We are bored with S30V

Gaston444 said:
Cliff Stamp made a huge amount of controlled cutting, with properly randomized samples (something few other testers ever do, as far as I can tell), and found no significant difference between M390, VG-10, CPM M4, and he even found a statistically negligible difference between all those and a $1 knife in Chinese 420J(!). "Scatter" in the results was such that inevitably the 420 edged ahead on some cutting runs...


I seriously doubt all the claims of spectacular perceptible difference among steels while cutting (but I do believe it when you sharpen them of course)... I tested a $100 knife by United Cutlery (and I also got the same result with the same type of 420J steel by Chinese Master Cutlery: both 0.3-0.4% carbon), and this outperformed all my Randalls in 440B (and everything else I ever tried) by a pretty wide margin (about 2:1)... I don't claim accurate results, or that 420J is twice as good as the best 440B or C, but it certainly made me revise my view of Asian low-end 420J, since that apparently "superior" performance was achieved with a hugely easier to sharpen steel, compared to the viciously difficult to break off wire edge of 440C: While I don't believe you can tell the difference during cutting, the difference between 440C and 420J while SHARPENING is like hell and heaven.

The only way to know for sure if the performance difference during cutting is detectable is to be subjected to a true blind test... It would be quite complicated to set up, and I'll bet few would be happy with the results when it transpires everyone rated 420J as the top dog super steel (a more likely outcome than you might think).

What could easily happen is that 420J retains its initial fine edge longer, but then deteriorates WAY further than other steels at the back end of the test: That kind of extended test would be meaningless to me, because I would always keep a knife at 90% of its maximum sharpness, and would not care at all if a steel can last ten times longer at 70% or even 80% of its sharpness, since above 90% is the only relevant sharpness value to me, and it is within that 90% that the 420J might last longer than the others.

Gaston
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Stop. Just stop. I've never seen someone so adamant about trolling then you on this subject.
 
Mo2 said:
Stop. Just stop. I've never seen someone so adamant about trolling then you on this subject.
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On the plus side, the more he talks about Cliff Stamp, the more I realize the guy (Cliff) is apparently not the sharpest tool in the shed.
 
Gaston444 said:
Cliff Stamp made a huge amount of controlled cutting, with properly randomized samples (something few other testers ever do, as far as I can tell), and found no significant difference between M390, VG-10, CPM M4, and he even found a statistically negligible difference between all those and a $1 knife in Chinese 420J(!). "Scatter" in the results was such that inevitably the 420 edged ahead on some cutting runs...


I seriously doubt all the claims of spectacular perceptible difference among steels while cutting (but I do believe it when you sharpen them of course)... I tested a $100 knife by United Cutlery (and I also got the same result with the same type of 420J steel by Chinese Master Cutlery: both 0.3-0.4% carbon), and this outperformed all my Randalls in 440B (and everything else I ever tried) by a pretty wide margin (about 2:1)... I don't claim accurate results, or that 420J is twice as good as the best 440B or C, but it certainly made me revise my view of Asian low-end 420J, since that apparently "superior" performance was achieved with a hugely easier to sharpen steel, compared to the viciously difficult to break off wire edge of 440C: While I don't believe you can tell the difference during cutting, the difference between 440C and 420J while SHARPENING is like hell and heaven.

The only way to know for sure if the performance difference during cutting is detectable is to be subjected to a true blind test... It would be quite complicated to set up, and I'll bet few would be happy with the results when it transpires everyone rated 420J as the top dog super steel (a more likely outcome than you might think).

What could easily happen is that 420J retains its initial fine edge longer, but then deteriorates WAY further than other steels at the back end of the test: That kind of extended test would be meaningless to me, because I would always keep a knife at 90% of its maximum sharpness, and would not care at all if a steel can last ten times longer at 70% or even 80% of its sharpness, since above 90% is the only relevant sharpness value to me, and it is within that 90% that the 420J might last longer than the others.

Gaston
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I remembered this video, but I watched it again for confirmation. Gaston, your observations were backwards. Once “cliff” got control on the media used for the test, it became painfully obvious that the known superior steels performed way better.

Next time, make sure to watch the “whole” video.
 
Gaston444 said:
I seriously doubt all the claims of spectacular perceptible difference among steels while cutting (but I do believe it when you sharpen them of course)... I tested a $100 knife by United Cutlery (and I also got the same result with the same type of 420J steel by Chinese Master Cutlery: both 0.3-0.4% carbon), and this outperformed all my Randalls in 440B (and everything else I ever tried) by a pretty wide margin (about 2:1)... I don't claim accurate results, or that 420J is twice as good as the best 440B or C, but it certainly made me revise my view of Asian low-end 420J, since that apparently "superior" performance was achieved with a hugely easier to sharpen steel, compared to the viciously difficult to break off wire edge of 440C: While I don't believe you can tell the difference during cutting, the difference between 440C and 420J while SHARPENING is like hell and heaven.

Gaston
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I've had at least 7 different knives in 440C (older Benchmades and a Spyderco) and never had any problems at all sharpening them. In fact, 440C was a breeze to sharpen. I consider my sharpening skills as only decent, and I've never encountered a wire edge on 440C that was difficult to get rid of.

And in my uses, there IS a difference between 440C and both S30V and S35VN. IME, 440C done right is still a good steel, but it's not 'better' than the CPM steels, just different. And IME 440C does not hold an edge as long.

Jim
 
James Y said:
I've had at least 7 different knives in 440C (older Benchmades and a Spyderco) and never had any problems at all sharpening them. In fact, 440C was a breeze to sharpen. I consider my sharpening skills as only decent, and I've never encountered a wire edge on 440C that was difficult to get rid of.

And in my uses, there IS a difference between 440C and both S30V and S35VN. IME, 440C done right is still a good steel, but it's not 'better' than the CPM steels, just different. And IME 440C does not hold an edge as long.

Jim
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In my experience, the only PM steels that are easier to sharpen than 440C are S35VN and low carbide tool steels. 440C is also pretty significantly behind them all in edge retention. Gaston just hates PM steels because science is scary or something, I guess. He's been on an insane crusade against them pretty much since he started here.
 
Gaston, please
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I own a few knives made of S30v steel and it seems to be decent stuff but, when I am looking at buying a new knife and see S30v or 154cm I ask myself why did the manufacturer cut cost and not choose S35vn or CPM 154? Especially if the knife retails for over $125-150.
 
dkb45 said:
At my job, with the amount of cardboard I cut, 440C barely lasts. I've dulled Maxamet moderately. 420J2 would last a box or two. If you can't tell a different between any super steel and 420J2, your senses are obviously nonexistent, and any opinion you hold is highly suspect... or you direly need experience sharpening knives, because you are making edges so bad that super steels are useless. A sharp edge cuts, super steels hold a sharp edge almost infinitely longer than 420J2 could ever hope to.

It's like comparing a Ferrari and a Yugo, if you can't tell a difference your opinions on the topic are completely irrelevant.
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Hes only needed to use a knife 5 times. So his experience is limited. Not his fault.

I for sure would pick M4 over S30V for edge holding purposes. Same with Cru-Wear and Zwear.

Im also sure that Z-finit/LC200N would hold an edge better than the 420J and 440B or whatever cheap steel tickles his fancy. And be tougher and more stain resistant.
 
Gaston444 said:
Cliff Stamp made a huge amount of controlled cutting, with properly randomized samples (something few other testers ever do, as far as I can tell), and found no significant difference between M390, VG-10, CPM M4, and he even found a statistically negligible difference between all those and a $1 knife in Chinese 420J(!). "Scatter" in the results was such that inevitably the 420 edged ahead on some cutting runs...

I seriously doubt all the claims of spectacular perceptible difference among steels while cutting (but I do believe it when you sharpen them of course)... I tested a $100 knife by United Cutlery (and I also got the same result with the same type of 420J steel by Chinese Master Cutlery: both 0.3-0.4% carbon), and this outperformed all my Randalls in 440B (and everything else I ever tried) by a pretty wide margin (about 2:1)... I don't claim accurate results, or that 420J is twice as good as the best 440B or C, but it certainly made me revise my view of Asian low-end 420J, since that apparently "superior" performance was achieved with a hugely easier to sharpen steel, compared to the viciously difficult to break off wire edge of 440C: While I don't believe you can tell the difference during cutting, the difference between 440C and 420J while SHARPENING is like hell and heaven.

The only way to know for sure if the performance difference during cutting is detectable is to be subjected to a true blind test... It would be quite complicated to set up, and I'll bet few would be happy with the results when it transpires everyone rated 420J as the top dog super steel (a more likely outcome than you might think).

What could easily happen is that 420J retains its initial fine edge longer, but then deteriorates WAY further than other steels at the back end of the test: That kind of extended test would be meaningless to me, because I would always keep a knife at 90% of its maximum sharpness, and would not care at all if a steel can last ten times longer at 70% or even 80% of its sharpness, since above 90% is the only relevant sharpness value to me, and it is within that 90% that the 420J might last longer than the others.

Gaston
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I watched the video. Cliff Stamp was talking about statistical analysis. The point he made was that the material being cut caused a greater variance than the type of steel being used. So if you are looking at differences in steel type then you either need to decrease cutting media variability in order to limit variation to the experimental variable, otherwise you would have to increase your sample size to average out the effect of variable cutting media.
 
I'm not bored with S30V. Most of my stuff is VG10, 154 CM, or D2. I'm very happy with S30V. I don't see M4, Maxamet, 3V, etc in my future anytime soon. I'm too ... frugal ... to drop that kind of $ on a blade.
 
sabre cat said:
I own a few knives made of S30v steel and it seems to be decent stuff but, when I am looking at buying a new knife and see S30v or 154cm I ask myself why did the manufacturer cut cost and not choose S35vn or CPM 154? Especially if the knife retails for over $125-150.
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You've got it backwards. CPM154 is cheaper and easier to machine than S30V. S35VN is around the same price and is easier to machine than S30V. Of the three the most expensive to use is S30V. S35VN was created to be easier to machine and thus cheaper for manufacturers to use than S30V. It's not an upgrade despite so many people thinking it.
 
I like S30V. It gets the job done. If I want a better performing steel, I buy a sprint or dealer exclusive.
 
Fanglekai said:
You've got it backwards. CPM154 is cheaper and easier to machine than S30V. S35VN is around the same price and is easier to machine than S30V. Of the three the most expensive to use is S30V. S35VN was created to be easier to machine and thus cheaper for manufacturers to use than S30V. It's not an upgrade despite so many people thinking it.
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They also dropped the wear resistance for increased toughness, ease of sharpening, more corrioson resistance, and custom knife makers can finish it better.

They wanted to make S35VN a more all around steel.

I think at the time s30v was getting alot of complaints.

I feel S35VN was damage control.

I feel the knife industry has learned alot and figured out how to mass produce S30v with a better heat treatment over the past 10 years , So I don't see S35VN as an upgrade.
I'd prefer to get more wear resistance.
The edge on s30v is more aggressive, seems to hold that "bite" a bit longer.
 
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After a while knife users or collectors end up like dogs chasing their tails when it comes to blade steel. I remember when Spyderco came in GIN-1 or AUS-8 and ATS-34 was all the rage. I like up to date steel, but cannot reject a steel I used for ten years because now there is an improved version.
 
Having had pretty decent experience with both S30V and S35VN, I will say that S30V does have a but more edge retention, but is significantly harder to sharpen and is a much more fickle mistress, S30V has performed miserably with me in the past until I learned it responds very well to a full diamond progression, using that it's a properly good steel, but without it the razor edge was gone with harsh language or a strong breeze (more than once I literally had it lose the razor edge after a few cuts into cardboard, like less than 10). S35VN responds well to diamonds but isn't nearly as picky for sharpening, I've gotten a little better performance with a full diamond progression, but not using all diamond doesn't make the steel turn to crap.
 
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