his dead corpse to absorb one rifle round after another which, had it actually happened, Carol would have been dead too because Axel is practically rail-thin. He could have been a valuable member of Rick's group. Especially with his mechanic's skills.

Yeah, Bob the alcoholic who magically in the very next episode is cured of his raging addiction (there's that laziness again); became a member of the group. But he wasn't even a Woodbury resident as we at first thought he was. He was just a lone, random, dude that was lucky enough to encounter Glenn and Daryl while those two were on a supply run. Bob gets to live. Still alive.

It's gotten predictable. Better not start liking anyone who is part of a group. They're not going to last long. If it's just a lone, random character, his chances are much better. (I predict Tara will meet a senseless end in Season 5. Perhaps being sacrificed and eaten by the cultists from Terminus.)
 
I wish they would pay attention to some details. It really stood out to me that Rick's 1911 wasn't cocked. In fact, I've seen 1911's used in movies where they always have the hammer down. I guess no one on the set has ever shot one?
 
Monocrom said:
Doing it once is O.K.

Doing it repeatedly is just laziness. The convicts at the prison.... Okay, one of them was used to thin out the original group. the rest were just killed off for no reason. One at a time, but rather quickly. The long-term adult residents of residents of Woodbury.... Literally used as cannon-fodder, or flu-fodder. (We're supposed to believe that not one long-term adult resident of Woodbury survived the assault on the prison that caused the fences to fall??)

That's why it's laziness. Yes, Joe's entire gang served a purpose for both Rick and Daryl. But it doesn't change the fact that the writers keep taking the easy way out. Not one resident of Woodbury, not one of the convicts?? Come on. Did Axel really have to get shot in the head by The Governor? Just so Carol could use his dead corpse to absorb one rifle round after another which, had it actually happened, Carol would have been dead too because Axel is practically rail-thin. He could have been a valuable member of Rick's group. Especially with his mechanic's skills.

Yeah, Bob the alcoholic who magically in the very next episode is cured of his raging addiction (there's that laziness again); became a member of the group. But he wasn't even a Woodbury resident as we at first thought he was. He was just a lone, random, dude that was lucky enough to encounter Glenn and Daryl while those two were on a supply run. Bob gets to live. Still alive.

It's gotten predictable. Better not start liking anyone who is part of a group. They're not going to last long. If it's just a lone, random character, his chances are much better. (I predict Tara will meet a senseless end in Season 5. Perhaps being sacrificed and eaten by the cultists from Terminus.)
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[Shrug].....sure. And Daryl would have died in the assault as well, because no single body is going to stop 5.56 at ten yards. But is that what you want?

I guess I'm not as involved in the details....if they are going to be overly simplistic and take shortcuts, then at least their consistency makes it easier to enjoy the story as it is.....as opposed to "Helix", "Lost", and other stories that try to peel the onion layer by layer, starting about 1/3 of the way down, moving to the surface, going back to the 2/3 point, before looping back around and heading toward the middle by way of the shell, etc. etc. Seems to me to be too much like homework; and I finished school a while ago.

I didn't "start liking" Joe and his gang, not because I was afraid they'd die too quickly, but because they were d-bags who were into rape and victimizing innocent strangers. As far as I'm concerned, they could have been fed into a wood-chipper feet first from the get-go. Their departure was cathartic for the viewer because they were unredeemable vermin.

The adult residents of Woodbury WERE cannon fodder.....sheep to the Governor's wolf. What did they do that elicits any sympathy? Why should any of us be attached to them?

Axel....that was a shame....I kind of liked him. But that could well have been another vehicle to convey the Governor's character. Let's face it: all stories have to have "men in red shirts".

Bob...."addiction" is an interesting term. Could well have been psychological, easily "curable" via the right impetus. Not to mention the fact that you don't know if he's "cured" or not, given that any new trauma could set him back.

Tara....she is a tale of redemption. Once redeemed, she is no longer necessary, depending upon how the author wants to use her. That's the uniqueness of storytelling.

The bottom line is, it cannot be EVERYONE's story; so it's not realistic to expect that EVERYONE will be fleshed out in detail. It doesn't HAVE to be laziness....it could just be the way they fit a long-term graphic novel into a weekly series with variable audience expectations.
 
To each their own, but some of you guys really analyze/over-analyze this show, don't you? I watch TV to be entertained and not have to "think" too much about what the hell is going on. That's just me guess. Bottom line is that we all seem to enjoy the series. We just act and react to how it's played out a bit differently. I'm not looking forward to waiting until October for the new season to start.
 
BlackKnight86 said:
[Shrug].....sure. And Daryl would have died in the assault as well, because no single body is going to stop 5.56 at ten yards. But is that what you want?
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Why would Daryl have died? he used a pretty thick Walker to shield himself. Axel was practically anorexic.

I guess I'm not as involved in the details....if they are going to be overly simplistic and take shortcuts, then at least their consistency makes it easier to enjoy the story as it is.....as opposed to "Helix", "Lost", and other stories that try to peel the onion layer by layer, starting about 1/3 of the way down, moving to the surface, going back to the 2/3 point, before looping back around and heading toward the middle by way of the shell, etc. etc. Seems to me to be too much like homework; and I finished school a while ago.
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I'm sorry, but the writers for "Lost" were just making stuff up as they went along, after the first time-travel incident. Yeah, I'm just an amateur writer. But "Amateur" just means someone who isn't paid for what they do. That's all. I've written fun little stories for my small but loyal following on another site in which I made up the story as I went along. I know what it looks like when someone does that. And it's blatantly clear that's what the writers at "Lost" were doing. Not initially, but clearly later on. A story doesn't have to be overly simplistic or feature lazy writing in order to be good. A complex story is fine. The problem is that on this past Sunday's The Talking Dead, Scott Gimple blatantly said, "We re-invent the show every 8 episodes." Huh?!?!.... You know.... That explains a lot! And he's blatantly telling us they have no long-term vision for the show! Really?? Well, that definitely explains the over-simplification as well as the sheer lazy writing we've seen for much of Season 4. Season 5 might be fantastic since the odd-numbered seasons tend to kick butt. Seasons 1 and 3 were fantastic. Seasons 2 and 4? Not so much. (And that's putting it mildly.) No long-term vision for the show. No need to carefully consider what's going to happen to new characters who get introduced. Joe was fascinating as Hell in the short time he was alive. When he and his gang all of a sudden catch up to Rick, he turns into a one-dimensional scumbag "Bad Guy." What the Hell?!

I didn't "start liking" Joe and his gang, not because I was afraid they'd die too quickly, but because they were d-bags who were into rape and victimizing innocent strangers. As far as I'm concerned, they could have been fed into a wood-chipper feet first from the get-go. Their departure was cathartic for the viewer because they were unredeemable vermin.
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That's how they were written as. Had the writers bothered to give them some depth (actually they did with Joe, but then suddenly took that away from him in one scene right before he died), they could have been excellent fixtures during Season 5. (Or at least Joe, and perhaps Tony.) Dan was just a big bald guy up until that last scene in which they all lost their lives. Hey, let's make him a pedo. All that character interaction between Joe and Daryl?.... Let's toss that out the window. Let's over-simplify everything. Well, truth is, a complex and intriguing story-line can be written. It just takes some work to keep all the facts straight as well as plot-points. (I know. I've done that. Seriously, it's not that hard.)

The adult residents of Woodbury WERE cannon fodder.....sheep to the Governor's wolf. What did they do that elicits any sympathy? Why should any of us be attached to them?
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He hid his true nature from everyone. If the Undead were all over the place, and a charming, good-looking, dude offered you a home, electricity, real food, a chance to be part of a community in a real town.... Are You going to say No thanks? Two groups. You have a chance to join one or the other. Not knowing much of anything about either of their leaders. Which would you pick? To live in a real town or a dirty prison? I'd pick the town. Hell, most of us would. Let's be realistic here.

The residents of Woodbury were a golden opportunity to introduce at least a couple of new long-term characters. An opportunity that was thrown away. The only nice thing about implying that every long-term resident of Woodbury didn't make it, is that the Producers have left things open for a somewhat cheap but still useful plot device.... Introducing a brand new character while pretending he's an old one.... A Woodbury survivor from the prison who made it out but didn't get any "camera time" after the fences at the prison fell. (And, not just one character.) Imagine a scene in which someone calls out to Rick or Daryl or Tyreese by their name and tosses one of them a gun to kill some Walkers. Then that well-known character walks up to them and says, "It's good to see you. Glad you survived." And then we get a nice little flashback to the very start of Season 4 in which you see the new guy at the prison conversing with Daryl or one of the others about his experiences in Woodbury under the Governor.

Yeah, it's a bit of a middle-finger to the audience. You don't see it done too often. Very rarely actually. But it can be done to introduce a brand new character whom you want to already be familiar to any existing and established characters.

Axel....that was a shame....I kind of liked him. But that could well have been another vehicle to convey the Governor's character. Let's face it: all stories have to have "men in red shirts".
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Yes, all shows need "Red Shirts." But not a small army of new Red Shirts every few episodes.

Bob...."addiction" is an interesting term. Could well have been psychological, easily "curable" via the right impetus. Not to mention the fact that you don't know if he's "cured" or not, given that any new trauma could set him back.
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Bob's alcoholism is so bad that he was chugging cough syrup in that one episode in which they showed how he and Daryl met. Bob secured the entrance to the cave. Ate a can of food. Then chugged on the cough syrup before that one Walker found him but couldn't get to him. Then all of a sudden, Bob is cured! Yeah, they made it look as though Bob's raging alcoholism was very real. Then he acts happy & cured. It's just silly.

Tara....she is a tale of redemption. Once redeemed, she is no longer necessary, depending upon how the author wants to use her. That's the uniqueness of storytelling.
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Not really. You don't give a character redemption and then immediately kill them off. (Unless the character was a particularly wicked bad guy who found redemption and then later lost his Life sacrificing himself for others.) You don't give him redemption and then in the very next episode have him go back to being the scumbag that he originally was (The Governor). You don't sell out your own characters after giving them personalities and a bit of depth (Martinez). That's just the height of laziness in storytelling.

The bottom line is, it cannot be EVERYONE's story; so it's not realistic to expect that EVERYONE will be fleshed out in detail. It doesn't HAVE to be laziness....it could just be the way they fit a long-term graphic novel into a weekly series with variable audience expectations.
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I don't expect everyone's back-story to be fleshed out. Just saying that it's lazy as hell to introduced new characters, give them some depth, turn them one-dimensional in the very next episode, kill them off, and then lather, rinse, repeat. And that's exactly what the writers have been doing for awhile.
 
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this_is_nascar said:
To each their own, but some of you guys really analyze/over-analyze this show, don't you? I watch TV to be entertained and not have to "think" too much about what the hell is going on. That's just me guess. Bottom line is that we all seem to enjoy the series. We just act and react to how it's played out a bit differently. I'm not looking forward to waiting until October for the new season to start.
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With a good show, you end up caring about the characters. I'm already fiending for the start of the new season. There's really only one way for them to get out of the train-car. Going to be interesting to see if the writers try something else though.
 
Monocrom said:
Bob's alcoholism is so bad that he was chugging cough syrup in that one episode in which they showed how he and Daryl met. Bob secured the entrance to the cave. Ate a can of food. Then chugged on the cough syrup before that one Walker found him but couldn't get to him. Then all of a sudden, Bob is cured! Yeah, they made it look as though Bob's raging alcoholism was very real. Then he acts happy & cured. It's just silly.
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Bob's alcoholism was so bad he was eating gelled alcohol fuel out of a can prior to drinking the cough syrup, wasn't he? Or was that supposed to be some other bright pink translucent paste in a can?

Monocrom said:
With a good show, you end up caring about the characters. I'm already fiending for the start of the new season. There's really only one way for them to get out of the train-car. Going to be interesting to see if the writers try something else though.
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One way? What is it that you are thinking?
 
Tom Kanik said:
Carol and Tyrese are still out there!;):thumbup:
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I would assume that the first episode would be Carol and Tyreese busting them out. Then presumably, given Rick's penchant for neck biting, they would go back with the buried guns and do in the terminus creeps...but that's a big assumption on my part. Who knows? maybe a few of them might end up as good ole' fashioned, extra smokey, Georgia-style soylent green BBQ.
 
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