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tattooedfreak said:
Patrice, the main rules are the same no matter what country you are from, it all depends on what you are doing with it. http://www.canadianivory.com/ has the base rules as well as rules that apply to Canada. I have tried to contact them to get some ivory but they don't reply to my emails. I don't know if I get sent to spam or what.
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Ron at canadianivory.com has kind of slowed down quite a bit. I'm not sure what's going on but I've heard the same thing from other people.
 
You can not legally transport between Canada and the USA or the USA to Canada for your own use or for reuse of any kind any of the water animals ivory or parts thereof even if you have all the information needed to own in that country. That will include walrus no matter the age, narwhale, whale and elephant. It is illegal to place these items on a knife and ship or carry into the other country. Mammoth tooth, bone and ivory can all be legally transported, sold and used between Canada and the USA You can buy legally in Canada these items for use here. The elephant ivory is the only one requiring the documents. Frank
 
Actually, that is not true. There is no such thing as "antique" elephant ivory in the UK and much of the EU if you change its form in any way. That means if have a 150 year old peice, you can't make anything oth of ti. As a matter of fact, you arguably can't even mess with it at all. The famous London barber shop George Trumper got fined a few years back for like 20,000 pounds for taking some old ivory handled shaving gear and updating it.
tattooedfreak said:
Patrice, the main rules are the same no matter what country you are from, it all depends on what you are doing with it. http://www.canadianivory.com/ has the base rules as well as rules that apply to Canada. I have tried to contact them to get some ivory but they don't reply to my emails. I don't know if I get sent to spam or what.
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Forget about that company, Joe. If they do reply they only have stories to tell. I believe they are only interested in selling the skeleton remains of dinasaurs and such. Frank
 
Thanks Mark and Frank. If confiscating the item is the only result I might do like you suggested Mark and hope that it goes through. Funny thing, my Dad went through the border with 2 whale ribs about 4 feet long some years ago. And then realized a friend in Maine wanted them so he brought them back. :o I would not try it with an expensive piece of ivory but for something found on the beach, not much to loose. I rarely find some but you never know.
 
And, Pat, what if they decide to make an example of you and charge you? Then the real "expense" is felt. Frank
 
Frank Niro said:
And, Pat, what if they decide to make an example of you and charge you? Then the real "expense" is felt. Frank
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I can't say whats going on in Canada but I know they're doing exactly that, here in the U.S.. And the worst part of it is that they are using downright entrapment to do it. They know that you will have to plead guilty or spend $$$$ to fight it. If its too good to be true, you better pass. Be careful what you buy and who you buy it from.
 
Frank Niro said:
And, Pat, what if they decide to make an example of you and charge you? Then the real "expense" is felt. Frank
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You never know what someone at the border is going to do, but generally if you are not trying to smuggle something and you declare it when you go through, they decide if you can keep it or not. On the other hand if you try to hide it, don't declare it and then they find it, there could be some trouble. The US and Canada do have a reciprocal agreement that allows citizens to bring small amounts of regulated items back and forth through the border as personal items, without a CITES permit. For instance, ivory jewelry or a wolf ruff on a coat. Border agents are individuals and each one may treat situations differently. I call customs agents and US F&W agents all the time to make sure what I want to do is the right thing to do. Sometimes I get people that try to help me, other times it seems I get people that just assume I am trying to find a way to get around the law and answers to the question "what is legal" are met with suspicion.

It also seems to me that wildlife officials don't get promoted by preventing violations, they get promotions for making arrests. So there is no incentive for them to help me do the right thing, only to catch me doing the wrong thing. For that reason, I have found it difficult at times to find out just exactly what the right thing to do is.

It's a problem, I get a lot of satisfaction from making things from the earth (and not a lot of riches, the sheet rock in my shop is still not taped and painted) but it gets harder to do all the time. It will be a sad day when everything we make is artificial.

Early on, I naively thought that wildlife officials were there to protect wildlife and help me follow the rules enacted to do that, but we see examples where it is easy to see that these two things are not the priority, catching people doing the wrong thing is more important than helping them do the right thing. I do know some fine officials but it has not been easy, I have tried to earn a rapport with them so that they know when I ask a question it is so I know how to follow the law and not get around it.

I will continue to learn the laws, (I have even hired lawyers to help me understand them, though I never really HAD to) follow them and help others do the same but it can be difficult, I learn new things all the time. Policies change, they differ from agency to agency, and agent to agent.

Good luck, stay out of trouble, and don’t do anything dumb.
 
Mark: Generally speaking is this then correct?:

1. The easiest way to determine fossil walrus is by color....if it has color it is old...if not beware..
2. The only way to determine the age of elephant ivory is to have paperwork.
3. Mammoth speaks for itself as Schreger lines are different than elephant.
4. Very difficult to determine difference between Stellars' and whale bone so...beware....... whalebone is out and Stellars' is OK....if you can tell the difference.
5. Balleen is out....no go.
6. Narwhal?
7. Whale teeth....NO!
8. Sambar stag .....fine


What else generally? Thank you and realize you are not a F&W guy not a lawyer...thank god..... Just general questions if you have an opinion.

John Lloyd
 
darrin sanders said:
I can't say whats going on in Canada but I know they're doing exactly that, here in the U.S.. And the worst part of it is that they are using downright entrapment to do it. They know that you will have to plead guilty or spend $$$$ to fight it. If its too good to be true, you better pass. Be careful what you buy and who you buy it from.
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Hi Darren, It's easy to clame "entrapment" but of the three members that have been regulars on this forum, that got into trouble, they all new what was the right thing and they did the other thing. We have spoken about this stuff a lot on here and there was no "grey area" where they were concerned. I say this at the risk of losing some friends here and maybe some customers. If you know what you are buying, and what the laws are, you don't have to know who you are buying it from. You are right, if it is too good to be true it probably is, and none of it is worth it.
 
John L said:
Mark: Generally speaking is this then correct?:

1. The easiest way to determine fossil walrus is by color....if it has color it is old...if not beware..
2. The only way to determine the age of elephant ivory is to have paperwork.
3. Mammoth speaks for itself as Schreger lines are different than elephant.
4. Very difficult to determine difference between Stellars' and whale bone so...beware....... whalebone is out and Stellars' is OK....if you can tell the difference.
5. Balleen is out....no go.
6. Narwhal?
7. Whale teeth....NO!
8. Sambar stag .....fine


What else generally? Thank you and realize you are not a F&W guy not a lawyer...thank god..... Just general questions if you have an opinion.

John Lloyd
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Hi John, Yes first the disclaimer, I am not a lawyer nor am I a F&W guy. I have studied this stuff some.

No.1 False, some inscrutable people have done things to fresh (white) ivory to make it easier to sell and more expensive. You have to be sure it is authentic color. On the other hand, some white ivory is "ancient" or pre-act, both are legal but you have to have your ducks in a row to use it. If you're not sure, pass on it.

No.2 I am not an expert on elephant ivory but I have bought some, I would say you are correct, but I would make sure that the paperwork was very good. For instance, I bought some elephant ivory that had with it the guys hunting records, pictures of him with it and taxidermy paperwork with dates.

No.3 Mammoth ivory is the easiest to defend, not much of it can be confused with elephant, and you are right, we have a test.

No.4 Yes, old whale bone is OK, but it can't be traded across state lines, sea cow is OK but it's hard to distinguish from whale bone. There are biologists right now trying to find a test to help distinguish whale from sea cow. It all seems like a lot of trouble to go through to me, for that reason I have stopped dealing in both of these materials, it ain't worth it.

No.5 Baleen is out because baleen decomposes comparatively fast in the ground, it would be very hard to demonstrate that a particular piece of baleen is pre-act, I would hate to be the one that had to defend that claim. A native person could make knives all day with it and sell them. It would be cool to see some skrimmed-up.

No.6 There is some legal pre-act narwhal, but it's rare. Boone Trading occasionally has some, they work very hard to get the exotic stuff and document it correctly. To me the stuff is not particularly attractive, it seems well suited to daggers, but not much else. The color, like white walrus ivory, to me is boring. Now show me a piece of ancient narwhal and I would sit up and take notice.

No.7 There are some documented pre-act whale teeth around but they are worth more as what they already are, than raw material for a knife. They are not particularly well suited to knife making. Again, the color doesn't excite me personally; there are lots of white ivory alternatives with less hassle involved if you wanted white ivory.

No.8 Sambar stag is completely fine, you know anybody with some? :D:D
 
That is a good point Frank. I think what I'll do is stop at the Canadian Border on my way there and ask them what they allow through. Thanks for the heads up and Darrin and Mark for the additional warnings.
 
John L said:
Mark: Generally speaking is this then correct?:

1. The easiest way to determine fossil walrus is by color....if it has color it is old...if not beware..
2. The only way to determine the age of elephant ivory is to have paperwork.
3. Mammoth speaks for itself as Schreger lines are different than elephant.
4. Very difficult to determine difference between Stellars' and whale bone so...beware....... whalebone is out and Stellars' is OK....if you can tell the difference.
5. Balleen is out....no go.
6. Narwhal?
7. Whale teeth....NO!
8. Sambar stag .....fine

What else generally? Thank you and realize you are not a F&W guy not a lawyer...thank god..... Just general questions if you have an opinion.

John Lloyd
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Regarding #8. If you bring or send sambar stag across the border, you must have the proper paperwork and inspections. If you don't have everything in order you will get to spend time in federal court, and/or pay fines and court costs, and/or lawyer fees, and/or spend time in jail.

If you want a example of how serious the government is, look at Gibson guitars and the violations of the Lacey Act. There are many more less publicized examples. Be very careful when shipping natural materials across borders.
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
Regarding #8. If you bring or send sambar stag across the border, you must have the proper paperwork and inspections. If you don't have everything in order you will get to spend time in federal court, and/or pay fines and court costs, and/or lawyer fees, and/or spend time in jail.

If you want a example of how serious the government is, look at Gibson guitars and the violations of the Lacey Act. There are many more less publicized examples. Be very careful when shipping natural materials across borders.
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Very good, thanks. It's important to note that all of my answers to these questions were regerding materials already in the US. It's a different ball of wax completely if you are bringing it in or sending it out.
 
Thanks for the info Mark.

I'm a little confused about what got this started though... did these 3 guys that got in trouble do something here on BF? I'm not wanting to get into anybody's business. I just want to make sure I don't do whatever it was.

I have a piece of Stellar Sea Cow that I bought about 14 years that I was just thinking about using. Now I'm nervous about it. I bought it from a vendor at a show and the extent of my paperwork is a little sticker that says "stellar sea cow" I don't think that's technically considered legal documentation. :foot: ;)
 
NickWheeler said:
Thanks for the info Mark.

I'm a little confused about what got this started though... did these 3 guys that got in trouble do something here on BF? I'm not wanting to get into anybody's business. I just want to make sure I don't do whatever it was.

I have a piece of Stellar Sea Cow that I bought about 14 years that I was just thinking about using. Now I'm nervous about it. I bought it from a vendor at a show and the extent of my paperwork is a little sticker that says "stellar sea cow" I don't think that's technically considered legal documentation. :foot: ;)
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The people that got in trouble were doing the wrong thing, they also happened to be regulars here. The reason I bring it up here is because; 1. We have gotten to know them, and it's sad to see people we know get themselves in trouble, especially since we have talked about these things extensively here. And 2. I bring it up to remind people that they need to be careful, and not get greedy or reckless.

I'm sure your Steller sea cow is fine, especially since you have had it for so long. I have not heard of any knife makers getting into trouble using material that was sold to them as sea cow. I quit dealing with it because I was having to take my suppliers word for it that it was sea cow, other than that, I had no way to assure my customers that it was in fact sea cow. Part of my gaurantee, when I sell stuff is that it is legal, if I don't know for sure, I could not make the guarantee.

At this time the only way to tell for sure if a particular piece of rib bone is sea cow and not whale is if it was found associated with a sea cow skull. Since I am in the materials business, I would be held to I higher degree of responsibility than the guy I sold the material to.

In general, biologists agree that sea cow rib bone will be somewhat triangular in cross-section and somewhat solid. Definately not flat and not pithy. So if it is triangular and fairly solid, it has a higher chance of being sea cow, but it could be whale. If it is oval, flat or pithy it's probably not sea cow. Your piece should only have cost you about $30.00 fourteen years ago, assuming it was a one-handle section, so it wouldn't cost you much to let it go. You could use it on a personal knife or give it to some one who could use it on a personal knife.

My point is, at the end of the day, we are just making knives, and really, all the complications just don't seem worth it for just a knife, even a really cool knife.
 
That's pretty scarey! Over the decades I have purchased several pieces secondhand and none of them have any paperwork. :eek:
 
Mark Knapp said:
No.3 Mammoth ivory is the easiest to defend, not much of it can be confused with elephant, and you are right, we have a test.
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Why not be more descriptive so we know ?

And I have to say I'm not getting the big picture, I'd appreciate it if you spelt that out too.


When you say losing members, they died ?, were killed by customs agents, got thrown in jail in decrepit third world prison, deported to a decrepit third world, let their Bladeforums membership expire ?

why or how ?

If you're going to bring it up, why don't you spell it out ?
 
I kind of thought that too, but I'm sure it's just out of respect for those affected.

Wondering what exactly happened was really eating at me so I used some google-fu. What I saw was hefty fines and probation.
 
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