We gettin' rifles...

[Buck268]

Cleveland SWAT went in after him.



You and Fool need to flush out your headgear. You ask why campus cops need guns, but people will ask why they didn't have them as soon as the smoke clears after a campus shooting.

As much as I wish it weren't so, we are in a world were North Hollywood, gang warfare, Columbine, and Al Quaida are not fantasies, but realities.

Did I say guns? NO. I said assault gear. A fucking M4 carbine is highly excesive to issue out to campus cops. But hey, its your police state, I just have to live here :jerkit:

 

[Guntotin_fool]

I did not ask why campus police need guns, but AR's. Rifles are not needed.
A handgun or a shotgun makes far more sense than handing out AR's to every patrol car. I even acknowledged that one or two in the system makes sense for that 1 in a 100 million situation.

If a stand off occurs, the AR platform is not the top pick for a countersniper weapon. It will not reliably accurately shoot through glass. Deflection of the rounds by even window glass is well documented. This is the reason for a .308 that most police special tact teams use in the shooter role.
A 5.56 is not reliable at one shot kills, even to the head, a .308 in the mellon tends to stop things every time. If storming a stand off in a dorm or class building, a 12 gauge with OO buck is much more effective at room distances than an AR. Even the aforementioned MP5 is better at short ranges.

I live next to and am on the U of Minnesota on a daily basis. It is in the top five in the nation in campus populations. I deal with the athletic dept and Administration on a business basis. I talk to the cops who are there. I know they are carrying gun, usually Glock 22's although some are carrying SIGs now. 90% of the work they do is traffic cop/metermaid. They tell me that, One guy who has been there 34 years, has not once drawn his weapon. Of all the officer i have dealt with at the U, only one has ever drawn his weapon in need, and that after a fight broke out after a concert that was on U property but was not U related.

The university cops are a duplication of powers, they really are created by the administration as a way of keeping control over the campus. If frat boy Bob strong arms a co-ed on campus, the administration does not want it getting out to the papers, private police corps allow that. Wealthy Alums are not going to send money and daughters to schools were 30% of sorority girls complain about date rape. Keep that figure under wraps and you spout figures about how safe your campus is based on "reported crimes". It does not do for a big time athletic power to loose a few star athletes for not understanding that no means no even to them.

University police should never have to deal with crack houses or meth labs off campus, no matter how close. That is city cops or sheriffs office work.

They maybe sworn officers, but in most cases their powers are distinctly limited to the official property of the university. They do not have the jurisdictional authority to arrest anyone off campus in most cases. Minnesota law only allows them to work off campus when directly accompanied by a local LEO. This usually only happens when a warrant is served on a non student who has had a conflict with a student.

North Hollywood was brought up, any officer who had a 12 gauge could have ended that very fast. Just shoot for the legs, buckshot in the legs would have stopped the mobility of the shooters very fast, a suspect in the open who can not move is toast no matter what he is wearing or shooting. It is common practice now to aim for the legs, pelvis area on suspect wearing body armor. The hit probability goes up considerably when you are shooting 9 pellets from a long barrel than from a hand gun.

Remember that college campus's are by very definition crowded places. DO you want people using 1-200 yard lethal range weapons or 600 yard lethal weapons in a crowded Quad?

Again, we ask why do campus cops need assault gear?

In the later posts, the OP posted that there were only a few going in to sergeants or LT's cars. I can handle this. I think I would have chosen other options than AR's but I can deal with senior officers carrying one or two in the system, THAT makes sense. I also listed that I think one rifle team would be appropriate for a big U campus. I have no trouble with shotties for EVERY officer, even the ones driving the Cushman's.

Before I started my own company, I worked for a company that sold products to most of the major Universities in the nation. I traveled to all of the big ten, all of the pac 10, the WAC, the SEC and Big East. It was my job to talk to people who were involved in security and crime prevention at almost all these schools, I will tell you that I met several Officers and campus security people who were doing a great job. Most were eating at the trough of public largess. Many had no idea what the true status of on campus crime was as they just did not want to know, to know was to have to do something or report it accurately. Many were wannabees who could not make it on to a real police force, it seemed that the schools that had campus security rather than campus police had far more lax standards. often they were just upperclassmen with a radio, a flashlight and a uniform.

I did not catch the Case Western event, I apologize for missing that one, however I still feel that very limited use of a patrol car AR makes sense. But I think there are way better options.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Did I say guns? NO. I said assault gear. A fucking M4 carbine is highly excesive to issue out to campus cops. But hey, its your police state, I just have to live here :jerkit:

you may not know it, but most uc campus police already have a3 carbines issued.

high risk stops are made on or near campuses all the time, college and otherwise. stolen cars, fleeing criminals, etc. they need to be prepared to handle any sort of incident. active shooter scenario training is now commonplace in all police agencies.

like it or not, whether you are aware or not, is irrelevant. dont assume for a second that campus police are at any less risk than municipal or county officers.

and i would remove the 'f' word, this isnt whine and cheese, and it would be silly to receive a ban or warning for that.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I did not ask why campus police need guns, but AR's. Rifles are not needed.
A handgun or a shotgun makes far more sense than handing out AR's to every patrol car. I even acknowledged that one or two in the system makes sense for that 1 in a 100 million situation.

If a stand off occurs, the AR platform is not the top pick for a countersniper weapon. It will not reliably accurately shoot through glass. Deflection of the rounds by even window glass is well documented. This is the reason for a .308 that most police special tact teams use in the shooter role.
A 5.56 is not reliable at one shot kills, even to the head, a .308 in the mellon tends to stop things every time. If storming a stand off in a dorm or class building, a 12 gauge with OO buck is much more effective at room distances than an AR. Even the aforementioned MP5 is better at short ranges.

.308 is better, but politics dictates much of the equipment we receive. ive trained quite a bit with an mp5, a .223 with the ammo we use is far more effective, especially at short distances. 12 guage is great, but difficult to manuever in close quarters. an m4 is a better entry weapon, imo.

I live next to and am on the U of Minnesota on a daily basis. It is in the top five in the nation in campus populations. I deal with the athletic dept and Administration on a business basis. I talk to the cops who are there. I know they are carrying gun, usually Glock 22's although some are carrying SIGs now. 90% of the work they do is traffic cop/metermaid. They tell me that, One guy who has been there 34 years, has not once drawn his weapon. Of all the officer i have dealt with at the U, only one has ever drawn his weapon in need, and that after a fight broke out after a concert that was on U property but was not U related.

The university cops are a duplication of powers, they really are created by the administration as a way of keeping control over the campus. If frat boy Bob strong arms a co-ed on campus, the administration does not want it getting out to the papers, private police corps allow that. Wealthy Alums are not going to send money and daughters to schools were 30% of sorority girls complain about date rape. Keep that figure under wraps and you spout figures about how safe your campus is based on "reported crimes". It does not do for a big time athletic power to loose a few star athletes for not understanding that no means no even to them.

in ca at least, institutions with populations as high as universites and colleges are required by law to provide their own security. uc and cal state have chosen to have police instead of unsworn security. they handle their own arrests rather than wait for the local agency to arrive.

University police should never have to deal with crack houses or meth labs off campus, no matter how close. That is city cops or sheriffs office work.

what about warrants served in campus housing?

They maybe sworn officers, but in most cases their powers are distinctly limited to the official property of the university. They do not have the jurisdictional authority to arrest anyone off campus in most cases. Minnesota law only allows them to work off campus when directly accompanied by a local LEO. This usually only happens when a warrant is served on a non student who has had a conflict with a student.

again, at least in ca, every full time police officer's powers extend statewide, though 'jurisdiction' may be limited by policy. ca has no law that requires city or county officers to accompany in off campus arrest.

North Hollywood was brought up, any officer who had a 12 gauge could have ended that very fast. Just shoot for the legs, buckshot in the legs would have stopped the mobility of the shooters very fast, a suspect in the open who can not move is toast no matter what he is wearing or shooting. It is common practice now to aim for the legs, pelvis area on suspect wearing body armor. The hit probability goes up considerably when you are shooting 9 pellets from a long barrel than from a hand gun.

they had shotguns. the suspects had armor covering their legs and arms. at fifty yards, buckshot on body armor is not even worth mentioning.

Remember that college campus's are by very definition crowded places. DO you want people using 1-200 yard lethal range weapons or 600 yard lethal weapons in a crowded Quad?

that is a training issue, not a weapon system issue. cities and counties are crowded as well. north hollywood was adjacent to a residential area and spilled over into the neighborhood.

Again, we ask why do campus cops need assault gear?

In the later posts, the OP posted that there were only a few going in to sergeants or LT's cars. I can handle this. I think I would have chosen other options than AR's but I can deal with senior officers carrying one or two in the system, THAT makes sense. I also listed that I think one rifle team would be appropriate for a big U campus. I have no trouble with shotties for EVERY officer, even the ones driving the Cushman's.

Before I started my own company, I worked for a company that sold products to most of the major Universities in the nation. I traveled to all of the big ten, all of the pac 10, the WAC, the SEC and Big East. It was my job to talk to people who were involved in security and crime prevention at almost all these schools, I will tell you that I met several Officers and campus security people who were doing a great job. Most were eating at the trough of public largess. Many had no idea what the true status of on campus crime was as they just did not want to know, to know was to have to do something or report it accurately. Many were wannabees who could not make it on to a real police force, it seemed that the schools that had campus security rather than campus police had far more lax standards. often they were just upperclassmen with a radio, a flashlight and a uniform.

I did not catch the Case Western event, I apologize for missing that one, however I still feel that very limited use of a patrol car AR makes sense. But I think there are way better options.

it is limited use system. but in the event it is needed, to have to wait for the rifle to arrive may result in the loss of life. the first responder with the ability to deploy and decide to shoot is crucial.

 

[Cutshaw]

Buck268 -
I think you're seeing a different environment than mwerner. Mwerner and I don't know one another but we do live in the same city. He in law enforcement, I'm a broadcast engineer for a TV news station. Trust me... St. Louis isn't Houghton, all tucked away up in the U.P.

Did you know St. Louis was the nation's "most dangerous city" last year? We beat Detroit in that *and* the World Series! Based on werner's description, I know that this particular university is one of three possibles. Trust me on this one, the area nearby ain't good. To the tune of frequent drive by shootings.

If you tell me the mall security guard has a M4, then my gut reaction will be the same as yours. No way! Overanxious, untrained mall ninja. Heck, I would have the same gut reaction about campus parking-security, too.

Take a large university though and you've got a full-fledged police department, just as Morimotom describes. We're not talking meter maids. I *think* I know the school in question and the enrollment for 2006 was 13,527 -- Let's add another couple of thousand for staff. Houghton, MI lists a population of 7,010 in 2000.

Just the city of St Louis... not the entire metro area of 2.5 million, lists the following for 2006:

Murders: 129, Rape: 337, Armed Robbery: 1,986 and Agg. Assault: 4,992 (2,272 with a gun.)

The way I see it, it is a full-fledged police force. The job? To maintain the safety and security of its' law abiding citizens. Who are those citizens? Our kids! I really don't think it was the intent of the sergeant to use M4s to bust the kid in the dorm for his water bong. It is to protect against those who would do harm to these kids. In this area? There are a lot of them... When my six year old daughter is finally away at college I hope they have a well trained SWAT team on campus. Not only for lowlife, crime loving, no job, thugs that can be encountered preying on campus kids, but to maintain her virtue... since she will surely be a virgin until she is thirty or married - whichever comes LATER.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/30/national/main2135998.shtml

(Seriously, no slam intended about Houghton. It sounds like a great area. I spent a week solo sea kayak island hopping in the Apostles last August. I love Superior!)

 

[mwerner]

Just for the record, our department is fully-accredited, POST-certified, etc, etc.
We are deputized by St. Louis County, and can enforce state law all over the state just like any other police agency. We have our own REGIS and DOR terminals; you don't get those unless you're a valid agency.
Almost all of our officers are veterans of other departments in the area, or the military.
This is the case with the other major university police departments in the area as well, and is increasingly the case all over the country.

The primary reason for having a patrol rifle for us is the ever-present "active shooter" danger.
In addition to all the normal worst-case scenarios you can think of; lunatics, terrorists, hate crimes, etc., there's always the "disgruntled employee" scenario as well.
Our housekeeping staff tends to be drawn from....Work release. Well, maybe not that bad, but I don't know how many arrests we've made from this bunch, and the turnover is high as well. We constantly get called to disturbances involving folks getting fired; there's always the chance someone will come back with his pistol.
One guy threatened to come back and "pop a cap in someone's ass". We had to explain what that meant...
Finally, in addition to the ivy-covered halls of the main campus, we're increasingly assisting the local departments with policing of the numerous off-campus properties that the university owns. The undermanned and overstressed St. Louis police can't be relied on to respond to things in a timely fashion, so when there's a problem, we go.

 

[Buck268]

I'll keep my reply simple. Guntotin fool is right on the money; campus cops have far less jurisdiction than city/sherrif/state boys do. They see far less (if any) raids or the like. Are they at risk still? Sure. But if there is a compus out there where the cops have a need for assault rifles with them all the time, then I don't think simply issueing assault rifles will do any good at all. And I think the students should be smart enough to get the f<>> out of that town.

As for the houghton thing, yeah Houghton is great, almost no crime. But I grew up in the Detroit area for 22 years. This is my first year in the yooper. I've lived in Shelby, I've partied in the D and ponticrack. I know a thing or two about watching my back. Which is exactly why I abhor cops walking around equiped like a spec ops soldier. Remember back when the power that be was reluctant to deploy troops on US soil? Well, I ask you this: what is the difference between a SWAT team and a military patrol? When it comes down to it; what they use, how they operate, etc, there isn't much. Of course they have a place in modern society, but the more we count on the police to keep us safe the less freedom we have. I for one am unwilling to trade that freedom; I rely on myself for my safety.

And you know what, if some dumbass social outcast wants to come in a blow my head off in school, I won't be able to stop him. Neither will the cops as they will take too long to respond to save my young arse. So yeah, we could get our cops all geared upso they can take these guys on from 3 miles away, but in the long run, its not going to save many lives. And you ARE going to loose a lot of freedom. Maybe not right away, but it builds the infrastructure for oppression. Am I too idealistic that people can/should handle their own self protection? Am I too idealistic because I don't want a police state created under our noses without us knowning? You tell me.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Well, I ask you this: what is the difference between a SWAT team and a military patrol? When it comes down to it; what they use, how they operate, etc, there isn't much.

the difference is simple and dramatic. swat is used as a mission specific unit, ie warrant service, active shooter, etc. if used in a patrol funcion, they are not in tactical gear, normally, and you wouldnt know the difference between them and regular patrol. police are not combat oriented, even when serving a warrant, the goal is NOT to take life.

a military patrol is combat oriented serving in a hostile area.

your analogies are poor.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

And you know what, if some dumbass social outcast wants to come in a blow my head off in school, I won't be able to stop him. Neither will the cops as they will take too long to respond to save my young arse.

maybe, maybe not. the active shooter in the utah mall was stopped by local swat officers and one off duty seargent.

that is why first responders must have the ability to intervene and deploy with the proper equipment.

unless your social outcast takes his own life, who do you think is going to stop him? you?

 

[Unsub]

It would make sence to me to have one in four squad cars have a patrol rifle or countersniper rifle so long as there is a well trained man or woman to employ it.
I agree that some SWAT teams are military units and should be used much more sparingly but having some options when dealing with a armed and armoured
terrorist or criminal can only be a good thing. Campus's are way worse for crime than most people know.

I love this quote, "sheep have two speeds: 'grazing' and 'stampede,'"

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I love this quote, "sheep have two speeds: 'grazing' and 'stampede,'"

thats great!! im gonna use that one!

 

[Geraldo]

Posted by Fool:

A 5.56 is not reliable at one shot kills, even to the head, a .308 in the mellon tends to stop things every time. If storming a stand off in a dorm or class building, a 12 gauge with OO buck is much more effective at room distances than an AR. Even the aforementioned MP5 is better at short ranges.

and:

North Hollywood was brought up, any officer who had a 12 gauge could have ended that very fast. Just shoot for the legs, buckshot in the legs would have stopped the mobility of the shooters very fast, a suspect in the open who can not move is toast no matter what he is wearing or shooting. It is common practice now to aim for the legs, pelvis area on suspect wearing body armor. The hit probability goes up considerably when you are shooting 9 pellets from a long barrel than from a hand gun.

If we needed proof that you have no idea what you're talking about, here it is. The entire content of these two paragraphs is BS.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

If we needed proof that you have no idea what you're talking about, here it is. The entire content of these two paragraphs is BS.

i posted as much in my response. it is probably safe to say he has never been in any type of combat or served in any type of law enforcement capacity and just watches a lot of tv.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

It is common practice now to aim for the legs, pelvis area on suspect wearing body armor

i cant believe i missed this statement. might be the dumbest thing you have posted. ive never trained to shoot the legs. the target is too small and normally moving. no agency i am aware of trains to shoot the legs, in any situation. shoot the torso, or if you can, the head. we dont train to wound and shoot the guns out of people's hands either. we train to stop a threat, period.

that is one reason i have the rifle, to defeat body armor.

ive shot 1 oz slugs at one yard at body armor. NO penetration. s&w 550, NO penetration. .44 mag, .357 mag, NO pentration. we shot that vest with about 50 rounds, no penetration with anything including #9 buck.

the only thing we had that pentrated was the .223.

 

[zenheretic]

MP5 better than a .223? Hilarious.

What is with this "1 in 4" patrol cars should have one? I want my front line peace officers to have the best training and the best equipment available. Why would anyone want to hamstring them? Mayberry is fiction. Running back to the Sheriff's office to unlock the rifle cabinet and pass out the rifles is fiction.

My alma mater's cops were just that, cops. Same cop school, same cop training, same certifications, same officer powers.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

MP5 better than a .223? Hilarious.

What is with this "1 in 4" patrol cars should have one? I want my front line peace officers to have the best training and the best equipment available. Why would anyone want to hamstring them? Mayberry is fiction. Running back to the Sheriff's office to unlock the rifle cabinet and pass out the rifles is fiction.

My alma mater's cops were just that, cops. Same cop school, same cop training, same certifications, same officer powers.

you are my new hero!!!!!!!!

 

[zenheretic]

you are my new hero!!!!!!!!

I just don't understand why anyone would ask a person to put their life on the line, but deny them the best tools for the job. Then hold them responsible when tragedy occurs.

It is a common misconception the Uni. cops are "mall security", but I doubt any public university in the country has that these days.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I just don't understand why anyone would ask a person to put their life on the line, but deny them the best tools for the job. Then hold them responsible when tragedy occurs.

It is a common misconception the Uni. cops are "mall security", but I doubt any public university in the country has that these days.

absolutely right. there are still some private universities, like usc, that allow their security to have only on duty peace officer powers. kind of like a security guard, but they only hire police academy graduates or laterals.

 

[victory]

absolutely right. there are still some private universities, like usc, that allow their security to have only on duty peace officer powers. kind of like a security guard, but they only hire police academy graduates or laterals.

That's mostly for insurance and PR reasons. I went to a private university in a very dangerous small city, that had inadequate policing to begin with, that wouldn't allow their security to carry more than a flashlight (though nothing large enough to strike with), a radio and a pair of handcuffs. pepper spray was forbidden and they were strongly discouraged from wearing vests as they were afraid it "gave the wrong image" A lot of these guys were cops doing this on the side for a little extra cash, retired cops or academy graduates waiting for their applications to yield a job. I got quite popular with most of them advocating publicly they be turned into a real police force to present an armed deterrent to the local scum that preyed on the students. My public advocacy of the school easing its draconian restrictions on properly licensed students carrying did get my room searched for weapons however...

 

[MORIMOTOM]

That's mostly for insurance and PR reasons. I went to a private university in a very dangerous small city, that had inadequate policing to begin with, that wouldn't allow their security to carry more than a flashlight (though nothing large enough to strike with), a radio and a pair of handcuffs. pepper spray was forbidden and they were strongly discouraged from wearing vests as they were afraid it "gave the wrong image" A lot of these guys were cops doing this on the side for a little extra cash, retired cops or academy graduates waiting for their applications to yield a job. I got quite popular with most of them advocating publicly they be turned into a real police force to present an armed deterrent to the local scum that preyed on the students. My public advocacy of the school easing its draconian restrictions on properly licensed students carrying did get my room searched for weapons however...

pr among other reasons. it is difficult for any private entity to attain its own police department. usc's security is about as close as you can get without actually being a full time officer. they do a fine job, but are unable to book their own arrests, lapd comes and takes the body.