We gettin' rifles...

Although I have yet to post to this interesting and informative topic, I've been monitoring it with great interest. Many good suggestions have been made and there is obviously a lot of experience and wisdom at play here, especially from those who have served. Although my experience is more limited may I make the suggestion that perhaps all of the meritorious suggestions and ideas be combined into the one single weapon that may will meet all needs, all situations, and function optimally under all conditions? Perhaps you should consider a weapon such as this...

http://www.lizmichael.com/swissgun.jpg
 
CitizenQ said:
Although I have yet to post to this interesting and informative topic, I've been monitoring it with great interest. Many good suggestions have been made and there is obviously a lot of experience and wisdom at play here, especially from those who have served. Although my experience is more limited may I make the suggestion that perhaps all of the meritorious suggestions and ideas be combined into the one single weapon that may will meet all needs, all situations, and function optimally under all conditions? Perhaps you should consider a weapon such as this...

http://www.lizmichael.com/swissgun.jpg
Click to expand...

now were talkin!!! but with that in the shop, my partner and i wont fit! :D
 
Personally I would remove the spoon/fork/knife option and go with the single Tactical Spork Accessory (T.S.A.). :thumbup:
 
CitizenQ said:
Personally I would remove the spoon/fork/knife option and go with the single Tactical Spork Accessory (T.S.A.). :thumbup:
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nah, why skimp? might as well have both. i wouldnt want to be caught with my pants down, so to speak.

although the spork would cut down on weight.
 
That gun is AWESOME. but to be totally honest, ive seen weapons like this standing in the chowhall lol. There are some lame a** guys around i tell ya that. but, if that soldier feels he needs that, ill let him be. Its the 'tacticool civilians' i see in the gunshops, that actually have guns like this, AND plate carriers too. it kills me. before the invasion, you never seen this fad that much. now? every gun on the face of the planet, even the old surplus czech guns from shotgunnews has to have a 'rail' ...you know, because when youre done at your software job in the office, you may be called by the local swat team, to help clear some buildings. thats why all the guns they own, never had rails, a tac light and laser aimer on it before the war. now, they all have em on it. it kills me. if you want all this crap on your weapon, and want to hump it all day, JOIN THE MILITARY!!. ok, im done ranting.
about the campus cops needing more training. he does have a point there. very good argument indeed. as fas as statistics show, im still not convinced that campus guys need swat type guns and training. I think though, that if i were to have a little more in my budget, i wouldnt spend it on guns, id spend it on fire and maneuver type training. you know, just smart tactics in general. better pt tests too. i see ALOT of women, (and men for that matter) that are OBVIOUSLY not in shape. i mean, it was just plain unprofessional. I mean honestly. these are our cities mech infantry. our front line defense. they are in the trenches every day. you gotta be ready. you cant always be callin for backup when youre entangled with a 200lbs guy on pcp, and youre a lard a**, smokin a pack a day, and your little remote speaker mic just got ripped from your little epaulette, and youre on the ground now. you aint callin for ****. our departments need to take care of their people a little more. you guys need a TON more pt. and real pt tests once a quarter. you know, a little standards. some hand to hand here and there, and DEFINITELY some more bpm classes. for real. i agree that cops are just HORRIBLE shots.
i was at the range not too long ago with my team sgt. and we were just shootin pow's, and this guy all the way to the left, was havin trouble with his glock. so we go over there, and hes explaining how far off the shot group was. this guy was shooting this target at darn near point blank range, just for initial zero, and the whole magazine was all the way up and to the left, and half of the mag didnt even print on the target. he must have shot 2 boxes of ammo, and couldnt figure it out. then he goes, "in on the sherrifs dept" and we were like "ooohhhh boy, we know who were not calling for help lol" I also have a friend on the sherrifs dept, and they NEVER shoot their piece just to keep themselves sharp on their own issue weapon. Im not impresed at all. not one bit. I never see cops trying to better themselves in the tactics and shooting departments, but theres never a shortage of the tackleberries always trying out for the cool guy tactical shooting matches, or all the guys with their privately owned 'sniper rifles' always wanting to try the 'law enforcement sniper matches'.

Im not trying to beat on cops, cuz i respect them alot but, im not sure more guns are the answer. i truly believe more tactics training, hand to hand training, more pistol marksmanship training, and quarterly pt tests are a better strategy. shoot, move and communicate. thats the REAL answer. also, single cops in cruisers is ALWAYS a bad idea. always. you should always have a parter. :)
 
I must admit I've seen some dreadful shooting in the ranks over the years. Bill Jordan, writing way back in the 60s in "No Second Place Winner", said that police officers are required to master very few tools, so the failure to do so is pretty much inexcuseable.
However, there are more than a few officers who see police work as "just a job", and have little desire to master basic tactics and weapons.
When we started the "active shooter" training a few years ago, they sent all the patrol officers through the course.
Later, a number of officers (fortunately no longer with us!) said that they wouldn't do it. They would not be willing to go in an engage a shooter.
I wrote that up in this very forum, and got a lot of heated replies, most of which I agreed with!

Of course, the same is true in any service. Back when I was in the army as a medic, we were issued the 1911. We had to qualify once a year, shooting paper targets. (this was mid-60s)
More than once I saw troopers step to the line, assume a very professional-looking one-handed stance (the norm back then), take aim, and put the first round into the dirt 20 feet out. Not very encouraging...
 
I haven't read the entire post, but this sounds WAY to much like Germany, and I mean the Germany today, which isn't all that great, our fellow knife lover's have to practice with training bali-songs and the cops over there have almost limitless power.
As long as the government doesn't infringe on my knife rights, or gun rights, I'm cool with it. I personally think we should give cops hand grenades, if we're gonna go full auto, why not!?
No Knock police raids on little old ladies with that own shotguns have turned bad in GA, and it's happened in quite a few other places. It's retarded, cops get bad intell and people die. Or some shit head neighbor says your house is a crack den and boom the cops are in the door and you are defending yourself and you kill a cop and you die, yay america! That's my only beef with that. How far is to far?

It's been mentioned, but proper training is a must, just throwing a gun on some guys belt isn't going to work.
 
mwerner said:
I must admit I've seen some dreadful shooting in the ranks over the years. Bill Jordan, writing way back in the 60s in "No Second Place Winner", said that police officers are required to master very few tools, so the failure to do so is pretty much inexcuseable.
However, there are more than a few officers who see police work as "just a job", and have little desire to master basic tactics and weapons.
When we started the "active shooter" training a few years ago, they sent all the patrol officers through the course.
Later, a number of officers (fortunately no longer with us!) said that they wouldn't do it. They would not be willing to go in an engage a shooter.
I wrote that up in this very forum, and got a lot of heated replies, most of which I agreed with!

Of course, the same is true in any service. Back when I was in the army as a medic, we were issued the 1911. We had to qualify once a year, shooting paper targets. (this was mid-60s)
More than once I saw troopers step to the line, assume a very professional-looking one-handed stance (the norm back then), take aim, and put the first round into the dirt 20 feet out. Not very encouraging...
Click to expand...

I agree fully. I mentioned in another thread that 30 years ago, we would have police that would tell us how they were going to come to our combat matches and show us how to shoot. We would be nice and say that we would love to have them come down that the matches were open to everyone. Some did. They invariably would come in last. No exceptions. We had a standing joke that if they had a expert pistol marksmanship badge that they were wearing, they all did, that meant the gun went off all six times. It was that bad. That lack of knowledge of their firearms was just as bad back then. I remember one officer bringing a revolver into our gun store with the hammer cocked. He didn’t know how to let the hammer down without firing it. Another who had been on the force for 30 years was finally required to re-qualify at the range. He went to the range and apparently had problems. He didn’t want to talk to the armorer I assume because of embarrassment, so he came to us. His gun wouldn’t fire he said. On closer examination the gun was frozen solid with rust. That is why it wouldn’t fire. I could go on, but I think I made my point. :D I also need to say that I believe the officers of today are frankly, of much higher quality, more intelligent in general and much better trained than the officers of the past.

KR
 
Hehe- generally higher standards, driven by the litigious environment!

"You hired this moron? What were you thinking? Judgement for the plaintiff..."

Here's a little horror story. Some years back, while we were still carrying revolvers, we ran into a little problem with training. We'd been using the range belonging to one of the neighbor departments, and their legal advisor said they couldn't do that anymore. If there was an accident, it'd be "on them".

So, whilst scratching around for a range, they had me conduct a little training session with a gadget the chief had bought, little infra-red cartridges and a "target" with a sensor. Just draw and point practice.

At the time, we had a female Sergeant who's sole job it was to correct and file reports, and supervise the dispatchers. Still, a commissioned officer of some ten-fifteen years.
When it was her turn to shoot, she came downstairs with gun in hand. No holster. Hadn't had one for years; she kept the gun in her desk, it seemed.
Went downhill from there; the woman was obviously terrified of the weapon, even though it was only loaded with LEDs....
Scary.
 
i see what you mean aristo. bad intel is definitely horrible. i know firsthand. but, thats not individual officer tasks though. thats the stakeout guys, payin closer attention to their donuts, than to the target area. there should be training for them too.
and the polizei in germany are sweet. theyre nice, and very smart as well. they carry state of the art weapons, mp5's, and dogs are very abundant there. im not sure of their tactical training but, at least they have the tools down pat lol. one of the biggest things i think they have on their sides, is their reputation. i only lived there for a few years but, we all knew em as cool guys, but not to screw with them. they WILL beat you with that asp thingy. and it WILL not be delightful. but their highers back them up though. and thats why, most little low level thugs or criminals, always think twice before mouthin off to the polizei. hell, none of us ever did ill tell ya that much. and when they whoop someone, the first thing out of their commanders mouth isnt 'why did you do that?? are you sure it was warranted? is the news here?'
they stood behind their men. I liked it over there. from what i seen, people there were nice, and polite. i mean to go back there as soon as possible too.
as far as police knowing how to use their issue sidearms here? im not impressed one bit. and coupled with their horrendous reaction times, lol, its a sinking ship. but then, if you take it upon yourself to actually defend yourself, youre in trouble too.. its a lose lose situation ...sorry. was just rambling. ANYhow, i dont think its outside the realm of most departments budgets, to insist on higher quality pistol training, better pt standards, better tactics training, and coupling officers together. if theres any money contraints, ANY local marine or army infantry unit, both active and reserve component, would LOVE to come down, and help out with tactics classes and pistol training. 99.9% of army and marine units today, have already rotated thru iraq. so theyll have a little working experience to share.
even some useful suggestions on maintaining pt standards as well. it would be free, and a good use of networking. we try as often as possible, to train with our local sherrifs department. they teach us a few things, and we teach them a few things. its a great deal in my opinion. if not, worst comes to worst, do some dry rehearsals with your own pov's with your partner on your day off. it MAY just save your butt one day. carve some sop's out, in certain scenarios and youll be good. battle drills. immediate action drills. they work, and theyre simple to rehearse.
 
many officers are lacking in the marksmanship area. but consider firearms is only one small, albeit important, aspect of training.

traffic, laws and sections, communication, driving, report writing, court testimony, first aid/cpr, weaponless defense, baton, pepper spray, radio, patrol area/streets, less lethal/force options......

and specialized training: drug recognition, stolen motor vehicles, domestic disputes, internet crimes, sex crimes......

most officers will have training in all these areas to some extent.

i am a firearms insructor, so i preach training in lethal force constantly. but i also understand the need for training in all areas to produce the most well rounded officer possible. if i could train our officers as much as i wanted, we would only be able to field about half as many officers as we do.
 
I see. A hard situation. Well, if our stupid government quit sending our money in space, or to other countries, we'd be squared away... We cant win for losing... dam.
 
unless they supplement the rifles with decent marksmanship training / practise, these university police will be killing more sheep than wolves with those big boys.
 
inspira said:
unless they supplement the rifles with decent marksmanship training / practise, these university police will be killing more sheep than wolves with those big boys.
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not likely. cant imagine any agency sending any equipment into the field in our litigious society without having thought out liability first.
 
inspira said:
unless they supplement the rifles with decent marksmanship training / practise, these university police will be killing more sheep than wolves with those big boys.
Click to expand...

I totally disagree with this statement.

I promise you, even highly trained folks are a much greater hazard to the friendlies around them when they have a PISTOL in their hand.

A cop with a long gun, like a rifle or a shotgun, is MUCH less likely to miss his target than a cop with a handgun.
And bullets that miss the intended target almost always find an unintended target!

In actual practice (not theory) long guns are almost always more accurate and safer in the hands of law enforcement.
 
allenC said:
I totally disagree with this statement.

I promise you, even highly trained folks are a much greater hazard to the friendlies around them when they have a PISTOL in their hand.

A cop with a long gun, like a rifle or a shotgun, is MUCH less likely to miss his target than a cop with a handgun.
And bullets that miss the intended target almost always find an unintended target!

In actual practice (not theory) long guns are almost always more accurate and safer in the hands of law enforcement.
Click to expand...

:thumbup:

The only exception is when someone is armed with a full auto weapon - the spray and pray ethic comes to mind then. Fortunately, I make this as a general statement and not one directed toward the heart of this thread. I feel confident that "spray and pray" will not happen with the university police in this example.

It would be a concern I would have with Guard troops deployed in a urban campus setting following a natural disaster. I say "good for your guys" though the firearms should be extended to all patrol vehicles to allow for rapid response in a shooter scenario.

Plus, add a handful of bolt-action high power rifles for pinpoint removal of a belltower threat. :D
 
Paddling_man said:
:thumbup:

The only exception is when someone is armed with a full auto weapon - the spray and pray ethic comes to mind then. Fortunately, I make this as a general statement and not one directed toward the heart of this thread. I feel confident that "spray and pray" will not happen with the university police in this example.

It would be a concern I would have with Guard troops deployed in a urban campus setting following a natural disaster. I say "good for your guys" though the firearms should be extended to all patrol vehicles to allow for rapid response in a shooter scenario.

Plus, add a handful of bolt-action high power rifles for pinpoint removal of a belltower threat. :D
Click to expand...

many agencies dont have full auto capability, and those that do train little on that mode, and not at all, as far as ii know, on a spray and pray type firing mode.

we train on 2-3 round burst, but mostly on semi, even though our carbines and sub guns are full auto capable.

and more often than not, an officer will fight like they train.

we've been lobbying, again, for a precision rifleman (pc term for sniper), and a spotter.
 
yea, a designated rifleman is a good idea. a nice carbine with a trijicon or some other short/mid range, quick aquisistion optic. its a good idea but, the higher ups "know better" it seems. Like whatshisface conveniently said, "ya go to war with the military ya got, not the military ya want" lol.. while all nice and comfortable in his up armoured suburban lol. Pogue. Ahh well, theres nothing you can do i guess, but keep trying. I say quit messin with the cops in the firstplace, and let them do their jobs. They cant hardly even sware anymore, much less use the proper amount of force necessary to do the job, without gettin harrassed. I give em credit. You must possess a boatload of patience to be in civilian law enforcement man. I couldnt do it.
 
Buddiiee said:
yea, a designated rifleman is a good idea. a nice carbine with a trijicon or some other short/mid range, quick aquisistion optic. its a good idea but, the higher ups "know better" it seems. Like whatshisface conveniently said, "ya go to war with the military ya got, not the military ya want" lol.. while all nice and comfortable in his up armoured suburban lol. Pogue. Ahh well, theres nothing you can do i guess, but keep trying. I say quit messin with the cops in the firstplace, and let them do their jobs. They cant hardly even sware anymore, much less use the proper amount of force necessary to do the job, without gettin harrassed. I give em credit. You must possess a boatload of patience to be in civilian law enforcement man. I couldnt do it.
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patience is definitely a requirement. boatloads of it.

there is caselaw that states the use of profanity is acceptable in some situations. basically, some people will only respond and understand certain words phrased in a certain way.

use of force is a hot button issue. in recent vehicle pursuit, i rammed the suspect vehicle broadside. all on video. another local agency used the pit four times unsuccessfully, so i figured i would try and box him in, knowing he would evade following the last pit.

well, he backed up after ramming another unit head on, and i figured, if i cant box him in, ill try and disable his vehicle and end the pursuit by ramming his car. a technique known as 'legal intervention'.

immediately i was getting cell phone calls from guys who were watching at home, saying "i cant believe you did that!" (because we dont train to use the pit).

luckily, the after action report, corroborated my report, and no investigation is pending. but just the fact that people were worried about what i had done worries me that we have become too "nice".

police work is often ugly, especially when force is necessary. everyone wants us to do our jobs, they just dont want to know what it takes to do it properly.
 
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