Water Quench.. Words of wisdom... :(

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SBranson

SBranson

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I just cracked my second blade in a row quenching in water.. :(

I tried using my big Don Fogg style forge for HT this time and stupid me forgot about keeping the spine below critical... Got a nice even colour on the blade, all happy, then into the water,,, I did interrupt the quench but back in and ping, ping, ping... Nothing spectacular and again I hope it was the tongs doing something but then out of the tempering oven and sure enough, 3 cracks.

So... I dug around in some old threads to post this from Bill Burke.. stupid me for forgetting this..

Bill Burke said:
Well at the risk of personnel retribution on here!!!


When I first started using clay and water I broke almost every blade that I did. But being too stupid to give up and succumb to the norm(parks 50) I kept at it. I did get better and was only breaking about two thirds of my blades. Then I went to Japan and watched as some of the best sword/knife makers in the world quenched blades IN WATER. I watched in amazement as orange hot knives were plunged into warm water and swirled around as if the smith were stirring a pot of soup, and i never seen one cracked blade. Sword smiths went from the fire right into cold water and held the screaming blade there until it was cool and again no cracks.
So When I returned Home I started breaking knives again. I broke knives if I austenitzed in a digitally controlled oven and I broke knives if I heated them in salts and I broke knives if I heated them in the forge. I went back to my old ways of interrupting my quench and didn't break as many but still most of them broke. I bought parks 50 and didn't break blades but the hamons where not what I wanted usually ending up very close to the edge. I reflected on what I saw in Japan and what finally dawned on me was that the edge was the only part of the knife that was above critical temp was the edge. I made more knives and put clay on them and heated in the forge with the windows covered and the lights out. checked the edge with a magnet and when it was nonmagnetic went back into the forge long enought o make sure my heat was even and then as fast as I could from the forge into the slack tub and held it there teeth gritted waiting fo the crack. the blade quit screaming What no ping!! over to the grinder for a quick look HOLY SHIT I got a STIFFY. this is cool. do five more as quick as I can slather on the clay and into the forge while it is still wet. heat into the water great I think I'm coming. OK time to do a sword I cant get it into the frorge so I will use my 48 inch paragon. heat into the water __________ping_________________ping ___PING pingpingpingpingping ping. It cracked almost every half inch for the entire length of the blade. SHIT. Now what the F*&^%. Oh dumb as the whole blade was at temp. duhh.
Anyway the purpose of this long drawn out story is to try and convey to you the bullshit that I put myself through and to let you know that I've done this enough to have some small idea of what I'm talking about and not just relaying information that I have heard or read somewhere.


So what I have learned. put a very thin wash of clay over the entire blade. put the clay on the back no more than 1/8th of an inch thick. while letting the edge soak at temp is importtant keeping the spine below critical is equally so, so you have to keep putting the blade in and out of the fire. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO NOT OVER HEAT THE BLADE. even the upper end of the austenitizing range is too hot for a water/brine quench with some steels. if the clay pops of the blade when heating it you didn't have the blade clean enough before putting on the clay dosen't matter if the clay is wet or dry. it is also more prone to cracking and a shitty looking hamon if the clay comes off. Nothing special needs to be done with the water as far as heating or cleaning if your heat and clay is right. I have done twenty five blade now into plain water with no cracks to preasent of course now the next ten will break since I have written all this down.


Good luck
Click to expand...


Feeling pretty bummed... not so much for cracking the blade as for making the stupid mistake that made the blade crack.. :mad::mad:

Oh well...
 
Here's an aspect of water quenching I've not much explored. Kind of makes me want to go play with some small W2 blades to try. I do remember reading Y. Yoshihara heats his blades evenly hotter along the edge, cooler along the spine.

Thanks for posting this, and better future luck!
 
I am with Salem, this makes me want to go try a water quench... Thanks for sharing your experience as well as re posting Mr. Burke's!
 
Geeze, now I want to try it also! I have a couple of cracked reminders sitting on my bench right now...


-Xander
 
also remember, which is part of the variable here, the steel the japanese smith is using. Tamahagane is about the simpelest of steels, all bets are off when you start playing with "newer" alloys.
 
True, but I doubt Burke was using tamahagane in the above scenario. Also, for hamon blades we do tend to try to use stuff which approaches the properties of tamahagane- low alloy as possible, shallow hardening steels.

Hitachi White #2 would be pretty awesome to try hamons with, I think.

I think I'll try a few this way with W1 soon and post with results when I do.
 
Salem Straub said:
True, but I doubt Burke was using tamahagane in the above scenario. Also, for hamon blades we do tend to try to use stuff which approaches the properties of tamahagane- low alloy as possible, shallow hardening steels.

Hitachi White #2 would be pretty awesome to try hamons with, I think.

I think I'll try a few this way with W1 soon and post with results when I do.
Click to expand...

the statement I was trying to make...

the simple steels they use in japan that are quenched in water have much less of an issue of cracking because of their being little to no alloying.

I've water quenched 1095, 1085, W2
 
I am in the same boat here. I used to use Parks 50, but a family member dumped it out by accident thinking it was waste. =( so i have been using my mcMaster carr 10 second quench oil but have been super disappointed with the hamon clarity and intricacy... so i went back to water. first couple cracked, breaking my heart with each PING. Water is a cruel beast.

again.. like you said... i was so concerned about getting the blade EVEN that i let the whole blade get too hot, and the water was too cold. I have started heating my water (with steel from the forge.. so not exact) but hot enough that i wouldn't want to leave my hand in there. (i heard 180 degrees somewhere) and the last 5 knives were quenched in water with no cracks and minimal warping... and the hamons are much better than they have been. Nothing like Stuart's... but getting there.

water FTW
 
Are your hamons more defined with water or parks?

Knifemaker87 said:
I am in the same boat here. I used to use Parks 50, but a family member dumped it out by accident thinking it was waste. =( so i have been using my mcMaster carr 10 second quench oil but have been super disappointed with the hamon clarity and intricacy... so i went back to water. first couple cracked, breaking my heart with each PING. Water is a cruel beast.

again.. like you said... i was so concerned about getting the blade EVEN that i let the whole blade get too hot, and the water was too cold. I have started heating my water (with steel from the forge.. so not exact) but hot enough that i wouldn't want to leave my hand in there. (i heard 180 degrees somewhere) and the last 5 knives were quenched in water with no cracks and minimal warping... and the hamons are much better than they have been. Nothing like Stuart's... but getting there.

water FTW
Click to expand...
 
Great thread Stuart (even though there was a lot of heartache that got it started).

I did enough water quenching to know I am one of those guys that will bang his head into the wall about 100 times before I realize I need to try a different direction. I'd love to say I had an epiphany and got it figured out... but my failure rate going into water was just too high to keep at it. I have been pretty darn happy with quenching 1095 and W2 in Park50 for WESTERN style blades that don't need sori.... but I can't help but want to do more of it just because I hate feeling like something I tried to figure out really kicked my butt.

I can't think of anyone better than Bill Burke to turn to for guidance on this. He has put in the time, effort, blood, sweat, lots of tears to know what he's speaking of.... AND, he can actually pull it off. :thumbup: :cool:

edited to say: my experience was just like Bill's... minus the part where he really figured it out!!! lol/crying. My success was 70% at best, but usually much lower.
 
Funny.. I started this thread because I was so down about being so stupid as to wreck what would have been a really nice tanto. Didn't really expect much discussion...

The reason I changed to the Don Fogg style forge this time was because of this great little video Jesus Hernandez put together.
(it sure makes me want a power hammer)

[youtube]LmRCCy7Bta8[/youtube]

In it he uses that style of forge and gets the whole blade austenitic. I wrote him and asked about this and he replied that he does this to have better control of the heat as the other way, controlled direct heating to try and get only the edge austenitic, is tougher to control and has a shorter window for quenching..
He just accepts that some will fail in water.

So... what can be done to minimize cracking? I have been looking at some of my books and most of the hamons are pretty close to the edge. If I look at my last cracked knife, I suspect it failed because I had too much hardened edge and as the spine continued to contract, the force on the edge grew and grew... "tink"...

I think maybe something similar may have happened here with my tanto as I put the clay a little higher up the blade this time looking for a more active hamon. Or... I over heated..

I just forged a sunobe for a wakizashi last night so I should be trying again this weekend. I will never give up on water because I am in love with sori. :p:)
 
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Yeah, I've watched it a few times. Beautiful control forging in the bevels.

Have you seen these videos? Kinda off this topic but fantastic.

[youtube]wGMj7o6AwnM[/youtube]

[youtube]pM0VnL30rDc[/youtube]
 
temp is super important in a hamon (atleast that's what I've noticed) . A 100 degrees made a huge difference in 2 blades I made- same steel, same soak time, same quench medium.
overheating, from my expierience, as well as uneven geometry or thin are usually the main culprits .I have a feeling "overheating" might be less than 100degrees, I haven't done exact temp. study yet.
 
Thanks for sharing Stuart. Your two Bush swords are jaw dropping. I'd love to see a picture of the clay prequench.
Those Hamon's are beautiful! Bill Burke says it best "HOLY SHIT I got a STIFFY!"
 
This is W2, water quenched. I used satanite.
004-16.jpg


same steel, the only variable was 100degrees lower temp
001-12.jpg
 
Interesting but really there are a few variables I would say. The geometries are completely different and I would think the upper blade had more mass.

Looks like you left the upper blade's spine without clay..

I think all that activity near the tang on the first blade is due to geometry. Did the clay blow off of the first blade?
 
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