We Appreciate You, and We Need You

[Tim the Wizard]

A friend tells me 5/32" is the best. The truth is out there :kiwi-fruit:

RE: Spine Width

Thinking out loud here, slightly off topic, and not responding to any one poster. Spine width does not necessarily equate to ease of the initial cut nor ease of slicing. More important are two factors: 1. the width of the face of the blade which terminates behind the secondary edge (read: back bevel). 2. The acuity of the primary edge or cutting bevel.

Two edge bevels, equally thin, should cut the same initially regardless of the thickness of the spine. If a long slicing motion is desired as when cutting into a thick soft object, only then does the secondary edge and eventually the face of the blade contribute to the cut, with thicker knives producing a wedge in thick media. Therefore, one would not expect a difference when slicing paracord or rope, but would notice a difference when slicing an apple. Furthermore, the wedge may be considered desirable if the knife is used to split wood. One may also see the utility of a thick knife, in so much as the thickness adds to weight, on a knife like the Camp Nessie or the Camp Knife that could be used for light chopping. It occurs to me that a thin Nessmuk is such a good slicer because the profile is very wide, permitting a very fine distal taper to the edge. Combined with a sufficiently acute primary bevel, it will cut through most media without any impingement from the spine.

I would also argue, from a collector's perspective, the aesthetic of the knife is changed based on the initial thickness of the steel. This can improve the appeal of the collection by preventing homogeneity.

More important than all of this is how the knife feels in hand. Weight and thickness definitely contribute to everyone being able to find a knife eventually that is a good fit.

Andy, best of luck my friend. Keep making and hope the world catches on.

 

[Fiddleback]

I, like a # of the men who have taken the time to post here, have zero idea of what you mean by certain people feeling butthurt, & way less of an idea of how exactly a few of these people could be the cause of a noticeable downturn.

Well, much of the downturn is industry wide. The dealers are slow, everybody is slow. Hell, even Walmart is slow. But even a few folks walking away makes the hurt deeper. Every one of y'all is special and important to us.

I'm a custom fixed blade only knife collector, and I own only two FF-related knives, a mid-tech camp knife & an Apache Hunter by Chris. The mid-tech camp is my favorite large knife, & the AH is my favorite knife, period. So, FF doesn't represent much of my collection #s-wise, but they lead the way quality/appeal-wise. There are a few models that I'd love to own, but I've been focusing on buying knives from many of the great custom makers on the Fixed Blade Exchange here on BF instead. I honestly haven't thought about why, though I guess it's mostly financial....I can't afford to buy every knife I love, so I'm left to figure out how to buy knives that speak to me, & do so with maximum efficiency. I bought a couple knives recently from one great maker, a long & pointy bird & trout with TS-Kevlar, liners, & super sharp 52100 w/a nice leather sheath for $165 & a 10"OAL beauty in CPM-3V & blue resin-filled pinecone scales w/a nice leather sheath for $230. I just purchased an awesome 9"OAL drop point hunter in ELMAX, gorgeous dyed stabilized burl, copper HW, tapered tang for $255. And those are just a few examples of a few dozen that I could list. I'm able to get amazing works of functional art, with top notch blade & scale materials & sheaths in many cases, for considerably less than a FF knife of any comparability (granted, some of what I have doesn't really have a FF to accurately compare it to, size/style-wise). Heck, my all time favorite knife in the world, by Chris Linton, my beautiful Apache Hunter in dyed stabilized Black Ash Burl over natural micarta, NM pins, tapered tang, pink liner, & CPM-154CM cost me only $200 (I lucked out & got it from the original buyer, who paid only $230 for it).

As to this, each guy runs a business differently, and many custom makers are not charging a good hourly rate for their time. Many part time makers are only recouping their expenses. I can show you a bunch of examples of really ugly knives that are priced much higher than ours, and are selling, somehow. There is some girl in New York making file knives, think primative skills and designs, and selling them for $700. I don't get that. Think of Chris' knife you bought. I trained Chris and he is charging his wage. That is why is price is how it is. Its not that he is getting rich from this, or even that he is greedy. He's charging a fair hourly rate in the price. I've said before that hobby makers only charging for materials, hurt this industry. If y'all want this industry to thrive, if you want young Americans to pick up this trade, you've got to spend the money on the guys that are really living from it. Not saying this is whats happening with the makers of the knives in your examples. There are a lot of factors to determine price. But as an industry, hobby makers hurt the guys running businesses by competing with a different set of rules.

 

[Dman3d]

Well, much of the downturn is industry wide. The dealers are slow, everybody is slow. Hell, even Walmart is slow. But even a few folks walking away makes the hurt deeper. Every one of y'all is special and important to us.



As to this, each guy runs a business differently, and many custom makers are not charging a good hourly rate for their time. Many part time makers are only recouping their expenses. I can show you a bunch of examples of really ugly knives that are priced much higher than ours, and are selling, somehow. There is some girl in New York making file knives, think primative skills and designs, and selling them for $700. I don't get that. Think of Chris' knife you bought. I trained Chris and he is charging his wage. That is why is price is how it is. Its not that he is getting rich from this, or even that he is greedy. He's charging a fair hourly rate in the price. I've said before that hobby makers only charging for materials, hurt this industry. If y'all want this industry to thrive, if you want young Americans to pick up this trade, you've got to spend the money on the guys that are really living from it. Not saying this is whats happening with the makers of the knives in your examples. There are a lot of factors to determine price. But as an industry, hobby makers hurt the guys running businesses by competing with a different set of rules.

There is a similar issue with production art. It ends up being a race to the bottom. It's more about competing with one off small shops or in our case outsource providers. The thing on our side is customer service and a one stop shop for all client needs. The culture internally and with the clients is also part of the value add.

With the forge there is a deep experience with the culture and product.

 

[TxSportsman]

So many small business fail because of (well millions of things) a poor pricing model (not actually paying themselves). Andy, I for one am pleased with the price/quality you offer and really hope that you are making sure to keep track of every little expenditure that goes into a knife, plus YOUR hours. Can't wait for this weeks batch.

 

[VanDammet]

Great points in the above three posts. It's such a tough business.

I'm an economist by trade, so I get the theories you're referring to Andy & Dman3d. I fully understand why Chris' knives are priced the way they are, & I would have paid double or triple for the knife because it's simply the most beautiful knife I've ever seen...it's the one knife that I'd cry like a little girl over if ever it was lost. I guess I would just add that maybe the largest reason I choose to spend part of my knife buying money with these hobby type makers is not just the lower pricing, it's the unique one-off designs that I'm able to acquire. The majority of the knives I buy from these men do not compare style wise with any of the great designs in the FF stable. I have a form of knife addiction that compels me to purchase knives that just speak to me, so I don't look for a certain pattern necessarily.

And the argument of superior customer service, or HTs, or fill in the blank of the usual responses, for the most part don't apply to the men I buy from (they certainly do apply to a # of these hobby makers, & I don't buy from them). I've only ever had one warranty issue with any knife I've owned, & it happened to be from one of these hobby makers. It was 100% my fault, the knife fell onto a very hard surface and bent the tip...I mentioned it to him just to get some advice on how to fix it & he insisted on fixing it for me & wouldn't let me pay him...he said it's part of my service, for life. So - I'm picky with the men I buy from, & I've ended up with a bunch of great knives & relationships & the price points really don't do anything other than allow me to amass more of them, more quickly than I could otherwise....but I would still be buying these same knives, because I love the individual knives & respect & in most cases know the makers.

Again, I'm just one knife addict relaying my own perspective on the custom fixed blade market...& I love everything about FF, that's why I bought the camp knife & why I'll buy a few more designs in the future, but in my case, FF doesn't make every single knife that my crazed knife mind is after, & these hobby makers do...does that make sense?

 

[tac4me]

Sorry to hear about the trend Andy. I think you have a great product and great people working for you. I have a pocket kephart and HB that I really love. For myself, I prefer to buy direct and through the forum rather than from retailers for your pieces.

I also have found a larger fondness for the lighter weight and thinner blades, which tend to be scarce and rare from FF. When they do arrive on shark day I'm at work and the dedicated few here are definitely in possession of faster internet connections. As such, I simply stopped purchasing them. The hunt was fun at first, but then it just got frustrating. Your prices and those of your apprentices are fair for the product you are providing. Being a city guy I seldom get the use I would like from the knives and I don't care for safe queens.
I carried my "celeste" by Forty Point more than anything due largely to it's size and that Judy made it custom for me.

It also may have been my luck, but all the blades I purchased came with an inadequate edge and I had to redo them all. I have to consider that as well when it comes to where I spend my money. Do I spend $300+ for a knife i can rarely carry and plan to put a couple hours of work into, or do I spend less for a better role player that I will also have to spend time on. Just my opinion and my experience and it's not meant as an insult to quality or anything and most people are just fine with the performance. Again, I do think FF knives are some of the finest for fit and finish you will find on the market, bar none.

I believe the demographic is changing dramatically and so is the market. My brother is 7 years younger than me and beats his knives into the ground or buys brands I won't touch due to cost and either throws them out or gives them to me to restore. From what I know, part of the reason for a the shift to more premium steels is to address a deficiency of skills and interest in the consumer market...they can't sharpen knives anymore. I train a lot of engineers and the old skills and trades just don't interest them. My mother-in-law was recently trying to explain to my wife that she heard of a kitchen knife that is self sharpening for life and she was interested in it...mull that one over. My wife quickly said, "I don't worry about that, I have a husband who loves knives and they are always sharp." I can tell you when you take an engineer and pile on a deep love of knives you get someone who looks at every detail of a knife to understand how it came to be: lines, materials, size, grind...I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But what I am saying is it's rare; beyond the forum membership. I come on most Fridays late in the day, just to appreciate the designs and the work, wishing I could partake. Sadly, it just isn't in the cards it seems.

I really liked the idea where you started taking your production models and upgrading them to with your custom scales. Genius. Availability became an issue for me. One or two here and there and the scales were seldom to my taste, when they were, poof to the internet connection constraints and another happy shark who agreed with me. I still can't get into the large black bolsters...

I can only hope you find some value in these remarks. I created such a lengthy post out of respect for what you bring to the knife world and my appreciation for getting to be a part of it. I continue to be a supporter of your company. Thank you.

 

[TomR2]

I'm an economist by trade......

...........does that make sense?

Nah! Sorry for chopping up your quote. My original degree was in Econ. Making sense, infers this is "logical." But is it? This is what i was thinking about when I wrote above about being a data guy and/but living in a physical world with very personal reactions to the physical. I dig that "rational markets" theory is giving way to behavioral thinking. I laugh at myself as my brain struggles to put logic on this knife buying thing, while looking at my growing pile, and realizing I couldn't possibly explain what Im doing to anybody...

Shape, size, color, texture = emotion? I've joked with Phillip on more than one occasion, "I'm buying handles."

To paraphrase Tina Turner, "Whats logic got to do with it?"

 

[Fiddleback]

for the most part don't apply to the men I buy from (they certainly do apply to a # of these hobby makers, & I don't buy from them).

I totaly understand that. These hobby makers I speak of aren't bad people, and they aren't bad knifemakers. Quite the opposite. Sometimes its makers with 30 years experience. Great men that I respect and ask advice from every time I see them.

Sorry to hear about the trend Andy. I think you have a great product and great people working for you. I have a pocket kephart and HB that I really love. For myself, I prefer to buy direct and through the forum rather than from retailers for your pieces.

I also have found a larger fondness for the lighter weight and thinner blades, which tend to be scarce and rare from FF. When they do arrive on shark day I'm at work and the dedicated few here are definitely in possession of faster internet connections. As such, I simply stopped purchasing them. The hunt was fun at first, but then it just got frustrating. Your prices and those of your apprentices are fair for the product you are providing. Being a city guy I seldom get the use I would like from the knives and I don't care for safe queens.
I carried my "celeste" by Forty Point more than anything due largely to it's size and that Judy made it custom for me.

It also may have been my luck, but all the blades I purchased came with an inadequate edge and I had to redo them all. I have to consider that as well when it comes to where I spend my money. Do I spend $300+ for a knife i can rarely carry and plan to put a couple hours of work into, or do I spend less for a better role player that I will also have to spend time on. Just my opinion and my experience and it's not meant as an insult to quality or anything and most people are just fine with the performance. Again, I do think FF knives are some of the finest for fit and finish you will find on the market, bar none.

I believe the demographic is changing dramatically and so is the market. My brother is 7 years younger than me and beats his knives into the ground or buys brands I won't touch due to cost and either throws them out or gives them to me to restore. From what I know, part of the reason for a the shift to more premium steels is to address a deficiency of skills and interest in the consumer market...they can't sharpen knives anymore. I train a lot of engineers and the old skills and trades just don't interest them. My mother-in-law was recently trying to explain to my wife that she heard of a kitchen knife that is self sharpening for life and she was interested in it...mull that one over. My wife quickly said, "I don't worry about that, I have a husband who loves knives and they are always sharp." I can tell you when you take an engineer and pile on a deep love of knives you get someone who looks at every detail of a knife to understand how it came to be: lines, materials, size, grind...I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But what I am saying is it's rare; beyond the forum membership. I come on most Fridays late in the day, just to appreciate the designs and the work, wishing I could partake. Sadly, it just isn't in the cards it seems.

I really liked the idea where you started taking your production models and upgrading them to with your custom scales. Genius. Availability became an issue for me. One or two here and there and the scales were seldom to my taste, when they were, poof to the internet connection constraints and another happy shark who agreed with me. I still can't get into the large black bolsters...

I can only hope you find some value in these remarks. I created such a lengthy post out of respect for what you bring to the knife world and my appreciation for getting to be a part of it. I continue to be a supporter of your company. Thank you.

Great post. Thanks you for your support. I love Judy's knives.

 

[grogimus]

I really liked the idea where you started taking your production models and upgrading them to with your custom scales. Genius. Availability became an issue for me. One or two here and there and the scales were seldom to my taste, when they were, poof to the internet connection constraints and another happy shark who agreed with me. I still can't get into the large black bolsters...

I don't mean to dismiss all the other great points in this post, but I really liked this part. Depending on the number of production knives out there this could be a worthwhile investment. I don't dislike the scales at all on my production Bushfinger or Camp knife but I'd love something as simple as two toned micarta to choose from. Shadetree options would be fabulous also. I know there are people who can do a 3d model and turn out their own scales but I'd much rather get them direct. Also regarding the production knives maybe it would be worthwhile to determine what price would be reasonable for you to offer a hidden lanyard mod to production knives that came out prior to the Duke? I have a feeling my drill press would cry, smoke, then revert spectacularly to it's base components if I tried to drill hardened 3v.

I don't know that I would invest much into either of these initially but they may be worth a trial run. Myself, currently I'm just holding out for the right Recluse to come along. Such a great knife.

 

[Szilard]

I like Andy himself, the company, the crew, what he stands for, and how he has behaved in every instance that I've seen. I especially like the knives which is why I'm here and believe that he puts out some of the best product out there. I've owned countless different makers and he is on a very short list of makers in terms of the performance of his knives. The designs are fantastic and the execution is beautiful. We all know this. Since this thread seems to have some feedback here is my constructive offering.

I own a production Fiddleback because it's accessible. I purchased a Wasp through a dealer and an Asp through a private seller. This puts me as a relatively small purchaser in the greater scheme of some customers here, but I still am certainly more in the knife market than most. The Fiddleback Friday format somewhat prevents me from participating at a direct level simply because I am busy. As someone who has their own business I really appreciate the choices that were made along the way that led to this format - I have no problem with it despite the fact that it limits me. But it also means that there are knives that I want and would buy, but more or less have very little chance of ever owning.

If I could make direct orders - I would. I will still support and speak highly of Fiddleback forge regardless. I don't intend this as anything other than information, although I'm sure everyone is well aware this is the case. I do think there are plenty of people who this also applies to.

 

[Fiddleback]

I don't mean to dismiss all the other great points in this post, but I really liked this part. Depending on the number of production knives out there this could be a worthwhile investment. I don't dislike the scales at all on my production Bushfinger or Camp knife but I'd love something as simple as two toned micarta to choose from. Shadetree options would be fabulous also. I know there are people who can do a 3d model and turn out their own scales but I'd much rather get them direct. Also regarding the production knives maybe it would be worthwhile to determine what price would be reasonable for you to offer a hidden lanyard mod to production knives that came out prior to the Duke? I have a feeling my drill press would cry, smoke, then revert spectacularly to it's base components if I tried to drill hardened 3v.

I don't know that I would invest much into either of these initially but they may be worth a trial run. Myself, currently I'm just holding out for the right Recluse to come along. Such a great knife.

Every once in a while we put a custom handle on one of the production blades. We may one day offer replacement scales, but right now we do not. They would have to be fit to the tang, IE, they are just a bit oversized and we have to grind them down to the tang. So its a bit much for a customer to do on their own.

If I could make direct orders - I would. I will still support and speak highly of Fiddleback forge regardless. I don't intend this as anything other than information, although I'm sure everyone is well aware this is the case. I do think there are plenty of people who this also applies to.

Man, thanks for the post. You should call the shop. You get to talk to Phillip, plus, you can pick from a wide variety of knives. We have lots in stock.

 

[grogimus]

Spoken with the benefit of a long night's drinking, which I fear you have been denied, good on you. I feel I am chock full of all that useless information from the mouth of the person who's been drinking all night and can cure all the world's ills tempered with the sad "drank myself sober" realization that it is all bullshit. It's a sad world to sober up to but I think the after Christmas hangover will hydrate itself soon enough. Viva le Forge!

 

[xxkcxx]

😐😐😐😮😐

 

[Kirkwood]

Andy, keep on keeping on brother. You and the crew do a fantastic job making great tools, providing excellent customer service, and listening to your customers' concerns.

This forum is a great place to learn and have fun, despite what you may be hearing in private gossip.

Reading through this thread, it seems to also have taken a turn into suggestions and ideas. Well here's one more. Not sure if it was mentioned previously. It would be a big task and more than Phillip could handle by himself with his other duties. But if you could add a web store of "currently available" knives (with pics and specs) to your website, that may help some people decide to make a purchase. It sounds like you have enough reserve trays that you could build a decent sized web store and still have reserves for holiday and show weeks. It could make the process a lot easier for people who are first hearing of Fiddleback Forge and people who are hesitant to call Phillip and spend an hour asking him about specs on all the currently available knives. Just an idea.

 

[ncrockclimb]

So... Regardless of if you change anything, I will continue to be a customer. I think there are a lot of folks that feel the same way. As Krirkwood said, keep on keeping on brother!

 

[TxSportsman]

Andy, keep on keeping on brother. You and the crew do a fantastic job making great tools, providing excellent customer service, and listening to your customers' concerns.

This forum is a great place to learn and have fun, despite what you may be hearing in private gossip.

Reading through this thread, it seems to also have taken a turn into suggestions and ideas. Well here's one more. Not sure if it was mentioned previously. It would be a big task and more than Phillip could handle by himself with his other duties. But if you could add a web store of "currently available" knives (with pics and specs) to your website, that may help some people decide to make a purchase. It sounds like you have enough reserve trays that you could build a decent sized web store and still have reserves for holiday and show weeks. It could make the process a lot easier for people who are first hearing of Fiddleback Forge and people who are hesitant to call Phillip and spend an hour asking him about specs on all the currently available knives. Just an idea.

Great idea!

 

[adequacy]

I really like the initiatives to update the website. I think that's a really big thing. Especially when it comes to generating new business. I find that most people will ask me about the forge and what model will fit a certain need and size. Sometimes I mention a certain design and they can't see it on the website. So yeah, getting a centralized place for design information and photos will be a huge update for new customers in particular.

 

[Fiddleback]

Andy, keep on keeping on brother. You and the crew do a fantastic job making great tools, providing excellent customer service, and listening to your customers' concerns.

This forum is a great place to learn and have fun, despite what you may be hearing in private gossip.

Reading through this thread, it seems to also have taken a turn into suggestions and ideas. Well here's one more. Not sure if it was mentioned previously. It would be a big task and more than Phillip could handle by himself with his other duties. But if you could add a web store of "currently available" knives (with pics and specs) to your website, that may help some people decide to make a purchase. It sounds like you have enough reserve trays that you could build a decent sized web store and still have reserves for holiday and show weeks. It could make the process a lot easier for people who are first hearing of Fiddleback Forge and people who are hesitant to call Phillip and spend an hour asking him about specs on all the currently available knives. Just an idea.

Man, thanks. Maybe we could have an inventory thread. I'll look into that.

So... Regardless of if you change anything, I will continue to be a customer. I think there are a lot of folks that feel the same way. As Krirkwood said, keep on keeping on brother!

Thanks K. Thats a long time customer right there. Much appreciated my friend.

I really like the initiatives to update the website. I think that's a really big thing. Especially when it comes to generating new business. I find that most people will ask me about the forge and what model will fit a certain need and size. Sometimes I mention a certain design and they can't see it on the website. So yeah, getting a centralized place for design information and photos will be a huge update for new customers in particular.

We're going to work on that. Thanks!

 

[Tim the Wizard]

If only Vance were a southern girl with a Louisiana accent... there is a knife shop out there that uses this CS model to great effect. No offense Vance. I am sure you understand.

 

[SA Condor]

Hey Andy! I've never been turned away by the drama, I just chose not to participate! I've not posted much in the last half a year or so, but I've never stopped checking in on the forum. Another constant is a Fiddleback on my person. I love the knives I have from you. And I love the few that I have from your crew. There's been a lot of good encouragement and advice on this thread, especially about your website. I should take some of it myself and update my own website

I wish I lived in a demographic that could afford your knives. That however has never stopped me from showing whatever knife off that I have on my person and telling people about the awesome knife and awesome guy who made it! Fear not, I will continue to spread your brand name and that of your crew. You all are good people with superior product. Not only are your knives a pleasure to use, they're a pleasure to look at and hold! And on top of that I consider you a friend (even though we've not actually met in person) and when I use one of your knives or simply am admiring it, I think of you and your friendship and kindness to me. I'm still so stoked that I got one of your Knife Guild knives, that Hiking Buddy has a soul of it's own.

So keep your chin up! Keep fighting the fight. Make necessary adjustments and roll with the punches!