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We gettin' rifles...
- Thread starter mwerner
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In regards to Kr1's post:
As I mentioned early on, the primary use for the patrol rifle in our context is in response to the "active shooter" scenario. Heavy emphasis on this type of training came about after Columbine, of course.
Responding officers took up holding positions and waited for SWAT, while the lads made merry inside the school.
Re-thinking was done.
Now, officers are almost universally receiving training and yearly updates and refreshers on tactical response to this sort of scenario. As you know, this might be terrorists, lunatics, robbery-gone-bad scenarios, disgruntled employees who "go postal", or anything else.
Essentially, it's very basic tactical entry and engagement. The first four officers (I'm not giving away any secrets here) on scene go in in a "diamond" formation.
Basic room-clearing procedures are followed. As rooms are cleared, secondary teams remove anyone in same.
The idea is to find and engage the shooter as soon as possible.
The other incident that prompted most departments around the country to issue rifles is the "Hollywood bank robbery" incident. It's still rather unclear if these individuals wanted to actually rob the bank or simply intended a large-scale shootout with police to go out in a "blaze of glory".
Nonetheless, the chances of encountering heavily-armed and armored criminals has gone up. There was a report in the paper last week that police chiefs around the country report an upsurge of heavy weaponry in the hands of criminals and gang-bangers.
The AK is becoming the weapon of choice, it seems.
(I'm old enough to remember when the average "crime weapon" was an ancient .32 break top revolver)
We are not engaging in military operations, and we are not pulling out the rifles to respond to frat-boy party problems.
As I mentioned early on, the primary use for the patrol rifle in our context is in response to the "active shooter" scenario. Heavy emphasis on this type of training came about after Columbine, of course.
Responding officers took up holding positions and waited for SWAT, while the lads made merry inside the school.
Re-thinking was done.
Now, officers are almost universally receiving training and yearly updates and refreshers on tactical response to this sort of scenario. As you know, this might be terrorists, lunatics, robbery-gone-bad scenarios, disgruntled employees who "go postal", or anything else.
Essentially, it's very basic tactical entry and engagement. The first four officers (I'm not giving away any secrets here) on scene go in in a "diamond" formation.
Basic room-clearing procedures are followed. As rooms are cleared, secondary teams remove anyone in same.
The idea is to find and engage the shooter as soon as possible.
The other incident that prompted most departments around the country to issue rifles is the "Hollywood bank robbery" incident. It's still rather unclear if these individuals wanted to actually rob the bank or simply intended a large-scale shootout with police to go out in a "blaze of glory".
Nonetheless, the chances of encountering heavily-armed and armored criminals has gone up. There was a report in the paper last week that police chiefs around the country report an upsurge of heavy weaponry in the hands of criminals and gang-bangers.
The AK is becoming the weapon of choice, it seems.
(I'm old enough to remember when the average "crime weapon" was an ancient .32 break top revolver)
We are not engaging in military operations, and we are not pulling out the rifles to respond to frat-boy party problems.
- Joined
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Best overall choice out there. We considered many other weapons including the ones mentioned elsewhere in this thread. That M4 will shoot circles around any MP5 type weapon and at least you've got a rifle caliber.
Didn't want you to think I missed this. From a terrorists perspective, this is brilliant. I have worked many scenarios in my head and ones like this pay the terrorists the greatest rewards for the least work; possibly. However there may be such a backlash in the non-muslim and even the majority of the muslim world it may also ultimetly hurt their intended purpose.
I always thought that a nice fat US island might be a target i.e. Marthas vineyard, etc. would be a prime location to pull some stuff. Isolated, small police force, could take control quickly, round people up, start executing them, make big headlines. There are lots to chose from. Many other scenarios are possible with a small determined force who doesn't care if they live or prefers that they die.
I have seen/read about the Beslan operation and I think those operations have to be handled without negotiations as soon as a tactial team arrives because the longer the wait the longer they have to fortify and engineer so more damage is done. They have no interest in negotiations anyways. Response has to be immediate and military in style. The response should be in the form of SFOD-Delta not SWAT or similar units.
KR
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correct kr,
terrorist actions are way beyond the scope of law enforcement. in los angeles, even if all the area swat teams were mobilized, it would be near impossible to organize and assault. each has their own sop's and tactical procedures.
likely, the first responders would make entry, maybe 6-8 officers. all would probably get killed.
once it was determined to be a planned terrorist takeover, military units must be contacted.
a military assualt, like beslan, is the only viable option to end the incident. collateral damage is unavoidable.
although police agencies plan for terrorist actions, most accept the need to relinquish jursidiction to the military.
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University of Pennsylvania has had some rough periods, too.
I agree with your point that campus PD started as a way to keep university officials in control and bad news out of the press. As campuses have grown larger and attracted a more diverse student body, they have had to deal with more incidents - both from students and outsiders. Hence a change toward more independent units that resemble town police departments. I'm sure the President of a 30,000+ student university doesn't want to hear about it every time somebody's laptop gets pinched or a mugging happens.
Larger schools have more resources for dealing with more extreme incidents in-house. They can hire enough people to have a reasonably sized team on duty 24 hours/day to respond to major incidents in-house, if necessary. Smaller schools should still have a plan - even if that's a fast call to the regular PD.
Thanks for taking the time to explain some of the points you made in detail.
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Enter the War on Terror, calling it a WAR allows us the full on military option during terrorist incidents, however for the run on the mill stuff you have to rely on the officers that can get there the quickest.
Our last standoff was about two weeks ago, one officer hit in the initial contact (unharmed thankfully and we extracted him quickly) and post incident it was determined that the the badguy ultimately waxed his parents (a couple of days before) before doing himself after putting several rounds at and one into (vest stopped it) the first responding officer (check the welfare call)
In retrospect I was FAR happier being able to cover the area during rescue with the M-4 than I would have been with a shotgun, or the .45 based subgun I was issued earlier.
We are talking about post Columbine ALERRT training. San Marcos Texas built a Multi Million dollar training center using grant money to teach this very thing. They are the foremost in the arena for CIT ALERRT training. Just as the US Military had to adapt LAPD responses (the Brits having a tendency to bang and spray) to true surgical hostage rescue, the ALERRT center I believe will be on the cutting edge for years to come based on their response to the active shooter.
I was fortunate enough to attend ALERRT training before our last school shooting (unfortunately I was at Quantico at other training when this occured), and hosted them shortly after the school shooting when Admins eyes were opened to the fact that ALL Sworn officers should be trained to this level at a minimum.
I would prefer that ALL sworn officers be trained to the SWAT basic level, but thats unrealistic to expect, and I would still want ALERRT to be trained for its "Get the #@$%$ in and get the #$%#$% job done approach" I always hated some of the caution that was forced on us prior to this training.
Congrats on the M-4s, make sure if you are using any variant of holosight (including tritium) that you still have iron sights to co-witness.
Our last standoff was about two weeks ago, one officer hit in the initial contact (unharmed thankfully and we extracted him quickly) and post incident it was determined that the the badguy ultimately waxed his parents (a couple of days before) before doing himself after putting several rounds at and one into (vest stopped it) the first responding officer (check the welfare call)
In retrospect I was FAR happier being able to cover the area during rescue with the M-4 than I would have been with a shotgun, or the .45 based subgun I was issued earlier.
We are talking about post Columbine ALERRT training. San Marcos Texas built a Multi Million dollar training center using grant money to teach this very thing. They are the foremost in the arena for CIT ALERRT training. Just as the US Military had to adapt LAPD responses (the Brits having a tendency to bang and spray) to true surgical hostage rescue, the ALERRT center I believe will be on the cutting edge for years to come based on their response to the active shooter.
I was fortunate enough to attend ALERRT training before our last school shooting (unfortunately I was at Quantico at other training when this occured), and hosted them shortly after the school shooting when Admins eyes were opened to the fact that ALL Sworn officers should be trained to this level at a minimum.
I would prefer that ALL sworn officers be trained to the SWAT basic level, but thats unrealistic to expect, and I would still want ALERRT to be trained for its "Get the #@$%$ in and get the #$%#$% job done approach" I always hated some of the caution that was forced on us prior to this training.
Congrats on the M-4s, make sure if you are using any variant of holosight (including tritium) that you still have iron sights to co-witness.
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I believe you run in to Legal problems letting the Military run ops on US soil. I Do believe there there are larger agencies which have the capacity to respond and hopefully deal with such a threat. I would think the regional HRT or US marshalls threat teams would be the first options.
A final comment on the 11 inch shorty M4/CAR-15 vs the MP5/10 or 40. I realize that you use what you can get. However, these comments about getting a rifle caliber vers a hand gun round are for the most part MOOT.
It is very difficult to get a 11 inch 5.56 to chrono over 2000 FPS with most of the ammo available. You might find the odd round that goes 2200 with a 55 grain bullet, but at that speed you are going to not much more performance than using a .22 hornet. It is very rare to get reliable expansion out of a 5.56 at sub 2500 fps velocities. Rifle bullets are meant to function at rifle velocities, If you make a jacket that reliably expands at 2000FPS, at 2600 Fps or 3200 FPS out of a 20 or 24 inch barrel that bullet is going to destruct like a balloon on a pin. at the same time, if you make a jacketed bullet that will hold together and expand at between 2800 and 3200 fps, when it hits 2400 fps, it will act like a FMJ and just drill a little hole. Every MP5 i have shot will shoot sub 4 inch groups at 100 yards, most will shoot about a 3 inch group when handled by a good trigger guy. My eyes are not so good anymore, but last time I shot an SD, I was still able to put every shot in the head of a 1/4 scale silhouette at 25 yards, ( all the range we had available to us that day.) with the switch on fun, I can dump the whole mag into the COM oval with no difficulty at all.
A 10mm with a 170 grain JHP is already 3 times the mass, nearly twice the diameter and AND the velocity out of the 9 inch or so MP5 barrel is in the vicinity of 1700 FPS, and has bullets that will reliably expand up to at least .60 caliber, and maybe 70 caliber.
The 40 S&W makes about 1600 with a 155 grainer out of the MP5 and tests are showing .357 sigs at about 1900 FPS with a 120 Grainer.
Sure these are not eye popping when you read them against 5.56 performance out of a 20 or 24 inch barrel. But against the 11 inch CAR barrel. They look pretty good.
Ballistically the 10 mm auto is the twin of the 41 magnum, and I have seen several animals hit with 41 mags from a 1895 marlin 16 in barrel that would lead me to believe with good development work, a AR platform shorty with a 10 mm auto might be a really hot tip in CQB, especially if you get to use expanding ammo. a 170 at 2200 or a 200 at 1950 -2000 fps would be a good hammer.
Tohatchi,
I agree to a point. I still feel that most UPD's are kept to keep information supressed. I can not believe that in this day and age of outsourcing, just bringing in extra local municipal LEO's to handle campus crime would not be more cost effective. The duplication in resources just makes it hard to justify for economics alone. Two 911 systems, two dispatch offices, two motor pools. two retirement and health care pools, etc etc. Even getting the U defined as a precinct would be an easier way to deal with the operations.
However in doing that, the door opens to have a lot of dirty laundry aired out. Remember that to some schools, the athletic dept is a 50 - 100 million dollar enterprise, with upwards of half that money coming back to the rest of the school.
The same with alumni giving. No one is going to send little Sally or Bobby to a school where one in three females has unwanted physical contact(thats a common figure tossed around campus's). The Dollars are just too big. If star linebacker gets popped with a bit of weed, the surface reasoning is "we are equipped to help this young man make better decisions in the future." The underlying reasoning is the smear on the AD and department will cost us millions. The same with government research grants, a stolen lap top with the latest information on bio defense strategies, even if stolen by a crack head and pawned for 5 cents on the dollar, could be devastating to future grant allocations. A Campus police report that states '' a stolen back pack with an Ipod, some books and a laptop" raises fewer eyebrows. Just listing "a soph student had trouble returning to her Dorm room on sat night, campus police assisted her in her efforts." which is a nice way of saying "sally sorority, while drunk off her a**, was accosted, groped and left partially undressed by 4 guys in the entry way of her Dorm."
The key to stopping a terror attack is intell. For the most part, once the action begins, people die in big numbers. I always fear either a big bomb or a infectious agent at a big event. Imagine a rider truck with 1000 lbs of anfo and a 1000 lbs of nails or bolts packed around it going off at the Rose Bowl or Macy's parade. Or a baggie of bio material released inside the superdome or from the top deck of Volunteer stadium.
Three guys with subguns and a few grenades might get 50 people and believe me that would be horrible, but nothing like 300 dead on the spot and 85,000 infectious people running out in a panic as human incubators.
THAT scares the PEE out of me.
A final comment on the 11 inch shorty M4/CAR-15 vs the MP5/10 or 40. I realize that you use what you can get. However, these comments about getting a rifle caliber vers a hand gun round are for the most part MOOT.
It is very difficult to get a 11 inch 5.56 to chrono over 2000 FPS with most of the ammo available. You might find the odd round that goes 2200 with a 55 grain bullet, but at that speed you are going to not much more performance than using a .22 hornet. It is very rare to get reliable expansion out of a 5.56 at sub 2500 fps velocities. Rifle bullets are meant to function at rifle velocities, If you make a jacket that reliably expands at 2000FPS, at 2600 Fps or 3200 FPS out of a 20 or 24 inch barrel that bullet is going to destruct like a balloon on a pin. at the same time, if you make a jacketed bullet that will hold together and expand at between 2800 and 3200 fps, when it hits 2400 fps, it will act like a FMJ and just drill a little hole. Every MP5 i have shot will shoot sub 4 inch groups at 100 yards, most will shoot about a 3 inch group when handled by a good trigger guy. My eyes are not so good anymore, but last time I shot an SD, I was still able to put every shot in the head of a 1/4 scale silhouette at 25 yards, ( all the range we had available to us that day.) with the switch on fun, I can dump the whole mag into the COM oval with no difficulty at all.
A 10mm with a 170 grain JHP is already 3 times the mass, nearly twice the diameter and AND the velocity out of the 9 inch or so MP5 barrel is in the vicinity of 1700 FPS, and has bullets that will reliably expand up to at least .60 caliber, and maybe 70 caliber.
The 40 S&W makes about 1600 with a 155 grainer out of the MP5 and tests are showing .357 sigs at about 1900 FPS with a 120 Grainer.
Sure these are not eye popping when you read them against 5.56 performance out of a 20 or 24 inch barrel. But against the 11 inch CAR barrel. They look pretty good.
Ballistically the 10 mm auto is the twin of the 41 magnum, and I have seen several animals hit with 41 mags from a 1895 marlin 16 in barrel that would lead me to believe with good development work, a AR platform shorty with a 10 mm auto might be a really hot tip in CQB, especially if you get to use expanding ammo. a 170 at 2200 or a 200 at 1950 -2000 fps would be a good hammer.
Tohatchi,
I agree to a point. I still feel that most UPD's are kept to keep information supressed. I can not believe that in this day and age of outsourcing, just bringing in extra local municipal LEO's to handle campus crime would not be more cost effective. The duplication in resources just makes it hard to justify for economics alone. Two 911 systems, two dispatch offices, two motor pools. two retirement and health care pools, etc etc. Even getting the U defined as a precinct would be an easier way to deal with the operations.
However in doing that, the door opens to have a lot of dirty laundry aired out. Remember that to some schools, the athletic dept is a 50 - 100 million dollar enterprise, with upwards of half that money coming back to the rest of the school.
The same with alumni giving. No one is going to send little Sally or Bobby to a school where one in three females has unwanted physical contact(thats a common figure tossed around campus's). The Dollars are just too big. If star linebacker gets popped with a bit of weed, the surface reasoning is "we are equipped to help this young man make better decisions in the future." The underlying reasoning is the smear on the AD and department will cost us millions. The same with government research grants, a stolen lap top with the latest information on bio defense strategies, even if stolen by a crack head and pawned for 5 cents on the dollar, could be devastating to future grant allocations. A Campus police report that states '' a stolen back pack with an Ipod, some books and a laptop" raises fewer eyebrows. Just listing "a soph student had trouble returning to her Dorm room on sat night, campus police assisted her in her efforts." which is a nice way of saying "sally sorority, while drunk off her a**, was accosted, groped and left partially undressed by 4 guys in the entry way of her Dorm."
The key to stopping a terror attack is intell. For the most part, once the action begins, people die in big numbers. I always fear either a big bomb or a infectious agent at a big event. Imagine a rider truck with 1000 lbs of anfo and a 1000 lbs of nails or bolts packed around it going off at the Rose Bowl or Macy's parade. Or a baggie of bio material released inside the superdome or from the top deck of Volunteer stadium.
Three guys with subguns and a few grenades might get 50 people and believe me that would be horrible, but nothing like 300 dead on the spot and 85,000 infectious people running out in a panic as human incubators.
THAT scares the PEE out of me.
tyr_shadowblade
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2006
- Messages
- 12,693
Are you sure that wasn't an Irish Kneecaper Response Team target?
The IRA used to kneecap with a contact shot. After folks started losing legs to infection, they'd insist that the target roll up the pant leg and fire from about a foot away. In the late 80s, they did the smart thing and switched to the Black & Decker rechargable drill.
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Absolutely. The Posse Comitatus act doesn't allow for the military to be used as a police agency with some notable exceptions. Now the governor may send in the National Guard, all respect to the NG, great guys with lots of heart and not lacking in courage, but how many of you believe they are trained to do a hostage rescue of this type?
Use of Nuclear or biological agents also allows the President to send in the military. How long it would take to get these teams in position is probably also problematic. There are some other exceptions also. I personally don't want to see us turn into a third world toilet with the military walking down the streets in our cities simply because we let our fear get the better of us. That would disturb me more than a few terrorist activities.
KR
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Messages
- 306
"A final comment on the 11 inch shorty M4/CAR-15 vs the MP5/10 or 40. I realize that you use what you can get. However, these comments about getting a rifle caliber vers a hand gun round are for the most part MOOT.
It is very difficult to get a 11 inch 5.56 to chrono over 2000 FPS with most of the ammo available. You might find the odd round that goes 2200 with a 55 grain bullet, but at that speed you are going to not much more performance than using a .22 hornet. It is very rare to get reliable expansion out of a 5.56 at sub 2500 fps velocities. Rifle bullets are meant to function at rifle velocities, If you make a jacket that reliably expands at 2000FPS, at 2600 Fps or 3200 FPS out of a 20 or 24 inch barrel that bullet is going to destruct like a balloon on a pin. at the same time, if you make a jacketed bullet that will hold together and expand at between 2800 and 3200 fps, when it hits 2400 fps, it will act like a FMJ and just drill a little hole."
Really? Where did you read this? Ever seen any type of gunshot wound to a person in real life? Besides, we bought our rifles off the shelf with 16" barrels.
The moot point is that pistol calibers don't even compare to rifle calibers in range and performance.
It is very difficult to get a 11 inch 5.56 to chrono over 2000 FPS with most of the ammo available. You might find the odd round that goes 2200 with a 55 grain bullet, but at that speed you are going to not much more performance than using a .22 hornet. It is very rare to get reliable expansion out of a 5.56 at sub 2500 fps velocities. Rifle bullets are meant to function at rifle velocities, If you make a jacket that reliably expands at 2000FPS, at 2600 Fps or 3200 FPS out of a 20 or 24 inch barrel that bullet is going to destruct like a balloon on a pin. at the same time, if you make a jacketed bullet that will hold together and expand at between 2800 and 3200 fps, when it hits 2400 fps, it will act like a FMJ and just drill a little hole."
Really? Where did you read this? Ever seen any type of gunshot wound to a person in real life? Besides, we bought our rifles off the shelf with 16" barrels.
The moot point is that pistol calibers don't even compare to rifle calibers in range and performance.
- Joined
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Ahhhh yeah, I've seen a lot of GSW's, far more than I hope anyone ever gets to see. Contact wounds to back of head, results of death squad activity, urban fighting and jungle fighting. I've seen 5.56, x51 and x39, 50 BMG, 300 winmag, 9, .38, 45, and some that might have been either .22 or .25. Yeah I have seen a lot of GSW's, some first hand as in they happened right in front of me, some left in the jungle to rot, some coming in on liters to get treated.
My statement was that a rifle caliber needed a rifle length barrel to use it's advantages in powder capacity and velocity. Putting a rifle round in a very short barrel when loaded with powders designed for long barrels gives away so much as to drop them below a pistol round fired from a carbine barrel. If you have 16 inch barrels you are really at the low end of the envelope for a 5.56 with current loadings.
The discussion on velocity parameters vs bullet construction can be found in any reloading manual. This is why you have blits and TNT bullets, game bullets with ratings for size of game and velocity of cartridge. A prairie dog type bullet meant to explosively expand on a 5 to 15 pound varmint, is going to make a massive but extremely shallow wound on a deer or human sized, like wise, a bullet constructed heavy enough for good penetration and expansion into Deer sized game, is going to act like a FMJ at velocities below its design parameter or on animals below its intended size. This is Basic Reloading 101. A FMJ below its velocity limits for tumbling is just a long range drill bit, small hole in, small hole out.
Do yourself a favor and buy a Chronograph. shoot your ammo over it and look and see where real world numbers put you. You can buy 10mm now that get 1440 fps from a 5 inch barrel. That fired from a 10 inch contender jumps up to 2000 FPS. That is factual data. A ten inch barrel contender in .223 has a very hard time reaching 2400FPS with any load in a 55 gr bullet, no chance at all with a 62 or 69 grain bullet. In fact the best I have seen with a 69 grain bullet is just over 1700 FPS out of a Ten inch barrel. adding an inch and half of barrel, will give about 130-180 FPS add-on.
My statement still stands, At the distances police operate, very, very rarely over 100 yards, (FBI stats put the average police "sniper" shot at under 70 yards.) in an urban environment, one can make the argument that a much larger bullet at very nearly the same velocity would work better. I am NOT saying that for a 250 yard shot the Mp5/10 would be better, but with in the parameters of under 100 yards, its works. And it works well.
i see your point guntotin, i would still prefer 5.56 myself even outta a short bbl, but a M4 w/a short bbl does lose velocity fast, i would want the 77gr ammo in the 5.56, at 100 yds and less if the M4 has a short bbl there prob isnt a lot of diff in the 9MM/.40 or the 5.56, my main reason is i prefer the M4 platform to the MP5 platform,
either will do the job, imho the reason most LEOs are going to 5.56 vs 9MM/.40/10MM is the 5.56 will defeat body armor while the pistol rounds wont, without special ammo anyway, and lotsa folks are wearing armor these days.
now put a 16" bbl on the M4 then it way outclasses the pistol ammo carbines, imho.
either will do the job, imho the reason most LEOs are going to 5.56 vs 9MM/.40/10MM is the 5.56 will defeat body armor while the pistol rounds wont, without special ammo anyway, and lotsa folks are wearing armor these days.
now put a 16" bbl on the M4 then it way outclasses the pistol ammo carbines, imho.
I think its good, that our le officials are getting more tools. for sure. if it were up to me (if we had the funding that is) cops would have all sorts of stuff in their trunks to go to, in case they needed it. but within reason. are freakin M4's needed for colleges? i dont know. i dont pretend to know either. but what kind of college do you work on man??? 'these guns are for long distance'... really? do much long distance shooting on campus? assault rifles arent distance guns. scoped bolt guns are distance weapons. assault rifles are for hard targets. ie shooting it out in urban scenarios, where cars and thin skinned buildings are used for cover and concealment. and for defeating some body armor. im not sure theres too many body armour wearing terrorists invading colleges these days. dont get me wrong, im not trying to but heads with anyone but, i just never seen the need for cops with assault rifles for schools. if you cant get it done with your fire and maneuver training (shoot move and communicate) and your pistols, what in the heck are you up against? another '44 minutes'? this isnt iraq, this is college.
"Now the governor may send in the National Guard, all respect to the NG, great guys with lots of heart and not lacking in courage, but how many of you believe they are trained to do a hostage rescue of this type?"
Depends on what national guard unit you call in...
"Now the governor may send in the National Guard, all respect to the NG, great guys with lots of heart and not lacking in courage, but how many of you believe they are trained to do a hostage rescue of this type?"
Depends on what national guard unit you call in...
In case you hadn't read my posts in the preceeding thread, I'll again point out that it's not so much the folks here that we worry about. There's always the chance of a student or staff member "going postal", of course. However, the much greater threat is from outsiders coming in to work various sorts of mischief.
Our first "mass killer", Charles Whitman, chose a college campus as the ideal location for his activities, and there have been a number of such incidents over the years.
With Columbine, schools in general have sort of entered the mass consciousness as a good place to commit such acts.
Adjacent to a high-crime area; we are always aware of the possibility of some off-campus incident "spilling over" to our property. Gang violence, car chases, robbery suspects, etc.
And of course terrorist activity; always a possibility in this day and age. Not much to be done about a large scale, coordinated attack, of course, but there's always the possibility of some lone actor deciding to become a martyr by shooting up the place...
Our first "mass killer", Charles Whitman, chose a college campus as the ideal location for his activities, and there have been a number of such incidents over the years.
With Columbine, schools in general have sort of entered the mass consciousness as a good place to commit such acts.
Adjacent to a high-crime area; we are always aware of the possibility of some off-campus incident "spilling over" to our property. Gang violence, car chases, robbery suspects, etc.
And of course terrorist activity; always a possibility in this day and age. Not much to be done about a large scale, coordinated attack, of course, but there's always the possibility of some lone actor deciding to become a martyr by shooting up the place...
University's new guns.
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