We are losing members of our community

12345678910 said:
If you're going to bring it up, why don't you spell it out ?
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Because these guys are real folks that happen to be friends of ours both on and off the forum. And they already feel bad enough for having gotten tangled up in this crap. Taking responsibility for your behavior and having some of your worst moments of 2012 drug up again to satisfy idle curiosities are two different things. I can't see anything of real value their stories would add to Mark's original point.

Mark's "big picture" message is crystal clear to me Sam. Makes me want to forget all the high-end materials all together and go with plain old American hickory - done very well.

Fact is the agents were purposefully and legally deceptive and spent a LOT of your US tax money making this happen. And the fun is just beginning...
 
Thanks for the good info, everyone!
I have a couple boxes of ivory that I found in a house I was cleaning out in 1996. Because of the context, I'm sure it was from pre-1989, but you know what? It's probably going to stay right there in that box, since there's no way to prove it. Sad...some people have said, Burn it! but that's kind of silly too.

The poaching problem is so bad, though, that refraining from buying it is the least we can do.

PS. I hear the Gibson Guitar scenario used all the time to prove that the agents are a bunch of thugs. Got the chance to talk at length with a major wood importer, and the truth is that Gibson was blatantly flouting the law after warnings. For better or worse, an underfunded agency with a large chore list decided that they'd get the most mileage from hitting Gibson hard, and I think they accomplished that.

If their budget weren't being cut daily, they'd be able to lean more toward education, but that's not in the cards, is it?
 
When did being the "good guy" get to the point of needing to be so educated? I mean really, every craft, hobby, and skill has become taxed regulated and enforced. What are we free to do again?
 
Really it comes down to: "Stay away from endangered species that are being poached to extinction"
There are a lot of good materials that don't fall into that category.
 
ron_m80 said:
When did being the "good guy" get to the point of needing to be so educated? I mean really, every craft, hobby, and skill has become taxed regulated and enforced. What are we free to do again?
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We're always free to pay taxes. ;)
 
elementfe said:
PS. I hear the Gibson Guitar scenario used all the time to prove that the agents are a bunch of thugs. Got the chance to talk at length with a major wood importer, and the truth is that Gibson was blatantly flouting the law after warnings. For better or worse, an underfunded agency with a large chore list decided that they'd get the most mileage from hitting Gibson hard, and I think they accomplished that.
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I don't know whom you spoke to but Gibson guitars is literally just the tip of the iceberg. People with custom guitars have traveled to Canada from the US. When they returned to the US they did not have paperwork for the wood in the guitars and the items were seized. I know a reptile breeder in New Jersey who has been contacted by several times regarding the Lacey Act. The breeder does not import or export reptiles. We know of other examples.
 
12345678910 said:
Why not be more descriptive so we know ?

And I have to say I'm not getting the big picture, I'd appreciate it if you spelt that out too.


When you say losing members, they died ?, were killed by customs agents, got thrown in jail in decrepit third world prison, deported to a decrepit third world, let their Bladeforums membership expire ?

why or how ?

If you're going to bring it up, why don't you spell it out ?
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I am trying not to embarress any one, it's there private business. Two of them are in jail and one got fined and is on probation. Two of them will not be able to have or use animal products for the rest of thier lives. Those are the one I know about and I'm sure I don't know them all. My intention is to make people aware that F&W officials are taking things seriously not air the dirty laundry on these people.
 
elementfe said:
Thanks for the good info, everyone!
I have a couple boxes of ivory that I found in a house I was cleaning out in 1996. Because of the context, I'm sure it was from pre-1989, but you know what? It's probably going to stay right there in that box, since there's no way to prove it. Sad...some people have said, Burn it! but that's kind of silly too.

The poaching problem is so bad, though, that refraining from buying it is the least we can do.

PS. I hear the Gibson Guitar scenario used all the time to prove that the agents are a bunch of thugs. Got the chance to talk at length with a major wood importer, and the truth is that Gibson was blatantly flouting the law after warnings. For better or worse, an underfunded agency with a large chore list decided that they'd get the most mileage from hitting Gibson hard, and I think they accomplished that.

If their budget weren't being cut daily, they'd be able to lean more toward education, but that's not in the cards, is it?
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I get calls about mystery ivory all time, they range from "What can I do with it?" to "Do you want to buy it" Heres what I have learned. When you find yourself with ivory of unknown origin, you can give it to the nearest US fish and wildlife office, or you can use it on a personal knife. I want to be perfectly clear here, do not buy white ivory of unknown origin, but if you happen to end up with some, say it was left to you in an estate, you bid on a abandoned storage unit, or you found it in a house you bought, those are your options. You can't sell, trade or barter it.
 
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I have a few knives from Protech that were marketed as pre-ban elephant ivory, but none of those came with paperwork. Is this anything to be concerned with as far as me selling them at a future point in time?
 
Vege-Taco said:
I have a few knives from Protech that were marketed as pre-ban elephant ivory, but none of those came with paperwork. Is this anything to be concerned with as far as me selling them at a future point in time?
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I personally would not be concerned with that, it would be up to Protech to demonstrate that it is pre-act ivory, if there was a question. I always continue the paper trail when I sell pre-act ivory or if I sell a knife with pre-act ivory on it. It may be that I am going the extra step, it's up to each of us to decide where our comfort zone is.
 
Andy Lewis said:
Because these guys are real folks that happen to be friends of ours both on and off the forum. And they already feel bad enough for having gotten tangled up in this crap. Taking responsibility for your behavior and having some of your worst moments of 2012 drug up again to satisfy idle curiosities are two different things. I can't see anything of real value their stories would add to Mark's original point.

Mark's "big picture" message is crystal clear to me Sam. Makes me want to forget all the high-end materials all together and go with plain old American hickory - done very well.

Fact is the agents were purposefully and legally deceptive and spent a LOT of your US tax money making this happen. And the fun is just beginning...
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Andy is exactly right. Google don't tell the Paul Harvey part of this story. IN MY EYES, the agents used entrapment to make at least part of this happen. If others don't agree that is their right.
 
Mark Knapp said:
You are safe if you are sure it's mammoth and legal walrus, but that's the problem, make sure it is legal walrus.
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If it's fossilized, I don't see how there would be a problem. It's more akin to a rock than actual bone/tusk etc.
 
Mark Knapp said:
I am trying not to embarress any one, it's there private business. Two of them are in jail and one got fined and is on probation. Two of them will not be able to have or use animal products for the rest of thier lives. Those are the one I know about and I'm sure I don't know them all. My intention is to make people aware that F&W officials are taking things seriously not air the dirty laundry on these people.
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Thanks for the details, I didn't mean names, It's the situation I wanted info on.

So the issue is basically using ivory that's not properly paper-worked ?



I've understood for a while that using ivory for me and selling back to USA would have some problems.


Were they dealers, or craftsmen, or collectors ?
 
JSMcustoms said:
If it's fossilized, I don't see how there would be a problem. It's more akin to a rock than actual bone/tusk etc.
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Thats the problem, all of the ivory we call fossil walrus or fossil mammoth is still all ivory, not mineralized in any way. Technically it is ancient and not "fossil" that's why I call it ancient when I talk about it.
 
darrin sanders said:
Andy is exactly right. Google don't tell the Paul Harvey part of this story. IN MY EYES, the agents used entrapment to make at least part of this happen. If others don't agree that is their right.
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Darrin, your comment seems pointed at me so I will answer it. I am offered illegal materials several times a month. Some of it is by private people that don't know any better. Some of it is by people that know it's not legal and will trick me into buying something I am not supposed to buy and if the feds are watching them, I will be dragged in. Some of these offers will be made by State or Federal officers that will try to get me to screw up. If I screw up, it is my fault. If you think they are out to get you, you are right, they are out to get you. They're out to get me too, but if they get me, it will be because I did something wrong.

It's my hope that because I brought this up, my friends here will be a little more careful, it's hard enough to make a living as a knife maker, nobody needs the hassle.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Darrin, your comment seems pointed at me so I will answer it. I am offered illegal materials several times a month. Some of it is by private people that don't know any better. Some of it is by people that know it's not legal and will trick me into buying something I am not supposed to buy and if the feds are watching them, I will be dragged in. Some of these offers will be made by State or Federal officers that will try to get me to screw up. If I screw up, it is my fault. If you think they are out to get you, you are right, they are out to get you. They're out to get me too, but if they get me, it will be because I did something wrong.

I wasn't being critical Mark, I was simply making it clear that we have different opinions and are both entitled to them. The info. that I have leads me to believe that the Feds. overstepped their bounds but like I said, that is MY opinion. I just hope this thread makes everybody realize that you can get in a serious bind over this stuff and like you said, nobody needs that kind of trouble.
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Now you've got me paranoid Mark. ;)


I only use mammoth, and what's purported to be fossil walrus (some from you, but other sources as well). What type of information besides a receipt do I need to keep? Should I be carting that paperwork with any knife to a show or otherwise ?


I don't use, nor have any desire to use elephant ivory, so that's not an issue for me, how concerned do I need to be about fossil walrus?
 
javand said:
Now you've got me paranoid Mark. ;)


I only use mammoth, and what's purported to be fossil walrus (some from you, but other sources as well). What type of information besides a receipt do I need to keep? Should I be carting that paperwork with any knife to a show or otherwise ?


I don't use, nor have any desire to use elephant ivory, so that's not an issue for me, how concerned do I need to be about fossil walrus?
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If the ivory has color, you do not have to worry. If you buy it from a reputable dealer do not worry. If the color is faked (it's usually easy to tell) if the color is just on the surface, can be scratched through easily with a thumb nail or edge of a blade, or it looks like the ivory was burned, I would stay away from it. Really, we are talking about white ivory, I would not buy white ivory of unknown origin.
 
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