We are bored with S30V

tyyreaun said:
Can't believe this thread is still alive. Some thoughts:
  • General consensus is that S35VN is as good or better than S30V. Some people say there's no difference, but I haven't heard anyone ever say they prefer S30V over S35VN
  • Current prices have S35VN cost <10% more than S30V - for example, when looking at stock of similar size on Alpha Knife Supply.
  • I would assume Crucible produces much more S30V than S35VN, because of how much it supplies to Spyderco, Benchmade, etc. That difference in quantity could explain the 10% price difference
Given that, I'm actually somewhat surprised Crucible still produces both alloys, and hasn't canceled S30V production in favor of focusing on S35VN. Is there anyone out there actually asking for S30V over S35VN, for any reason other than the minimal cost difference? Is it easier to heat treat or something?
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I like your line of thinking here.
 
The question I get most about knife steels is " Whats new ?". S30V is as good today as it was when first introduced back in 2001. I was also there when CRK wanted a next generation S30V. CRK was looking for something a bit tougher with the same or better corrosion resistance and we could sacrifice a little edge holding. We wanted to call it S25V but CRK being a marketing genius said we cannot go down in number we have to go up - hence S35VN.

Back to the "Whats new?". Simply give S30V a new name and it would be good for another 17 years. These steels do not simply get worse with time ! S30V is still one of the best all around knife steels out there today !

Later
 
Why be bored with any blade steel, be it a 10xx carbon steel or the last "super steel" "flavor of the month"? (Or is it "flavor of the week"? :)

I may be in the minority, but when I buy a knife, I don't care what the blade steel is, so long as it is easy to sharpen without diamond stones that I may not (and probably won't) have with me out in the field.

Sorry, but I don't see "the latest and greatest" blade steel as a "status symbol" that I need (or want) to aspire to.

I've never gotten into a discussion at work, in a fishing and/or hunting camp, or anywhere else in "real life" about blade steel, nor did anyone ever brag about what blade steel their knife had/has.
Blade steel was always a non issue.
Unlike what rifle (brand and model), calibure, (or shotgun, number of barrels (if two barrels what orientation) action, and 10 vs 12 vs 20 gauge) what scope (brand and model) or what rod and reel (brands and models) rod brand, material, and length, artificial lures, line (monofilament vs braid/super braid) brands, line test, lures/jigs/plastic worms ...
I've never been to a flyfishing camp, (I've never been flyfishing, and I never learned how.) but I would guess the tackle and fly discussions there would be even more ... "intense"(?) ..."lively"(?) ... than at any other fishing camp. :)

FWIW I don't use (or want) the "latest and greatest" rods and reels, either. I'm quite happy with the Mitchell 300 and 302 reels I have that were made in the 1960's and 1970's. They may be "obsolete" and not have 27 (or more) bearings (they actually use bushings and have one bearing,) and they don't have "instant anti-reverse". However, they catch just as many fish as "the latest and greatest" do. Presuming I do my part, the fish are hungry, and they are at the same location I am, of course. :)
 
S30v is ok. I can speak for myself though when I say I am kind of disappointed that it remains the standard for Spydie and BM when nearly everyone else has switched to s35vn as standard.

Honestly I like 154cm more anyway and would love to see CPM154 become more commonly used. Also the s30v on some of my knives seems chippy, especially in knives which are very thin behind the edge like the Yojimbo2 or Nilakka.
 
I recently ordered a G10 Native 5 in S35VN, but apparently the supply of those has run out, because instead I received one of the newest, linerless G10 Native 5's in S30V. TBH, at first I was a bit disappointed, as I really like S35VN, but I've had pretty good luck with my S30V knives over the past 15.5 years. I also find it pretty easy to resharpen with my OK sharpening skills. So I'm quite happy with the knife.

When I was a kid, as far as I knew, there was only carbon and stainless. And my favorite stainless pocketknives were SAKs. After all these years, I STILL like SAK steel and have never felt bored with it.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, in 10 years' time (or less), I'm betting many forum members will be bored to tears with M390, S110V, etc., and say they are underperforming steels. But the fact is, they'll still be the same steels they are today. Your typical knife user who doesn't frequent knife forums and isn't into all the metallurgy and such probably couldn't tell the difference between S30V and any other reasonably easy to resharpen "super" steel.

Jim
 
Mo2 said:
there isn't even a huge difference between s30v and s35vn. some niobium which helps chipping. else edge retention are near the same.

most people wouldn't even tell the difference. all you see is the designation.
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I think people can tell is if it is stainless or not. Anything more becomes doubtful. But they are deeply convinced otherwise.

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
I think people can tell is if it is stainless or not. Anything more becomes doubtful. But they are deeply convinced otherwise.

Gaston
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Well, I agree to your thoughts but only to the general population who may only have a knife or two that differ in steel.

The people who use and sharpen several different steel types will find different traits of the different steel types. Even then there is no real quantification of edge retention for most of the population.

I mean I can tell m390 lasts longer than VG10... But by what amount I cannot say... For that we have back yard science that says, m390 lasts some 3 times or longer than VG10 in cut tests across the board. Vg10 is easy to sharpen than m390. Vg10 tends to chip more than m390. Both have low toughness at high rockwell. Etc.
 
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Gaston444 said:
I think people can tell is if it is stainless or not. Anything more becomes doubtful. But they are deeply convinced otherwise.

Gaston
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I can actually tell a difference. If both knives are sharpened by diamonds but stropped with corundum then you can tell S30V by the immediate loss of shaving edge. If you strop both with diamonds then you can tell S30V by the notedly higher razor edge retention then. It's a very peculiar steel.
 
I get a bit tentative with S30V when approaching $200. On the other hand i have some great knives with S30V. I have a David Mosier in S30V that out performs most knives I have. I think a lot has to do with the HT.

I would love to see more M4 ( my favorite steel)
 
The nerve that S30V was developed for the cutlery industry and not for tool steels, aerospace, or the medical field is ludicrous. And by well known makers working with Crucible to have a steel specifically for knives. What were these guys thinking? Evidently they didn’t watch many YouTube videos back then. Don’t they know that they’re not the experts.
I just hope this S30V bubble that everyone is bored with bursts in the next 20 years or so. ;)
In the meantime, I guess I’ll have to live with it. I mean it can only be the flavor of the month for so long right ?
Has nothing to do with it being a good, user friendly, corrosion resistant performing steel.
 
Ajack60 said:
The nerve that S30V was developed for the cutlery industry and not for tool steels, aerospace, or the medical field is ludicrous. And by well known makers working with Crucible to have a steel specifically for knives. What were these guys thinking? Evidently they didn’t watch many YouTube videos back then. Don’t they know that they’re not the experts.
I just hope this S30V bubble that everyone is bored with bursts in the next 20 years or so. ;)
In the meantime, I guess I’ll have to live with it. I mean it can only be the flavor of the month for so long right ?
Has nothing to do with it being a good, user friendly, corrosion resistant performing steel.
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https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-true-history-of-s30v-development.1015831/

Its used for all types of industries but developed with Chris reeves for knives.
 
P2P said:
I like your line of thinking here.
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I thought we'd see a decrease in S30-V when S35-VN started to take off. Just the opposite. We started to sell more S30-V and we now currently produce similar amounts of S30-V and S35-VN. There are no plans to discontinue any knife grades in the CPM lineup. Thank you to everyone for your support.
 
Mo2 said:
Well, I agree to your thoughts but only to the general population who may only have a knife or two that differ in steel.

The people who use and sharpen several different steel types will find different traits of the different steel types. Even then there is no real quantification of edge retention for most of the population.

I mean I can tell m390 lasts longer than VG10... But by what amount I cannot say... For that we have back yard science that says, m390 lasts some 3 times or longer than VG10 in cut tests across the board. Vg10 is easy to sharpen than m390. Vg10 tends to chip more than m390. Both have low toughness at high rockwell. Etc.
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Cliff Stamp made a huge amount of controlled cutting, with properly randomized samples (something few other testers ever do, as far as I can tell), and found no significant difference between M390, VG-10, CPM M4, and he even found a statistically negligible difference between all those and a $1 knife in Chinese 420J(!). "Scatter" in the results was such that inevitably the 420 edged ahead on some cutting runs...


I seriously doubt all the claims of spectacular perceptible difference among steels while cutting (but I do believe it when you sharpen them of course)... I tested a $100 knife by United Cutlery (and I also got the same result with the same type of 420J steel by Chinese Master Cutlery: both 0.3-0.4% carbon), and this outperformed all my Randalls in 440B (and everything else I ever tried) by a pretty wide margin (about 2:1)... I don't claim accurate results, or that 420J is twice as good as the best 440B or C, but it certainly made me revise my view of Asian low-end 420J, since that apparently "superior" performance was achieved with a hugely easier to sharpen steel, compared to the viciously difficult to break off wire edge of 440C: While I don't believe you can tell the difference during cutting, the difference between 440C and 420J while SHARPENING is like hell and heaven.

The only way to know for sure if the performance difference during cutting is detectable is to be subjected to a true blind test... It would be quite complicated to set up, and I'll bet few would be happy with the results when it transpires everyone rated 420J as the top dog super steel (a more likely outcome than you might think).

What could easily happen is that 420J retains its initial fine edge longer, but then deteriorates WAY further than other steels at the back end of the test: That kind of extended test would be meaningless to me, because I would always keep a knife at 90% of its maximum sharpness, and would not care at all if a steel can last ten times longer at 70% or even 80% of its sharpness, since above 90% is the only relevant sharpness value to me, and it is within that 90% that the 420J might last longer than the others.

Gaston
 
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Cough, cough, cough....I have knives in S30V and S35V and love 'em. You know what? I still love my Endura in ATS 55. Sue me.
 
Gaston444 said:
Cliff Stamp made a huge amount of controlled cutting, with properly randomized samples (something few other testers ever do, as far as I can tell), and found no significant difference between M390, VG-10, CPM M4, and he even found a statistically negligible difference between all those and a $1 knife in Chinese 420J(!). "Scatter" in the results was such that inevitably the 420 edged ahead on some cutting runs...


I seriously doubt all the claims of spectacular perceptible difference among steels while cutting (but I do believe it when you sharpen them of course)... I tested a $100 knife by United Cutlery (and I also got the same result with the same type of 420J steel by Chinese Master Cutlery: both 0.3-0.4% carbon), and this outperformed all my Randalls in 440B (and everything else I ever tried) by a pretty wide margin (about 2:1)... I don't claim accurate results, or that 420J is twice as good as the best 440B or C, but it certainly made me revise my view of Asian low-end 420J, since that apparently "superior" performance was achieved with a hugely easier to sharpen steel, compared to the viciously difficult to break off wire edge of 440C: While I don't believe you can tell the difference during cutting, the difference between 440C and 420J while SHARPENING is like hell and heaven.

The only way to know for sure if the performance difference during cutting is detectable is to be subjected to a true blind test... It would be quite complicated to set up, and I'll bet few would be happy with the results when it transpires everyone rated 420J as the top dog super steel (a more likely outcome than you might think).

What could easily happen is that 420J retains its initial fine edge longer, but then deteriorates WAY further than other steels at the back end of the test: That kind of extended test would be meaningless to me, because I would always keep a knife at 90% of its maximum sharpness, and would not care at all if a steel can last ten times longer at 70% or even 80% of its sharpness, since above 90% is the only relevant sharpness value to me, and it is within that 90% that the 420J might last longer than the others.

Gaston
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At my job, with the amount of cardboard I cut, 440C barely lasts. I've dulled Maxamet moderately. 420J2 would last a box or two. If you can't tell a different between any super steel and 420J2, your senses are obviously nonexistent, and any opinion you hold is highly suspect... or you direly need experience sharpening knives, because you are making edges so bad that super steels are useless. A sharp edge cuts, super steels hold a sharp edge almost infinitely longer than 420J2 could ever hope to.

It's like comparing a Ferrari and a Yugo, if you can't tell a difference your opinions on the topic are completely irrelevant.
 
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