The CAR 15 i was deafened with was an older Colt, 11 inch or 11.5 not sure. They are still freaking loud, as the standard ammo at that time was timed for a 20 inch M16 barrel, I would say 1/3 of the propellent was burned external of the barrel. The muzzle flash was pretty dramatic too. Not the best options, but it was what was available to us at the time. I think he was using old surpluss-ed out M196 ball, I was talking to a person whom we thought could be used as local candidate when someone stepped out of a room at the end of the hall and had a AK in his hands. My role was one supposedly purely political and peaceful (I carried a Commander only at that time because my tender demanded that I carry something, later I would carry a picked up AK underfold as things really got pretty scrambled towards the end) and as I turned my head to see who opened the door, I more or less put my ear about even with the end of the flash hider. At that time, an AK was considered prima fascia evidence of collaboration with the rebels. I honestly think I got a concussion from the burst.
Leg/pelvis shooting is something that came directly out of some Israeli and US Non-DOD experience with people armed and armored when these people had to be isolated. Heads make small targets and are difficult to hit, Legs and pelvis's are highly loaded and highly susceptible to damage from many different weapons. Most body armor does not extend below the belt line, and WHEN the situation arises where it is obvious either thru visually seeing body armor, or watching bullet strikes without effect, the next best option is the thigh pelvis area. This is not "shooting to wound" or any type of movie bravado, but a real and effective method for dropping an opponent with the means you have available. This was started as I say by both the Israeli's and US people who were working with them in anti terror op's. I believe it was mid late 1986 when I attended a seminar which was prompted by the Palestinian/arab attacks on El Al airlines ticket booths at Rome and Vienna. I heard from a guy had just cycled out of El AL's security team that at least one of the shooters, who had killed 13 and injured 70 or more was wearing a vest and it was gun fire to the femor (probably a lucky but missed shot) that had stopped him. At that time a lot of air traffic and large visible public spaces were under threat as it was seen as good for the image of the BG's from their point of view to have such an event. Remember Abu Nidal? However, world sentiment did not see it as they did and the Europeans at least tightened up a lot on the terror networks and really let the CT guys out of the gate. The point was brought up by several about how to counter an armored threat in a confined location and the options were risky head shot, thigh/pelvis shot with a hand gun or shot gun as the highest success rate options.
I was at the seminar to see about the political means to disenfranchise terror organizations.
I later talked to a fellow who was injured by a GSW to the hip during the Troubles in Northern Ireland and from his account, he was immediately out of action, he could not roll, he could not bring his weapon to bear, he could do nothing but lay still and wait for the excitement to be over. He was hit with a 9 mm from a IRA subgun, He said just trying to breath took all his willpower as the pain was incredible.
I left that job because it was not me, I had gone to school to get a social studies/ political science degree and ended up working to try to raise local support for "correct" candidates who it seemed were all incredibly corrupt, and the good guys were really bad, crooked and often morally reprehensible, and the "bad" guys were trying hard to fix a lot of it, but their methods sucked, and their idea of winning hearts and minds was often collecting bodies. I started out optimistic but it was hard to stay on when you do not believe in the people you need to win for the cause, I ended up sick, and sick and tired of working there.
One of the guys whom I had worked with, started a company that dealt with information/security/monitoring and added an affiliate that actually dovetailed with work experience I had in commercial construction. We sold what became the ubiquitous swipe card key locks and access devices. At the time we were selling hard to secure facilities, animal labs, bio medical, gov't funded labs etc, and never even thought about all those hotel rooms sitting there with old fashioned key locks on them, DOH!!! In trying to sell these lock systems, we had a lot of resistance from people regarding "Big Brother" and although that seems to have tapered off, it was a big thing at the time. You did not need to be a rocket scientist to know that if the key had to ask the mainframe if john doe's key was valid for use at this door, then it also kept track of who was where, when and with whom. In almost all cases, we had to work hand in hand with the campus security/police in setting up emergency access and evacuation plans. It was during this period that I developed my feelings about MOST campus police.
If you take the sentence "A 5.56 is not reliable at one shot kills, even to the head, a .308 in the mellon tends to stop things every time" out of context, it seems laughable. But the context was in a countersniper or hostage stand off that it was made. The 5.56 of course will kill with a head shot, provided all circumstances are good, but on a windy, dark night with a pane or two of glass between you and a crack head holding a gun to his baby girls head, you really hope to reduce most of variables. The .308 clearly has had good success exactly in circumstances such as this. This was the point, in a hostage situation, a .308 team was the PREFERRED option. I was not constrained by what platform or tactic was in my employers handbook as you were, I was speaking from what I had seen, and what I had been told by those I know have been there.
I do not doubt that in many places the AR is the best platform available by mandate. It is however, not the best platform available.
I still think that the AR option is not the best for the uses as were described. I would opt for an MP5/40 or MP5/10 (if the FBI would give theirs up) and one of those in the SD model if they were available. IMHO, the SD version is just easier to shoot well. A shotgun would not leave me feeling under armed either.
As to not having frags to soften up a room, you do have flashbangs, and the effective results are often the same. Flashbangs have worked since the era of the british "gammon" or #82 grenade. (if you ever question the bravery of the british tommy, look at one of those things and say, "right, that'll work)
An M60 is medium or light GPMG, although those who had to carry always called it a heavy beast.
I also think that you may have extrapolated your experiences in a few campus's to extend nationwide, very few of the campus's I have attended are in horrible areas. They all have some problems, but for the most part I stand by my assessment that campus police were started to give administrations control of access and information. Except for the few that seem to BE the host city, I think most would benefit from a merger with the local PD for Criminal matters.
There are a few that stick out, University of Chicago was very nice, but in a matter of just a few blocks it looked like Beruit when I was dealing with them. Temple University also was adjacent to and surrounded by some pretty crappy places. The cabbie who took me from the airport to the campus the first time must have gotten a kick out of scaring the bejeeez out people with the route he chose. A thirty minute or so cab ride at mid day and we passed 3 felony style stops.
I think the North Hollywood event and the FBI shoot out in Miami (
http://www.thegunzone.com/miami-ammo.html) probably did more to alter the thinking of police about "what if's" than any event since Whitman, and excluding 9/11. Even more so, I think there are other places to look at, what has worked and what has not outside of the american police academy.
what we are examining now for the first time in a long time, a lot of the world has been dealing with on a daily basis for sometime.
Next time you are at the range and you are just warming up, imagine that torso target as a BG wearing armor, and think about where you would shoot to stop him/her. the T zone on the head is about 5 inches wide, and about the same tall, so get some 2'' masking tape and mark it out with two strips in a t shape about 5 inches wide and tall. Now mark out on the target an area approximates the Pelvic girdle, a isosceles trapezoid about 12 inchs wide at the top, about 8 or so at the bottom and about 5 to 6 inches tall. Add to this the top end of the femur that joins into the hip and you can see you have a significantly larger target that WILL result in the disablement of the BG. (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Human_skeleton_front.svg) If you hit him in the femoral artery or the descending aorta, he's done. If you only succeed in hitting bone, he will be immobilzed, or at the very very least, severly limited in his mobility.
Your posts prove otherwise.
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