Water Quench.. Words of wisdom... :(

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I just cracked my first blade using water yesterday (1095), probably because it's been so cold lately.

Are low allow steels (1055, etc) available in bar stock?
 
spine thikness is the same, and they were clayed the same. yes, geometry is different, but there's alot more activity in the top blade. Yep, the clay blew off in a few spots, i think that was also a result of it being hotter.
Speaking of "activity", i'm not talking about the shape, but rather the difference in the hamon structure itself.
 
any thoughts on if it's the unevenness (is that a word?) of the collapse of the vapor jacket at higher temps that would cause more activity?
 
SBranson said:
Yeah, I've watched it a few times. Beautiful control forging in the bevels.

Have you seen these videos? Kinda off this topic but fantastic.

[youtube]wGMj7o6AwnM[/youtube]

[youtube]pM0VnL30rDc[/youtube]
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Thanks for sharing those vids, amazing indeed.
 
Mitchell Knives said:
I just cracked my first blade using water yesterday (1095), probably because it's been so cold lately.

Are low allow steels (1055, etc) available in bar stock?
Click to expand...

The chemistry of Admiral's 1050:
C .47/.55 Mn .60/.90 P .020 max S .025 Max Si .15/.30

Not very much carbon, so fairly low potential for edge holding- and the manganese is too high to be a really good hamon steel.

Admiral's 1095:
C .90/1.04 Mn .30/.50 P .020 max. S .025 max Si.15/.30

More carbon, higher performance, lower manganese, so more shallow hardening- i.e., suitable for hamon. I've hear bad things though about Admiral's 1095 being spotty quality.

1095 would probably be better bought from Aldo. Then, while you're shopping there anyway, the W-series steels have even lower manganese and are generally cleaner. I hear good things about Aldo's low-Mn 1075 (WHC) but don't know if he's got any now.
 
Salem Straub said:
The chemistry of Admiral's 1050:
C .47/.55 Mn .60/.90 P .020 max S .025 Max Si .15/.30

Not very much carbon, so fairly low potential for edge holding- and the manganese is too high to be a really good hamon steel.

Admiral's 1095:
C .90/1.04 Mn .30/.50 P .020 max. S .025 max Si.15/.30

More carbon, higher performance, lower manganese, so more shallow hardening- i.e., suitable for hamon. I've hear bad things though about Admiral's 1095 being spotty quality.

1095 would probably be better bought from Aldo. Then, while you're shopping there anyway, the W-series steels have even lower manganese and are generally cleaner. I hear good things about Aldo's low-Mn 1075 (WHC) but don't know if he's got any now.
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I agree about buying from aldo, I've had bad dealings with admiral.
 
SShepherd said:
spine thikness is the same, and they were clayed the same. yes, geometry is different, but there's alot more activity in the top blade. Yep, the clay blew off in a few spots, i think that was also a result of it being hotter.
Speaking of "activity", i'm not talking about the shape, but rather the difference in the hamon structure itself.
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i did clay quench several time just for fun.

if you experience clay being blew off, mix the clay with some anti-oxidation coating. its a greenish half molten liquid. you should be able to buy that at heat treatment supply shop. mix 15%~20% into your clay. coat it on the spine of the blade then dry it with a torch. and the thing will sticky to the spine of the blade. it so sticky to the steel that it forced me to grind it off the surface every time after quenching. sometimes it take a whole new belt for doing that.
 
hammerfall said:
i did clay quench several time just for fun.

if you experience clay being blew off, mix the clay with some anti-oxidation coating. its a greenish half molten liquid. you should be able to buy that at heat treatment supply shop. mix 15%~20% into your clay. coat it on the spine of the blade then dry it with a torch. and the thing will sticky to the spine of the blade. it so sticky to the steel that it forced me to grind it off the surface every time after quenching. sometimes it take a whole new belt for doing that.
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it was just one of those things that happened. I let it air dry overnight and it's usually not a problem.
 
I don't usually have the clay fall off. I stop at 120 grit with the grinder so the clay has something to hold on to and clean the blade really well just before applying the clay. I do a light wash of the whole blade which usually dries quickly because the blade is still warm from washing it, then apply the pattern. Done this way, in my experience, it makes no difference whether the clay is dry or wet.
 
I just bookmarked this for reference. My first 2 blades used farrier files (i get em free I am a farrier LOL) did well in a canola quench. Just got some 1084 going to canola as well. But someday.... more difficult steels in water.
 
mgysgthath said:
Are your hamons more defined with water or parks?
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i have had better results with water, however parks was great and had fewer cracks. the biggest difference was honestly not as much the hamon definition as it was the droop. with parks it tended to droop the blade on quenching. water droops then bends the blade back. if you leave clay off the spine in water i get no droop or curve.

also with the clay popping off, i also leave my blades at 120 or draw file them before claying them up. i brush on a thin thin thin coat over the entire blade before putting on the clay, and i heat it with a propane torch to rapid dry it and let it sit for about 30 min. then before i put the blade in the forge i move it around outside the forge door to finish drying the clay before putting it in. i almost never have clay pop off that way.
 
SBranson said:
I don't usually have the clay fall off. I stop at 120 grit with the grinder so the clay has something to hold on to and clean the blade really well just before applying the clay. I do a light wash of the whole blade which usually dries quickly because the blade is still warm from washing it, then apply the pattern. Done this way, in my experience, it makes no difference whether the clay is dry or wet.
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yep, that's exactly what I do also. I remember it took me forever to figure it out when I fist started messing with clay, nothing worse than having it fall off in the oven when you take the blade out to quench it.:o
 
Has any of you asked yourself, did Japanese swordsmiths:

- use magnet as a temperature detector

- put cold sword in forge heated to the maximum

- do something you call "normalization"
which exists nowhere in professional metallurgy as a pre-heat-treatment-process.
Normalization is a heat treatment by itself, done in cases when maximum hardness is not necessary.
But in attempt to raise "successful" heat treatment rates, where they are low because of bad heat treatment process,
knifemakers have invented something new, which gives an illusion of being beneficial
while in reality they get a product that is not heat treated properly but, at least, it has not been ruined.

- do interrupted quench
Same as above, raising the number of "successful" heat treatments on account of quality.



Heat treatment errors may not be caused solely by heat treatment alone,
very often they are a consequence of forging errors,
most commonly because of cold forging (forging under the allowed temperatures for that steel).
 
Valar God said:
Has any of you asked yourself, did Japanese swordsmiths:

- use magnet as a temperature detector

- put cold sword in forge heated to the maximum

- do something you call "normalization"
which exists nowhere in professional metallurgy as a pre-heat-treatment-process.
Normalization is a heat treatment by itself, done in cases when maximum hardness is not necessary.
But in attempt to raise "successful" heat treatment rates, where they are low because of bad heat treatment process,
knifemakers have invented something new, which gives an illusion of being beneficial
while in reality they get a product that is not heat treated properly but, at least, it has not been ruined.

- do interrupted quench
Same as above, raising the number of "successful" heat treatments on account of quality.



Heat treatment errors may not be caused solely by heat treatment alone,
very often they are a consequence of forging errors,
most commonly because of cold forging (forging under the allowed temperatures for that steel).
Click to expand...

uhh, no- they had no way to measure temperature, let alone temps over 1000 degrees

burning charcoal is pretty much "maximum"

you have to realize the steel those "traditional" smaiths used are different than what we use today.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree a bit

edit; mayber something got lost in translation ?
 
You are missing a point.

Japanese haven't done those.
And they were pretty much the most skilled swordsmiths in the world and in history.

People that complain about heat treatment failures do the things I have mentioned, hence the failures.

Perhaps they didn't have a way to measure the temperature
in sense of telling how many degrees it has reached
but they sure knew how to tell the right critical temperature
which is the only important thing about it.

The difference in the steel used is of no significance.
 
Valar God said:
You are missing a point.

And they were pretty much the most skilled swordsmiths in the world and in history.
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A highly debatable position to take. It is also an incorrect assumption that Japanese blade smiths had no failures. The differences in steel would be quite significant. The techniques used by modern Japanese swordsmiths using traditional methods would have to change quite a bit to get the same results if they were given modern steel. Could they change? Absolutely. Are the differences significant? I'd say so, or we wouldn't be using modern steel.
 
I'm with ya, Salem, but still it's an interesting question: How DO the Japanese smiths get the results that they do without digital ovens and engineered oils?
Perhaps if we were willing to do ten year apprenticeships we'd have some of their nonchalant mojo.
One thing we can be grateful for- at least they don't use *shudder* Canola oil :eek:

andy g
 
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